Purpose of Prophecy

[Marnie]

Yes, agreed. I am an example of one miraculously healed, so I definitely believe in the present day manifestation of all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. My original question didn't have anything to do with the gifts of the Spirit, which I believe are for all believers, since we are all indwelt by the same Spirit. My original question had to do with offices or ministries in the Church. For example, I believe the office of pastor/teacher is not for all believers, only those called to such an office. Same with the office of evangelist. I have trouble seeing the need for apostles and prophets, especially prophets, since the Word and the inner witness of the Holy Spirit would seem to negate the need for them. Also, I view the role of the pastor, when not teaching the Word, as an exhorter of the Word in the lives of his congregation. In the very beginnings of the Church, yes, I could see the need for those two foundationary offices, but certainly not now with the widespread dissemination of G-d's Word.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Therefore all true prohecy points to this central theme - the mystery of the Church as Paul called it in Ephesians - the marriage supper of the Lamb (Ephesians 5).

I disagree, not all prophecies concern the Church. Many focused on Israel and even individuals.

Also, you appear to miss the difference between prophecy and prophesy. As in, the act of of prophesying is different than what we already have in the written form of Bible prophecy.

Here's some definitions:

PROPHECY

proph

[branchesofHim]

Good points. I can't officially declare one way or the other regarding Apostles and Prophets. But I know that Jesus, the Cornerstone, is still in operation today through His body, the Church. And I know that that God gave the ministries listed in Ephesians 4 for the development of the Church. Also it is evident the Church is "not" mature yet.

"11": And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

(God gave these to the Church ... some does not indicate "some" as in only particular timelines or particular groups. The original Greek text uses the word "some" to give force to a word attached to it to strengthen it.)

"12": For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

("Perfecting" is also defined as complete furnishing, equipping. "Work" is defined in this context as business, employment, job. "Edifying" is defined as building up.)

"13": Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

(The word "unity" in this verse means agreement. "Knowledge" in this text is defined as precise and correct knowledge. "Perfect" indicates brought to completeness. "Man" here indicates maturity from being a child. "Measure" in the orginal text indicates ripe, full age. "Stature" also is used in the form of fitted for the "fullness" = filled with the presence, power, agency and riches of Christ.)

I don't see the Church as being at verse 13 yet. So why would God stop at verse 11?

In Revelation it's written by John that when the marriage supper of the Lamb occurs that His wife (the Church) had made herself ready. Can someone honestly tell me the Church in all it's many divisions is come together in unity as a mature bride wholly faithful to the Lord? Furthermore remember the parable of the ten virgins as told by Jesus in Matthew 25?

"1": Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

"2": And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

"3": They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

"4": But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

"5": While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

"6": And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

"7": Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

"8": And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

"9": But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

"10": And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

"11": Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

"12": But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

"13": Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The church, the bride, needs the operation of God's spirit in everyway to come to maturity and thus "make herself ready".

That's where I think it's most assuredly needed that we properly understand the Word of truth as the Apostle Paul instructed Timothy. Too often I'm guilty of becoming so focused on one particular avenue/aspect of interpretation that I miss the actual point of the scripture. Everything has it's meaning in the proper context. We must remember that the devil would love to get the Body of Christ divided on whether this is now and that was then, dispensationalism, and such. Because divided we have much less ability to gain knowledge with wisdom and understanding. Thus being side tracked from the very reason for our existence, Jesus, we will indeed be unproductive in carrying out the very command of Jesus in preaching the gospel to all nations, all people in the earth. The longer the church is hindered from fulfilling that call, the longer it will be before Jesus returns to take us to where He is. Didn't even Jesus himself say that He didn't know when He'd be coming back, but His Father did? I'm not a scholar by any means. But I do have the Comforter inside who teaches me truth. And my spirit bears witness with the Word that we all have much maturing to do.

Be blessed my brothers and sisters in Christ. For he which has begun a good work in you and I will complete it! Amen.

[felix]

Marnie,

I feel that the "office" of which you are trying to refer to does not exist. There are no "offices" but there are apostles and prophets through the Holy Spirit. An office would suggest that this "apostleship" or "prophecy" belongs to the person; it does not belong to a person but it belongs to Christ. Is this what you are trying to convey?

IF so, this office is already occupied; it is occupied by Christ. There are ministries of apostles, prophecy, healings etc. But these ministries do not belong to people; they belong to Christ.

There is a good reason that many Christians do not know of apostleship and prophecy among us today. If a true prophet were to claim that he was a prophet (and people knew that it was true), then immature christians would flock to this man and not to Jesus Christ. When a person claims to be a prophet very openly (as if to say he holds an office of prophecy) then it is for himself and not for the Lord. This is not likely behaviour in a true prophet for the prophet knows clearly that this is Christ Himself who is revealing these prophecies. So it seems that it is Christ and not himself. We hold offices in this world because we earned it out of our own ability.

I believe that only the mature Christians can know who is truly a prophet or apostle because they will not follow man; they only follow God. Whereas the immature Christian can't handle this. They can only have milk for now until they grow to be able to eat meat. We should know that this is God operating through them as He is operating through everyone. It is not from the mind of man or the self.

The OT prophets are also different from the prophets of today. In the OT, God's Spirit did not indwell man. So that was why the prophets would speak for God in the first person. However, prophecy now comes from within us or spontaneously because God's Spirit now indwells us.

I think AbranchofHim and Whysoblind are very on target.

[branchesofHim]

I must say I have learned in this post. I must also say that what I've learned is confirmation of what I wrote in the beginning. Every thing, every ministry, every gift, and every one is for one central theme in God's Word: Jesus Christ. Jesus was before all things and all things were created by and for Him.

Jesus is the central reason/theme for everything.

John 1

"1": In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

"2": The same was in the beginning with God.

"3": All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

"14": And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus is the central reason/theme for everything.

I. Corinthians 15

"22": For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

"23": But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

"24": Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

"25": For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

"26": The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

"27": For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

"28": And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Jesus is the central reason/theme for everything.

Ephesians 1

"3": Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

"4": According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

"5": Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

"6": To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

"7": In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

"8": Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

"9": Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

"10": That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

"11": In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Jesus is the central reason/theme for everything.

Revelation 1

"8": I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 21

"1": And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

"2": And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

"3": And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

"4": And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

"5": And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

"6": And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely

Revelation 22

"13": I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

It's in Him that we have life. It's in Him we have salvation. It's in Him we have purpose. It's in Him that we live.

Jesus is the central reason/theme for everything.

I. John 5

"7": For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

All glory be unto God who put all things under His Son! Jesus Christ is Lord! The Holy Spirit glorifies Him! Let all God's people rejoice!

Peace.

[Marnie]

Felix,

Thanks for your input. By office, I mean that position occupied by an individual within the organization of the Church. The pastor/teacher is an office. The evangelist is an office. An person is "called" to such an office or position. I don't see the position of "apostle" today, and I don't see that listed in the gifts of the Spirit. Same with the position of the prophet, I see where the Spiritual gift of prophecy, the finished Word of G-d, and word of knowledge has rendered that offical office or position a thing of the past. Those positions were necessary at the very inception of the Church, but no longer.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Marnie

[rollinTHUNDER]

Felix,

Thanks for your input. By office, I mean that position occupied by an individual within the organization of the Church. The pastor/teacher is an office. The evangelist is an office. An person is "called" to such an office or position. I don't see the position of "apostle" today, and I don't see that listed in the gifts of the Spirit. Same with the position of the prophet, I see where the Spiritual gift of prophecy, the finished Word of G-d, and word of knowledge has rendered that offical office or position a thing of the past. Those positions were necessary at the very inception of the Church, but no longer.

Good post Marnie,

I'd have to say that I identify more closely with your thoughts than the others, but I agree with some of Felix' thoughts too. I understand that when you use the term "office" you actually mean "position" so I have no technical problem with that term. No doubt this is a very difficult and controversial subject that's very hard to prove ones case, if not impossible.

Lets take a look at a few passages.

Hebrews 1:1-2

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, (2)but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Matthew 5:11-12

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. (12)Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

The ancient prophets were the only ones filled with the Holy Spirit, so God spoke to His people through His prophets. But now we have no need of anymore prophets because we are all filled with the same Spirit that the prophets of old had, but unlike the prophets, we have also been set free from the bondage of sin. The Bible says that to whom much is given, much more will be required of them. And I believe this is referring to those who have received the Holy Spirit. This is the abundant life that Jesus was talking about, not those get rich quick schemes that many so-called preachers are pushing, and peddling God's Word for money.

John 10:27

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

So who needs a prophet when we have Jesus? Certainly not Christians. I don't believe the world will see another true prophet until the tribulation begins. Then the Two witnesses will begin to prophesy in Jerusalem, to the Jews who don't yet have the Spirit.

I believe the Church has some things all wrong. The Church for the most part, believes the latter rain is a great revival in the Church in the last days, and we've been hearing about this for decades now. But I believe the latter rain is where God will once again pour His Spirit out on Israel for 3 1/2 years, just like He did on the Jewish Apostles at pentecost, and afterwhich they ministered inside the borders of Israel for a few years, until Israel as a nation rejected her Messiah. This is when the Lord called Paul into the ministry to usher in the time of the Gentiles, which is the time between the former and latter rains. Acts chapter 2 shows how and where it began, but Joel chapter 2 shows how and where it will end.

Matthew 20:16

"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

May the Lord bless you all in your studies

Edited February 15, 2006 by rollinTHUNDER

[Guest torahdelight]

I must say I have learned in this post. I must also say that what I've learned is confirmation of what I wrote in the beginning. Every thing, every ministry, every gift, and every one is for one central theme in God's Word: Jesus Christ. Jesus was before all things and all things were created by and for Him.

Jesus is the central reason/theme for everything.

John 1

"1": In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

"2": The same was in the beginning with God.

"3": All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

"14": And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus is the central reason/theme for everything.

I. Corinthians 15

"22": For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

"23": But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

"24": Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

"25": For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

"26": The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

"27": For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

"28": And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Jesus is the central reason/theme for everything.

Ephesians 1

"3": Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

"4": According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

"5": Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

"6": To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

"7": In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

"8": Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

"9": Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

"10": That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

"11": In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Jesus is the central reason/theme for everything.

Revelation 1

"8": I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 21

"1": And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

"2": And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

"3": And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

"4": And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

"5": And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

"6": And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely

Revelation 22

"13": I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

It's in Him that we have life. It's in Him we have salvation. It's in Him we have purpose. It's in Him that we live.

Jesus is the central reason/theme for everything.

I. John 5

"7": For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

All glory be unto God who put all things under His Son! Jesus Christ is Lord! The Holy Spirit glorifies Him! Let all God's people rejoice!

Peace.

Praise G-d for your wisdom in knowing the Scripture and sharing with listening ears! Brothers and Sisters please keep praying that G-d would continue to use abranchofHim for His purpose and glory. The Bible verses you chose truly bring honor to Jesus (Yeshua) and indeed prophecy is to share with people G-d's truth so that people will listen, follow and share with others so that G-d's Will be done. Shalom!

Edited February 15, 2006 by torahdelight

[felix]

Felix,

Thanks for your input. By office, I mean that position occupied by an individual within the organization of the Church. The pastor/teacher is an office. The evangelist is an office. An person is "called" to such an office or position. I don't see the position of "apostle" today, and I don't see that listed in the gifts of the Spirit. Same with the position of the prophet, I see where the Spiritual gift of prophecy, the finished Word of G-d, and word of knowledge has rendered that offical office or position a thing of the past. Those positions were necessary at the very inception of the Church, but no longer.

Good post Marnie,

I'd have to say that I identify more closely with your thoughts than the others, but I agree with some of Felix' thoughts too. I understand that when you use the term "office" you actually mean "position" so I have no technical problem with that term. No doubt this is a very difficult and controversial subject that's very hard to prove ones case, if not impossible.

Lets take a look at a few passages.

Hebrews 1:1-2

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, (2)but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Matthew 5:11-12

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. (12)Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

The ancient prophets were the only ones filled with the Holy Spirit, so God spoke to His people through His prophets. But now we have no need of anymore prophets because we are all filled with the same Spirit that the prophets of old had, but unlike the prophets, we have also been set free from the bondage of sin. The Bible says that to whom much is given, much more will be required of them. And I believe this is referring to those who have received the Holy Spirit. This is the abundant life that Jesus was talking about, not those get rich quick schemes that many so-called preachers are pushing, and peddling God's Word for money.

John 10:27

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

So who needs a prophet when we have Jesus? Certainly not Christians. I don't believe the world will see another true prophet until the tribulation begins. Then the Two witnesses will begin to prophesy in Jerusalem, to the Jews who don't yet have the Spirit.

I believe the Church has some things all wrong. The Church for the most part, believes the latter rain is a great revival in the Church in the last days, and we've been hearing about this for decades now. But I believe the latter rain is where God will once again pour His Spirit out on Israel for 3 1/2 years, just like He did on the Jewish Apostles at pentecost, and afterwhich they ministered inside the borders of Israel for a few years, until Israel as a nation rejected her Messiah. This is when the Lord called Paul into the ministry to usher in the time of the Gentiles, which is the time between the former and latter rains. Acts chapter 2 shows how and where it began, but Joel chapter 2 shows how and where it will end.

Matthew 20:16

"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

May the Lord bless you all in your studies

hello fellow bro/sister,

To clear up some things...

A new testament prophet is not like an old testament prophet. Many people, when they think of a prophet, think of the old testament prophets. They spoke in first person for God like "'Repent! For the kingdom of God is at hand!', thus saith the Lord!!!". Back in the old testament the prophet would have had the 'office' of a prophet (by 'office' i mean the one i was refering to).

Are there apostles and prophets today? Yes, I believe so. Did they ONLY exist in the past during the infancy of the Church? No, I believe not. They are still here because the Church has not yet been perfected. This is why these gifts are here in the first place; the Church is still on its way in becoming a bride. For humans to marry, they must marry other humans....not other species. Likewise for Christ (fully man and fully God) to marry something, it must be just like Him...(fully humanity and fully divinity), this is us as the Church! We are on the path of attaining divinity within our humanity. We are not yet the same 'species' as Christ but we are on the way.

This is the work of the Holy Spirit in us. We are sons of God because WE have the Spirit in us...we were born of the Spirit. Therefore, in our spirit is God's Spirit and this is the divinity in us! It is to let the Spirit of God overcome our soul, transforming and conforming us into Christ.

Ultimately, all the gifts of the Spirit will be for the building up of the Church. The "prophet" or "apostle" that most Christians think of are super-spiritual, independant people. This can't be for this is only for the Body, the Church. They can't be independant. They cannot be alone....none of us can be alone because this isnt the reality of the Church. No matter how spiritually strong a person is, if he is cut-off from the body he will eventually wither away and die.

The "prophet" or "apostle" who stands out claiming the office of a prophet and seems to be very super-spiritual is something we should keep a watchful eye on. Not saying that these brothers or sisters aren't what they are claiming to be (they very well could be). It is just very dangerous....if they grow out and are continously exercising their gift and the members are constantly upholding this function then it can become like a cancer in the body. This is the same for everything else, any other function...a church where all they do is sing...a church where all they do is evangelizing...

A prophet, apostle, or anyone in the church may not always appear to "super-spiritual" but appear to be very normal people in their humanity. Jesus did not begin the ministry until he was 33 years old. Jesus was a carpentar. Although being God he could probably have created anything with wood without even physically touching it...but this wasn't so. Jesus would have appeared very much like the everday citizen.

Brothers and sisters, I am not sure of the idea that apostles and prophets are no longer here because they are no longer needed. I feel that it was born from the thinking that "I don't see any prophets (as in an Old Testament prophet) today so they can't be here any longer". So they find some way to make sense out of it through the Word. I do not believe that it was first "I read the Word and discovered that prophets and apostles don't exist today" rather "I don't see any prophets or apostles today so let me try to make sense out of the Word in a way that would fit what I see or think".

Not directed to anyone here specifically just something relevant........

Concerning the matter of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, take the Lord's Word as it is in faith. Do not examine it in the light of your natural thinking or your mind but with the spirit. Because it is the Holy Spirit that teaches us the things of God. There are many "scribes" out there in the world who may have doctorates in theology, gone to seminaires, who are biblical scholars. Yet these men, though regarded wise stewards of the Word, may know absolutely nothing about God. Who persecuted Jesus? Was it not the scribes and pharisees?

I don't think this [gifts] is a matter of big concern but I think the "Purpose of Prophecy" is very important to see.

[Marnie]

Good post Marnie,

I'd have to say that I identify more closely with your thoughts than the others, but I agree with some of Felix' thoughts too. I understand that when you use the term "office" you actually mean "position" so I have no technical problem with that term. No doubt this is a very difficult and controversial subject that's very hard to prove ones case, if not impossible.

Gosh, I hope I dont come across like I am trying to prove something, I am wanting to grasp this. I figure anybody here knows more about than I do!

Lets take a look at a few passages.

Hebrews 1:1-2

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, (2)but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Matthew 5:11-12

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. (12)Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

The ancient prophets were the only ones filled with the Holy Spirit, so God spoke to His people through His prophets.

I dont think they were technically filled with the Spirit as we understand it today, but the Spirit moved on them. I think the only one "filled" with the Spirit in the OT was Joseph, as that is the OT testimony concerning him.

But now we have no need of anymore prophets because we are all filled with the same Spirit that the prophets of old had, but unlike the prophets, we have also been set free from the bondage of sin. The Bible says that to whom much is given, much more will be required of them. And I believe this is referring to those who have received the Holy Spirit. This is the abundant life that Jesus was talking about, not those get rich quick schemes that many so-called preachers are pushing, and peddling God's Word for money.

Right, that is exactly where I am coming from.

John 10:27

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

So who needs a prophet when we have Jesus? Certainly not Christians. I don't believe the world will see another true prophet until the tribulation begins. Then the Two witnesses will begin to prophesy in Jerusalem, to the Jews who don't yet have the Spirit.

Right, 100% agreement here. I do not think that long haired guy on TBN is a true prophet at all. Plus, he gets it wrong, and a real prophet wouldn't.

I believe the Church has some things all wrong.

Somethings? lol

The Church for the most part, believes the latter rain is a great revival in the Church in the last days,

We have been living in the Last Days since the inception of the Church, right?

and we've been hearing about this for decades now. But I believe the latter rain is where God will once again pour His Spirit out on Israel for 3 1/2 years, just like He did on the Jewish Apostles at pentecost, and afterwhich they ministered inside the borders of Israel for a few years, until Israel as a nation rejected her Messiah. This is when the Lord called Paul into the ministry to usher in the time of the Gentiles, which is the time between the former and latter rains. Acts chapter 2 shows how and where it began, but Joel chapter 2 shows how and where it will end.

Since Peter quoted that passage in Joel and referred to its fulfillment right then and there, at Pentecost, are you saying the "latter rain" began then, and carried on for 3 and a half years? Is that what I am reading? I had not considered the latter rain thing. I recall studying the Latter Rain Movement, which was something that swept across America in the 50's but died out, not before pulling many churhces apart. A typical church fad, much like some of the schemes we see today. Could you expand on the above paragraph, either here on as a private post.

Matthew 20:16

"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

May the Lord bless you all in your studies

And you. Thanks for your input. This is exciting stuff to me.