Purpose of Prophecy

[rollinTHUNDER]

hello fellow bro/sister,

To clear up some things...

A new testament prophet is not like an old testament prophet. Many people, when they think of a prophet, think of the old testament prophets. They spoke in first person for God like "'Repent! For the kingdom of God is at hand!', thus saith the Lord!!!". Back in the old testament the prophet would have had the 'office' of a prophet (by 'office' i mean the one i was refering to).

Are there apostles and prophets today? Yes, I believe so. Did they ONLY exist in the past during the infancy of the Church? No, I believe not. They are still here because the Church has not yet been perfected. This is why these gifts are here in the first place; the Church is still on its way in becoming a bride. For humans to marry, they must marry other humans....not other species. Likewise for Christ (fully man and fully God) to marry something, it must be just like Him...(fully humanity and fully divinity), this is us as the Church! We are on the path of attaining divinity within our humanity. We are not yet the same 'species' as Christ but we are on the way.

This is the work of the Holy Spirit in us. We are sons of God because WE have the Spirit in us...we were born of the Spirit. Therefore, in our spirit is God's Spirit and this is the divinity in us! It is to let the Spirit of God overcome our soul, transforming and conforming us into Christ.

Ultimately, all the gifts of the Spirit will be for the building up of the Church. The "prophet" or "apostle" that most Christians think of are super-spiritual, independant people. This can't be for this is only for the Body, the Church. They can't be independant. They cannot be alone....none of us can be alone because this isnt the reality of the Church. No matter how spiritually strong a person is, if he is cut-off from the body he will eventually wither away and die.

The "prophet" or "apostle" who stands out claiming the office of a prophet and seems to be very super-spiritual is something we should keep a watchful eye on. Not saying that these brothers or sisters aren't what they are claiming to be (they very well could be). It is just very dangerous....if they grow out and are continously exercising their gift and the members are constantly upholding this function then it can become like a cancer in the body. This is the same for everything else, any other function...a church where all they do is sing...a church where all they do is evangelizing...

A prophet, apostle, or anyone in the church may not always appear to "super-spiritual" but appear to be very normal people in their humanity. Jesus did not begin the ministry until he was 33 years old. Jesus was a carpentar. Although being God he could probably have created anything with wood without even physically touching it...but this wasn't so. Jesus would have appeared very much like the everday citizen.

Brothers and sisters, I am not sure of the idea that apostles and prophets are no longer here because they are no longer needed. I feel that it was born from the thinking that "I don't see any prophets (as in an Old Testament prophet) today so they can't be here any longer". So they find some way to make sense out of it through the Word. I do not believe that it was first "I read the Word and discovered that prophets and apostles don't exist today" rather "I don't see any prophets or apostles today so let me try to make sense out of the Word in a way that would fit what I see or think".

Not directed to anyone here specifically just something relevant........

Concerning the matter of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, take the Lord's Word as it is in faith. Do not examine it in the light of your natural thinking or your mind but with the spirit. Because it is the Holy Spirit that teaches us the things of God. There are many "scribes" out there in the world who may have doctorates in theology, gone to seminaires, who are biblical scholars. Yet these men, though regarded wise stewards of the Word, may know absolutely nothing about God. Who persecuted Jesus? Was it not the scribes and pharisees?

Thanks for the lecture and all your advice, but no thanks. I'm not going to go around and round with this, like a dog chasing his own tail, or a car just spinning its wheels and going nowhere. I'd much rather let you believe in new testament prophets, while I disagree. Jesus warned that many false prophets and false Christs would come and lead many astray. I will post this passage again in case you missed it before, because it says a mouthful.

Hebrews 1:1-2

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, (2)but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

If a man told me he was a prophet, or a woman told me she was a prophetess, I think I would have a hard time trying not to laugh. We are the sheep who hear his voice. We don't give ear to the strangers voice.

Listen, I don't believe there are prophets among us today. But I never said I don't believe in the gift of prophecy. I've heard that still small voice and felt the presense of the Holy Spirit. I've had two spiritual dreams and a vision. And the Lord has revealed certain things to me. In these, I was operating in the gift of prophecy. But does this mean that I'm a prophet? Good heavens, no! I'm no prophet, not in the least. I'm just a humble servant and one of His many sheep that hears His voice. I believe there is a big difference between being a prophet and operating inside of the gift of prophecy.

I don't think this [gifts] is a matter of big concern but I think the "Purpose of Prophecy" is very important to see.

I don't believe anyone has hit on the real purpose of prophecy in this thread yet, but there's still plenty of time to hit the nail on the head.

[Marnie]

Acts 11:27

And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.

Acts 13:1

Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Acts 15:32

And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

and yet not one of Silas' words are recorded in the Bible. So he was a prophet, and yet his teaching and testimony is not specificly recorded in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 12:28

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:29

Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

1 Corinthians 14:29

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

1 Corinthians 14:32

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Again I make the point. If the offices of Prophet and Apostle were ended or suspended after the books we call the "New Testament" were written, why is it that so much of the New Testament is instruction on how prophets and apostles ought to behave, and their role in the church? That's like training people to be pilots, and never making an airplane.

Acts 14:14 (Whole Chapter)

Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

Interesting. So here we see Barnabas called an Apostle too. The passage cannot be referring to other apostles, because only the two men were there, Barnabas and Paul.

So the passage in Revelation does not mean that there are "ONLY" 12 Apostles, it just means that these certain 12 have their names written, etc.

Thanks for proving my point regarding the FOUNDATIONAL gifts of apostles and prophets. Since the FOUDNATION has been laid and we are well past the days of the early Church, those FOUDNATIONAL gifts are done with.

[felix]

hello fellow bro/sister,

To clear up some things...

A new testament prophet is not like an old testament prophet. Many people, when they think of a prophet, think of the old testament prophets. They spoke in first person for God like "'Repent! For the kingdom of God is at hand!', thus saith the Lord!!!". Back in the old testament the prophet would have had the 'office' of a prophet (by 'office' i mean the one i was refering to).

Are there apostles and prophets today? Yes, I believe so. Did they ONLY exist in the past during the infancy of the Church? No, I believe not. They are still here because the Church has not yet been perfected. This is why these gifts are here in the first place; the Church is still on its way in becoming a bride. For humans to marry, they must marry other humans....not other species. Likewise for Christ (fully man and fully God) to marry something, it must be just like Him...(fully humanity and fully divinity), this is us as the Church! We are on the path of attaining divinity within our humanity. We are not yet the same 'species' as Christ but we are on the way.

This is the work of the Holy Spirit in us. We are sons of God because WE have the Spirit in us...we were born of the Spirit. Therefore, in our spirit is God's Spirit and this is the divinity in us! It is to let the Spirit of God overcome our soul, transforming and conforming us into Christ.

Ultimately, all the gifts of the Spirit will be for the building up of the Church. The "prophet" or "apostle" that most Christians think of are super-spiritual, independant people. This can't be for this is only for the Body, the Church. They can't be independant. They cannot be alone....none of us can be alone because this isnt the reality of the Church. No matter how spiritually strong a person is, if he is cut-off from the body he will eventually wither away and die.

The "prophet" or "apostle" who stands out claiming the office of a prophet and seems to be very super-spiritual is something we should keep a watchful eye on. Not saying that these brothers or sisters aren't what they are claiming to be (they very well could be). It is just very dangerous....if they grow out and are continously exercising their gift and the members are constantly upholding this function then it can become like a cancer in the body. This is the same for everything else, any other function...a church where all they do is sing...a church where all they do is evangelizing...

A prophet, apostle, or anyone in the church may not always appear to "super-spiritual" but appear to be very normal people in their humanity. Jesus did not begin the ministry until he was 33 years old. Jesus was a carpentar. Although being God he could probably have created anything with wood without even physically touching it...but this wasn't so. Jesus would have appeared very much like the everday citizen.

Brothers and sisters, I am not sure of the idea that apostles and prophets are no longer here because they are no longer needed. I feel that it was born from the thinking that "I don't see any prophets (as in an Old Testament prophet) today so they can't be here any longer". So they find some way to make sense out of it through the Word. I do not believe that it was first "I read the Word and discovered that prophets and apostles don't exist today" rather "I don't see any prophets or apostles today so let me try to make sense out of the Word in a way that would fit what I see or think".

Not directed to anyone here specifically just something relevant........

Concerning the matter of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, take the Lord's Word as it is in faith. Do not examine it in the light of your natural thinking or your mind but with the spirit. Because it is the Holy Spirit that teaches us the things of God. There are many "scribes" out there in the world who may have doctorates in theology, gone to seminaires, who are biblical scholars. Yet these men, though regarded wise stewards of the Word, may know absolutely nothing about God. Who persecuted Jesus? Was it not the scribes and pharisees?

Thanks for the lecture and all your advice, but no thanks. I'm not going to go around and round with this, like a dog chasing his own tail, or a car just spinning its wheels and going nowhere. I'd much rather let you believe in new testament prophets, while I disagree. Jesus warned that many false prophets and false Christs would come and lead many astray. I will post this passage again in case you missed it before, because it says a mouthful.

Hebrews 1:1-2

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, (2)but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

If a man told me he was a prophet, or a woman told me she was a prophetess, I think I would have a hard time trying not to laugh. We are the sheep who hear his voice. We don't give ear to the strangers voice.

Listen, I don't believe there are prophets among us today. But I never said I don't believe in the gift of prophecy. I've heard that still small voice and felt the presense of the Holy Spirit. I've had two spiritual dreams and a vision. And the Lord has revealed certain things to me. In these, I was operating in the gift of prophecy. But does this mean that I'm a prophet? Good heavens, no! I'm no prophet, not in the least. I'm just a humble servant and one of His many sheep that hears His voice. I believe there is a big difference between being a prophet and operating inside of the gift of prophecy.

I don't think this [gifts] is a matter of big concern but I think the "Purpose of Prophecy" is very important to see.

I don't believe anyone has hit on the real purpose of prophecy in this thread yet, but there's still plenty of time to hit the nail on the head.

I wouldn't say this is a matter of going in circles. It's a matter of making things clear. Why would scripture point out so many things concerning instructions for apostles and prophets if they do not exist today?

Concerning....

Hebrews 1:1-2

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, (2)but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

I mentioned this before...THE PROPHETS OF TODAY ARE NOT LIKE THE PROPHETS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. Not screaming but it seems you missed my point. A prophet of today would not really openly claim that HE/SHE is a prophet because it seems like this is coming from Jesus Christ Himself (this is exactly what I said before). Christ is our shepard, we are his sheep. The sheep knows the sound of the voice of their shepard; we too need to recognize the sound of our shepard. When one should prophesy it would be Christ speaking to His Church. If you are trying to say from this verse that because the Jesus speaks to all of us then there is no need of prophets, then that is misguided. If Jesus speaks to all of us then do we need teachers to teach us? If Jesus speaks to all of us then do we need people in the church to tell us what to do? If Jesus speaks to all of us then do we need to seek the counsel or advice of other brothers or sisters? And if Jesus speaks then do we need to have instructions from people on how to cook? Isn't this the same logic you are proposing?

If Jesus warned that there were going to be many false prophets that would lead astray...wouldn't that mean then that there are true prophets? Otherwise it is like saying, "in the future there is going to be cold weather so that means hot weather does not exist". How can there be cold weather in the first place if there is no hot weather?

If Jesus warned this then are there not many false prophets among us today? Are there not false prophets among us in the church right now? Then why don't we see them? It is because people do not recognize prophecy...they still think in terms of the old testament prophets.

Concerning how we all to some extent prophesy....

1 Corinthians 14:24

But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all

When everyone is together worshiping in spirit, then prophesy can occur among the people. I mentioned this earlier as well. I was, by this point, trying to point out the difference between prophesying and the call of the prophet. While everyone can prophesy to an extent, there are people who are called specifically for one of the five ministries: apostle, prophet, evangelist, teacher and pastor. Everyone can operate within the gift of prophecy but this is only occasional. Just like everyone teaches, cooks, or sings occasionally. Yet we have people who are good at teaching, cooking, or singing who therefore do it more frequently. This is the difference.

Concerning your last comment, if you don't believe anyone here has yet hit the purpose of prophecy then aren't you assuming that you know what it is or isn't for? Then what is the purpose of prophecy (and all the gifts for that matter) if they are not for the building up of the body?

[EricH]

The gift of prophecy as recorded in the NT seems to be different from the office of prophet that existed in the OT. Strictly speaking the gift of prophecy in the NT is the aability to tell something that God has simultaneously brought to mind (also called leadings), as opposed to the OT office of the Prophet who proclaimed the inerrant inspired words of God. In the NT, the only people with the authority to write and record the actual inerrant inspired words of God were the Apostles. That ability has not been extended past the original Apostles.

In the NT we see many indications that those with the gift of prophecy did not speak with inerrancy or the authority given to the Apolstles as they recorded the words of Scripture:

1. In Acts 21:4 we are told that the disciples at Tyre received a word through the Spirit not to go to Jerusalem. It should be noted that Paul ignored this and went anyway. If Paul viewed "leadings" as being authoriative on the same level as scripture, he would have obeyed the utterance.

2. In Acts 21:10-11 Agabus prophesied that the Jews at Jerusalem would bind Paul and deliver him into the hands of the gentiles. This prediction was nearly correct, but fell short in a few details. It was the Romans, not the Jews who bound Paul. And the Jews did not deliver Paul to the Romans, the Jews tried to kill Paul, and it was only the intervention of the Romans that saved Paul's life.

3. In 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21 Paul tells them not to despise prophecy but to test it and accept what is good. If Paul felt prophecy to be on the same level as the prophets in the OT, he would have simply instructed them to obey it, not sift through it to see what was true. The children of Israel were never given the option if sifting through the words of the prophets, and deciding which were true and which were not.

4. In 1 Corinthians 14:29-38 Paul tells individuals with the gift of prophecy to speak, and then for the church to weigh what is said.

[felix]

Amen Eric,

Very well stated. You did a lot better job than me.

[Catsmeow]

Prophesy is a wonderful spiritual gift, amongst other spiritual gifts (i.e. mercy, giving, adminstration, teaching, et al). It's one of the most misunderstood gifts and often confused with the "prophet"...who foretold the future in OT scriptures.

[felix]

Prophesy is a wonderful spiritual gift, amongst other spiritual gifts (i.e. mercy, giving, adminstration, teaching, et al). It's one of the most misunderstood gifts and often confused with the "prophet"...who foretold the future in OT scriptures.

Hello catsmeow,

I'm very thankful you sent me that excerpt from Charles Stanley. I thought I'd post a link to one of his sermons on prophecy.

The Gift of Prophecy Charles Stanlely InTouch Ministries

[rollinTHUNDER]

If Jesus warned that there were going to be many false prophets that would lead astray...wouldn't that mean then that there are true prophets?

You could read that into it, but it's only an assumption on your part. Show me some scripture for this assumption. Would you be so kind as to identify even one so-called prophet that existed after the 1st century?

Otherwise it is like saying, "in the future there is going to be cold weather so that means hot weather does not exist". How can there be cold weather in the first place if there is no hot weather?

So, would you also suppose that we go back to sacrificing on the day of atonement as well?

Concerning your last comment, if you don't believe anyone here has yet hit the purpose of prophecy then aren't you assuming that you know what it is or isn't for? Then what is the purpose of prophecy (and all the gifts for that matter) if they are not for the building up of the body?

Was this thread about the purpose of prophecy or spiritual gifts in general? There does seem to be some confusion in that regard.

[Marnie]

Was this thread about the purpose of prophecy or spiritual gifts in general? There does seem to be some confusion in that regard.

I think I started it, didn't I? I forget! But thanks for all the GREAT input. You guys have come through for me again. What a blessing to learn from those in the Faith!

Marn

[branchesofHim]

Isn't that wonderful? Praise God!

Thank you all for confirming God's Word! Bless you all!

Everyone has an opinion. Everyone has a belief. Everyone has "their" measure of faith and they've worked with it accordingly. We are all individual members of His Body and we all have different purposes. However when it all comes down to the "purpose" then we cannot ignore what God intended from the beginning of creation.

Ephesians 3

"9": And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Glory be to God the Father through Jesus the Son with the Holy Spirit who teaches us all.

Everything recorded in the Old Testament was for what?

Genesis 1

26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

(God intended mankind to rule and reign throughout eternity with Him.)

Jesus told the Jews, who were the natural Israel, what the Old Testament was for.

John 5

"39": Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Luke 4

"18": The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

"19": To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

"20": And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

"21": And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

And the New Testament inspiration of scripture told what the Old Testament was for.

Galatians 3

"8": And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

II. Timothy 3

"15": And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

"16": All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

"17": That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Romans 15

"4": For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

"5": Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

"6": That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"7": Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

"8": Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

"9": And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

"10": And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

"11": And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

"12": And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

"13": Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

"14": And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

"15": Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,

"16": That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

"17": I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.

"18": For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

"19": Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

"20": Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

"21": But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

Romans 16

"25": Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

"26": But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

And of course Revelation sums up what the Old Testament was for.

Revelation 1

5: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6: And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9: I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14: His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16: And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

(God fulfills His purpose intended in the beginning through Jesus for all creation.)

Brothers and Sisters in Christ the only thing that matters in all of these Posts is Jesus Christ the Lord. He is the reason for our lives. He is the reason for all of creation. He is the purpose and intent of God in the earth. God always intended it that way. God is holy and God is just. God did everything according to His wisdom from the very beginning of earth to bring Jesus Christ, His Son, into the legal place where justly He could rule and reign thus bringing God glory, power, and might. God already had glory, power, and might in the very beginning. But God in His infinite wisdom wanted to share it with man. Jesus was the way He could and the way that He did.

Everything in the Old Testament is a "natural" example of the "spiritual" truths we all experience today as his "adopted" children through Christ Jesus.

Jesus is the "Purpose of Prophecy".

Let everything that has breath praise the name of the Lord. All glory and honor be unto Him for His mercy endures forever!

Bless you all with grace!

Amen.