Copper Scroll Posted March 2, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 COPPER SCROLL, I agree, but (according to you and others) salvation requires more than believing that God created the world and all life. BUTERO, That is true. In those examples I provided from Acts, you will notice that Cornelius and the eunuch were religious and sincere, but were not saved. They had to learn the gospel message to be saved, which is why God sent a preacher their way. If simply being sincere was all it took, the preachers wouldn't have been necessary. Acts 4:12 says, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name given among men, whereby we must be saved." While there are people who live right, and are sincere in their service to idols like Ala, faith in those idols won't save them. In the Old Testament people faithfully served Baal and Dagon, but it did them no good. In one story in Acts, the people wanted to cover all bases so they worshipped the "unknown god." Again, I still hold to the belief if any man will genuinely seek the true and living God, whose name is Jehovah, they will find him. While idol worshippers are dedicated to their gods, their service is basically ritualistic. I worked at a plant around Muslims, and every day at appointed times, they would go outside and bow toward Mecca. It was a ritual. Christians have rituals, but I'm sure you wouldn't say that Christian practices are "just" ritualistic. I'm sure you agree that there is nothing wrong with ritual itself. The problem comes in when ritual becomes the focus and one stops (or never starts) developing spiritually. I think it would be presumptuous to say that for Muslims it's all ritual and no profound spiritual meaning or experience. If Muslims claim to worship that same God of Abraham and seek this God diligently--and if God rewards those who seek God diligently by leading them to the Christian gospel--why don't hardly any Muslims become Christian? It is not that I desire to judge these people. It is that I know the Bible says they cannot be saved outside of faith in Jesus, again look to Acts 4:12. Also, I agree that your upbringing and influences were different than mine. As such, it is more difficult for you to simply accept something by faith. Hold up there. I don't have a problem with faith. Faith has problems when it encounters ideas that don't make sense. Also, your experience with the Bible is owed to your culture, so it appears that your faith is owed to your culture. Well first of all, I must be honest with you and state I have no respect for the Muslim religion. To me they are the enemy of Christianity at this time. I realize President Bush doesn't want us to look at Muslims in general as our enemy, but nevertheless I do. Even if you might say they are acting on their faith, since their faith is at odds with mine, and they are using terrorists to kill people in my country, they are my enemy. ...And your disdain for Islam is owed to your cultural and political experiences with Muslims. A generalization. (The Crusaders and those behind the Inquisition and the witchhunts were also "acting on their faith", but many say they were not "true Christains" as some say these terrorists are not "true Muslims".) All prejudices aside, there are religions I am more sympathetic toward, such a Judaism. Also because of cultural and political experiences. Another generalization. The problem there however, is that though they are dedicated to their beliefs, without Jesus they cannot be saved (again Acts 4:12). They are rejecting God's Son, and unless they find him before they die, they will wind up in hell. Again, I believe if they are in a dilligent search for God, not just going through a ritualistic religion, they will find him. Somehow he will reveal Jesus to them. So they're not being diligent enough? even the really ascetic Orthodox Jews? There was a question in an earlier post I asked you and didn't get a response to. I want to try once more. I asked you, "Do you believe you will ever get all the answers you seek, to a point where you will be able to believe the entire Bible is the Word of God? You said, I don't know. That's not really my goal. The question I didn't get a response to is, "What is your goal?" I answered this question later in the post you were responding to. I said something like I want Christianity to make sense and to be able to stand up to rational scrutiny. I'm not sure if this is possible. Anyway, it is nice to be able to have a civil conversation with you. I will pray for you that in those areas you are still having problems in understanding, he will reveal the truth to you. Have a good night, and Lord willing I will check back for your response. Thank you. God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 2, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 COPPER SCROLL, ...And your disdain for Islam is owed to your cultural and political experiences with Muslims. A generalization. (The Crusaders and those behind the Inquisition and the witchhunts were also "acting on their faith", but many say they were not "true Christains" as some say these terrorists are not "true Muslims".) BUTERO, No. It is based on 9-11 and the other terrorist attacks, all coming from Muslims. This is a political experience... and a cultural experience... and a gross generalization (even if I agree that sane Muslims should be more vocally opposed to the terrorists who get all of the media attention). Thank you for your answers though, Butero. I don't find these recent opinions/arguments all that convincing, so I may start a new thread on this topic. I don't know yet. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elihu's Girl Posted March 11, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 156 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 11, 2006 I originally (perhaps, repeatedly) posed this question on the Doctrine forum but never got an answer. The closest thing to an answer I got was that old, compelling brick wall "God's ways are higher and/or mysterious." (This is undeniable, but, I hope, there is a more reasonable answer. Perhaps, there is not.) The question is: If God created humans perfect but knew that humans were bound to sin, why does sin make God so angry and wrathful that he would want to punish sinners for eternity? Humans were not "bound to sin" man and woman chose to sin. Why does sin make God so angry? D'insights gives D'Insight hehehe The question is: If God created humans perfect but knew that humans were bound to sin, why does sin make God so angry and wrathful that he would want to punish sinners for eternity? Copper Scroll: Grace and peace to you and all. You asked a very worthy and loaded question: Why Does Sin Make God Angry? Let us, first, understand what "sin" means: A sin is any work of unrighteousness originating from the heart of man for the purpose of establishing words of lies (will or purpose of the devil), using the power of the devil unto vain glory and death. Sins, therefore, are works against the life (knowledge by relationship) of God, against our love (obedience to commandment) of God and neighbor, and against justification (judgment declaring the righteousness) of God. The wages of sin [is] death. God is the Spirit and man was created in His image and likeness, which is spirit. Sin taints, corrupts, reduces and changes a man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 15, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 The question is: If God created humans perfect but knew that humans were bound to sin, why does sin make God so angry and wrathful that he would want to punish sinners for eternity? Humans were not "bound to sin" man and woman chose to sin. Then humans are bound to choose to sin. Every situation presents several (infinite?) alternatives. With limited knowledge and virtually unlimited freedom, we are bound to make wrong choices sometimes and to make mistakes unintentionally other times. According to some, these inevitable errors earn eternal punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elihu's Girl Posted March 17, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 156 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2006 (edited) The question is: If God created humans perfect but knew that humans were bound to sin, why does sin make God so angry and wrathful that he would want to punish sinners for eternity? Humans were not "bound to sin" man and woman chose to sin. Then humans are bound to choose to sin. Every situation presents several (infinite?) alternatives. With limited knowledge and virtually unlimited freedom, we are bound to make wrong choices sometimes and to make mistakes unintentionally other times. According to some, these inevitable errors earn eternal punishment. huh? you say "humans are bound to choose sin." but then you say, "every situation presents several infinite alternatives." that seems contradictory to me. How was Adam and Eve's knowledge limited? God told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He told them that if they ate of it they would die! What else did they need to know! Why not continue to eat from all of the other trees? She had an infinite set of possibilities. Ultimately she wanted to be her own god and go her own way. This is the root of all rebellion against God from when time began until today. Satan introduced... 1. The possibility that God would lie. 2. The possibility that God would hold out on Adam and Eve, that they were missing out. 3. The possibility that Eve could be a god. Are any of these things justified? Why would you distrust the being who practically gave you the world and all creatures? Why would you think, "He's holding out on me."? Satan will always tell you the lie you want to hear. The lie that will knock your resolve, your hope and joy in God's promises out from under you. Why didn't she call on God at this point? Probably the same reason you don't ask your mom about how many cookies you can have before you get them. Y'know blaming God is the ultimate cop out. Adam and Eve did it too. You made this woman God. You made this Serpent God. You made me sinful God. It's all just a colossal cop out that brings your spiritual growth to a standstill. And leaves you free to go your own way. That's what eating the forbidden fruit was all about. I have a choice, God's way or my way. I'll choose my way. This is not an issue of information. Eve knew she'd die. How did she know? God told her. Nowadays people talk about the state of the world. How could a loving God allow the state of this world. People talk about seeing God. Why can't I see God, God should reveal himself to me. But the reality is that though the circumstances change the problem is the same. Eve was living in paradise in the presence of God and she selfishly chose her own way. This does not stem from any lack of information. Blaming God is easier than facing the truth about our own hearts. Edited March 17, 2006 by Elihu's Girl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 17, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Then humans are bound to choose to sin. Every situation presents several (infinite?) alternatives. With limited knowledge and virtually unlimited freedom, we are bound to make wrong choices sometimes and to make mistakes unintentionally other times. According to some, these inevitable errors earn eternal punishment. huh? you say "humans are bound to choose sin." but then you say, "every situation presents several infinite alternatives." that seems contradictory to me. How was Adam and Eve's knowledge limited? God told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He told them that if they ate of it they would die! What else did they need to know! The situation that you describe here (the Garden of Eden) I'm sure you'll agree is a significantly different environment than the one you and I make choices in. In the Garden, God specifically and directly made a command not to eat from that tree. Because everything else was left up to man and man was provided plenty of everything he needs, we could say that the road of righteousness was wide and that of sin was narrow. This is not the world outside of that Garden. In this world infinite alternatives means at least as many wrong choices as right ones. Without specific and direct commands from God, sorting right from wrong out can often be extremely difficult. To answer the question about the limit of knowledge--surely the serpent took advantage of Eve's ignorance in convincing her to eat from that tree. He planted the seed of doubt in her and took advantage of her human will to power. The world was at least as mysterious to Adam and Eve as it is to us, I think. Nowadays people talk about the state of the world. How could a loving God allow the state of this world. People talk about seeing God. Why can't I see God, God should reveal himself to me. But the reality is that though the circumstances change the problem is the same. Eve was living in paradise in the presence of God and she selfishly chose her own way. This does not stem from any lack of information. It does--partially, at least. The serpent took advantage of the fact that God knew something the humans didn't know. The humans wanted to know what God knew. Blaming God is easier than facing the truth about our own hearts. No one is blaming God here for anything. Most Christians believe that God knows everything--including every detail about the future. If God has always known the future, then God knew that man would sin. If God knew that man would sin, then God knew that world would need to be flooded and that many humans would need to be tortured for eternity. The question becomes Why even create us? Now, since I opened this thread and considered some of the responses here--and read more of the Bible (particularly Genesis)--I am at a place now where I am more convinced that God doesn't know everything about the future. God, perhaps, didn't know that man would sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 17, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. God told Abraham that his descendants would be slaves in Egypt.. It could be argued that God made this happen. God knows peoples hearts, inclinations, and habits. This knowledge could be used with intervention to make things happen. God's foreknowledge in this situation could have been simply God's intention. God does know everything. EVERYTHING. Everything that is. The question is whether the future exists. It could be argued that the future does not exist and won't exist until it happens. How is human freedom to be reconciled with the notion that anyone could know everything about the future? If this sort of knowledge is possible, it means that humans cannot freely choose their future actions--because God already knows what you are going to do. Jesus said the very hairs of our heads are number, that is God knows them by count. God calls the stars out BY NAME. Think of that. What is it? supposedly 400 billion stars in teh milkyway? and hundreds of billions of galaxies in the universe? Across about Eleven-Thousand-Billion-Billion-Billion cubic lightyears, and God said he calls the stars BY NAME. Amazing. But the stars exist now--not in the future. This is off-topic. Let's start a new thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elihu's Girl Posted March 19, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 156 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2006 The question becomes Why even create us? Love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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