Copper Scroll Posted March 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Hi EG, I really only gave the yes/no to get rid of the repeated question. I've been on merry-go-rounds with copper before and was trying to be patient, but I see things haven't changed. I like to give people second chances, but I think no progress is being made here. We tried. I resent the implication that I engaged in purposeful trickery. EG's link says that God can't do the logically impossible. I have sought to prove that knowing the future actions of a free agent is logically impossible. Let's just try rethinking our concepts of time and omniscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Copper's logic is anything but logical. I've studied some formal logic and the premises don't support the conclusions. You have failed to demonstrate how. If you can't, what you say here is baseless and irresponsible. The discussion here is not deep at all and the questions are elementary, as are the faulty syllogisms being posed. If the questions are elementary, why did you waste so much time avoiding them? If the logic is faulty, why can't you refute it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 The phrase "the only thing possible" is therefore not a choice at all. I already said that choice requires the ability to select one of at least two possiblities, but if there is only one thing then choice is not involved. Your conclusion is completely unrelated to your question. You are still confusing choice with outcome. Can you not tell the difference? What does foreknowledge have to do with the absence of choice? Not a thing. Foreknowledge is to see that which has not yet happened. It applies not only to choices but to all of life. If I see that the stock market is about to crash, does that mean I can stop it? Hardly. Seeing is not doing. Seeing is not controlling. It's just seeing. So you've demonstrated nothing at all. God can see what will happen without making it happen. I cannot make that any clearer. You admitted that if God knows your choice between two options before you make that choice, then the choice is not a choice at all. (Choice, as you defined, is the ability to select one of at least two possibilities. God's foreknowledge would make one of two, two of three, three of four, etc. impossible.) Since, by your understanding, God knows everything about the future, then choice (by your definition) does not exist. Are we understood on this point? If so, I'll proceed: God, by your understanding, made everything with foreknowledge of everything that would happen in it. Now the question arises, Who makes things happen? Is it us? No. Because what I would do in my life, everything I would "choose" to do, was known by God before He created the world (or as He created the world). Nothing but what I have done, am doing, and will do is possible for me. So I don't "choose" to do what I do at all. The "choices" are already made. Is it God? Who else could it be? He made the world with micro-foreknowledge of what would happen, including everything I would do. God designed me to do it. This is a rational conclusion based on your concepts of time, choice, and God's foreknowledge. I happen to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Nobody is saying God can or can't do certain things except you. We're only saying what he doesn't do, not what he can't do. It would make you more comfortable to say that God doesn't know what I'll do in the future? I already have. Your conclusions did not relate at all to your premises. If you know logic, you know this is the case, and that this is a logical fallacy. You say this without support. How do my premises fall short of my conclusion? I have refuted it, but you just keep repeating it. People walk away from you because you repeat yourself, not because they haven't already refuted you. I "wasted time" because of what I already stated: to give you a second chance. I see that this was a mistake. Goodbye forever this time. No third chances. You refuted absolutely nothing. When things got tough for me, I was able to boil my entire argument down to one simple question. You avoided this question twice. Your answer finally came and you were forced to contradict yourself with it. You were ever-ready to pull the "goodbye forever" card. It's taken you too long for you to realize that you were in a corner the whole time. Now you're trying to save face. How prideful. :thumbsdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Godless Heathen Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Copper's logic is anything but logical. I've studied some formal logic and the premises don't support the conclusions. It might surprise you to know that there are message boards and websites by Christians on the subject of formal logic. But here, the same question gets repeated and we try to get the answer across. The discussion here is not deep at all and the questions are elementary, as are the faulty syllogisms being posed. It's fine for you to agree with copper but you don't have to insult those you disagree with. Being an unbeliever you don't know God at all or the Bible, most likely. You think we're stupid because you don't understand either God or logic. But there are ways to cure your problem, if you are interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elihu's Girl Posted March 21, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 156 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 21, 2006 (edited) Originally posted by 2thePoint: EG: "2thePoint took the bait. But your question is cheating. The only way that God would know that you chose to leave the computer on is because you choose to leave the computer on. If you chose to leave the computer off, God would know that. You aren't stuck going through the motions of a bunch of stuff God already knows. You are making your choices in life fully free! And God, because he knows everything and is not bound by time, knows what you will do." 2TP: "Hi EG, I really only gave the yes/no to get rid of the repeated question. I've been on merry-go-rounds with copper before and was trying to be patient, but I see things haven't changed. I like to give people second chances, but I think no progress is being made here. We tried." I don Edited March 21, 2006 by Elihu's Girl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 22, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elihu's Girl Posted March 22, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 156 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 22, 2006 (edited) Each time I changed the wording I explained why. I was breaking it down to demonstrate how it is skewed. (Obviously unsucessfully as far as you're concerned... ) I should not have said "playing along." What I meant was that sometimes when you don't agree with someone but you want to understand them, you have to take down your wall and walk a little ways in their POV. So you can understand. But, after you understand if you still don't agree then... back you go behind your wall... VERY GOOD ARGUMENT! The things you've said concerning prophesy have really given me pause. However this would mean that God can make things happen in the future without violating the free will of the people involved and without sinning. Judas betraying Jesus? The beating and crucifixion of Jesus? The Antichrist? The people who crucified Jesus? Do these people have free will? Can God "make" them do what they did or will do without sinning? Other Prophesies Though I still think the logic puzzle you posted is flawed, I see that your argument has basis in the bible. There are certain passages which make this area open to intellectual debate. It is a debate that's been going on for centuries. We're probably not going to come to an agreement here. I believe there is a middle ground between the "GOD KNOWS ALL AND DETERMINED ALL Calvinism," and the "God and humans going forth with free will to create the unknown future." God and humans going forth with free will to create the future which God knows. Neither of our arguments are completly explict in the bible, otherwise we wouldn't be debating. From a Chronicle on Higher Education Article: In a dialogue on the sinfulness and impotence of idol worship, the Lord asserts, through Isaiah, the knowledge of all things past, present, and future and the power to intervene freely in the world: "I am God, and there is no one like Me Declaring the end from the beginning And from ancient times things which have not been done. ..." (Isaiah 46:9-10) In Moses' absence, the Israelites have fashioned a golden calf to worship. In response to God's threat to unleash his wrath upon them for this sacrilege, Moses reminds the Lord of his promises to Abraham and Isaac. God then decides he will not destroy the Israelites: "Then Moses entreated the LORD his God ... So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people." (Exodus 3:11, 14) We need to remember our Christian priorities, and the limitations of the Human Intellect. Each of our arguments are only good to the extent that they clarify fuzzy aspects of the bible so we can move on to more important stuff. We'll just agree to disagree. Or at least I will. (Unless you can prove that God's omniscience doesn't include knowing the future. Which you can't any more than I can prove that God is outside of time.) The link at the bottom of my last post is still a really good read! Here it is! Ask, Seek, Knock Prayerfully and you shall find. There's absolutely nothing wrong with seeking the truth. Edited March 22, 2006 by Elihu's Girl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 22, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 Edited in: on the following point: VERY GOOD ARGUMENT! The things you've said concerning prophesy have really given me pause. However this would mean that God can make things happen in the future without violating the free will of the people involved and without sinning. Judas betraying Jesus? The beating and crucifixion of Jesus? The Antichrist? The people who crucified Jesus? Do these people have free will? Can God "make" them do what they did or will do without sinning? I think there is a significant difference between God's occasional, or even frequent, intervention to influence or even control a person on one hand and God determining a person's every thought and action during Creation on the other hand. The former, while restrictive, still allows for freedom. The latter does not. Each time I changed the wording I explained why. I was breaking it down to demonstrate how it is skewed. (Obviously unsucessfully as far as you're concerned... ) I want you to understand why. In my last post, I wrote that "you basically state that God's knowledge is contingent upon what I choose. This can't be, because God has this knowledge long before the choice is made. Rather, the 'choice is contingent upon God's knowledge--which means the 'choice' really ain't there at all." We'll just agree to disagree. Or at least I will. Alright. Thanks for you input. I'm not sure if this (apparently) difficult issue will have anymore takers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Godless Heathen Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 EG, what you are missing on CS's logical statement is the premise that there are only 3 choices. This is for the purpose of the statement. You could say the choices are infinte but that god knows which choice you will make. Anyway, let's look at this from your position that god is outside of time and space. We see time in a linear fashion but god does not see time this way which means what? It means that god sees all things and all events at once. This is possible because god brought all things and all events into being all at once. At the moment of creation, to god, the beginning and end and every moment in between "happened" at once. Your birth and death and every moment of your life was created and destroyed at the same "time" just as everything else. To us we would seem to be traveling foreward through time moment by moment because this is how our mind interprets the events of creation. So, if god created and saw every action you ever took then you have no way to change those events. To view that in a linear fashion (as we do) your response to this post already happened from gods point of view. This means that you cannot do anything other than what god has already seen (created). To do anything other than what god created (and saw) would mean that YOU could change what god has already seen which can't happen. You MUST do exactly as god wills (created) otherwise god is watching events unfold in a linear fashion such as we see time unfolding. This puts god inside time with us instead of outside of time. This would preclude god from being omniscient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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