Openly Curious

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  1. Jesus is NOT an angel in which you "are" believing and teaching that is a wrong assumption on your part. Michael is an actual angel and Jesus is the Son of the living God. Jesus and Micheal do not have the same role or purpose. Perhaps you skimmed over Hebrews 1 concerning Jesus and the angels vs. 5)...For unto which of the "angels" said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son...6) And again when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let the angels of God worship him...7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire...8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom...........13) But to which of the angels saith he at any time, Sit on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool?...14) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Scripture plainly and forthrightly tells us that God never told any of the angels (including Michael) -that they were his Son-that they were begotten of the Father-that Father God would be a Father to them-or that the angels would be a Son to the Father. But God told the angels whenever he brought his Son Jesus into this world that they were to worship him. God also told the angels that he made them spirits his ministers. But God told Jesus that his throne was to be for ever and ever. But God never told any of his angels not even Michael to Sit on his right hand until he made his enemies his footstool. But he instead told the angels they "ALL" were ministering spirit who were being sent forth to minister to those who would be heirs of salvation. And that is the God given role that has been given to the angels even Michael the archangel is only a ministering spirit. Jesus and Michael are not one in the same as you claim. Michael is a ministering spirit and Jesus is the Son of God as they have different functions and purpose. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God their is no need to take on a role of an angel for he is King of kings and Lord of lords. Angels are not figures as you referenced them to be in the OT. There are however figures, types and shadows in the OT that are given to us. But angels are not figures of Christ as I have shown from Hebrews 1 but angels are spirits who minister to them who shall be the heirs of salvation. The scripture in Rev 22:9 is not a picture of John worshiping the angel of God in the NT. The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the role he would play during the end time events that will be happening in the earth was being revealed or shown to John by an angel of the Lord who showed and made known to him all of the things he wrote down in Revelation that he was to send out to the seven churches in order that they would have this knowledge as Christ is not finished in this world yet. You can in Revelation 1:1-3 see what the role of this angel was in John's life. John wanted more than one time to worship the angel who was showing him and making known the meaning of the things he saw but the angel stopped him and told him not to worship him but to worship God. Because the angel was only a fellow servant of God just like John himself was a servant of God and for him to worship God instead (Revelation 19:10). In the scripture you gave you can see the exact same thing happening as was going on in Rev 19:10 but John never ever once worshiped an angel like you are claiming. The captain of the host of the Lord in this passage was an angel who was captain of the army of God. Just as Joshua was the earthly captain of the army of the children of Israel. It was like the servant of Elisha or Elijah when God opened up his eyes he saw the army of God that was encompassed about them and they were more in the army of God than they was in the earthly armies that was surrounding them as God fought for them. Same thing going on in this passage Joshua was by Jericho and he happened to look up. When he did he saw a man over against him that had his sword drawn out in his hand. Joshua went over to this man and he asked him if he was for them (on their side) or was he on the enemies side. The man said he wasn't on their side nor was he their enemy. But the man began to reveal to Joshua just who he was and for the purpose in which he came as the captain of the army of God or his angels. When Joshua realized who this man actually was, an angel who just happened to be captain of the Lord's host (army of angels) whom God had sent to him letting him know the army of God's angels was with him. The walls of Jericho was about to be divinely pulled out from under the feet of the enemies of the children of Israel. The enemies of Israel was about to face the children of God eyeball to eyeball as that protecting wall that was surrounding them was about to be divinely jerked out from among them by the Lord's host as it was soon to fall. However the scripture never says Joshua worshiped the angel (captain of the Lord's host). But it says after he finds out who the man is in verse 14....And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant. It says Joshua falls on his face to the ground and did worship then afterward he says to the angel or captain of the Lord's host What is it that his lord wanted to say to to him his servant. It never says once Joshua fell down and worships the captain of the Lord's host it just says after he finds out who the man really is he falls down and worships. But it is very clear that Joshua did not view the captain of the host as God but he recognized him as a heavenly messenger sent to him by God or he would have never asked What was the message that God wanted to give to him. It is only your assumption that Joshua worshiped the angel or the captain of the Lord's host as it is not in the text. It is not okay to worship angels at anytime be it in past, present or future tense it is a no, no forbidden by God. I'd like to see this in the commentaries, which one do you find it in either directly or implying it? Micheal is not Jesus and Joshua was not the captain of the host of the Lord who came with sword saying he was ready for war. That was not the message Joshua got from the Lord through the angelic messenger being the captain of the Lord's host. But Joshua was told by the messenger to take off his shoes for the place where he was standing was holy ground.....and not that he was ready for war. The natural (carnal) mind is a enemy toward God as the natural mind understandeth not the things of the Spirit. I am most curious what garments you would expect Jesus to come out to battle in. The scripture you are referring to is part of a prayer that Jesus prayed for the church or those who would come to believe on him through the witness of other believers after he was gone from this earth. The 17th chapter is also dealing with how the Father had been glorified and seen in the life of Jesus his Son by the works God did through him. Both were one as one was not without the other. Jesus wants to be glorified and seen in our personal life in the same manner that the Father was seen living in his he want us to be one with him as he was one with the Father. Our fruit needs to be unto righteousness and not fruit unto death.
  2. I agree an old thread being rehashed doesn't take away it's validity. Neither does it take away the the error found within it no matter what the subject of the topic may be that is being rehashed. The scriptures in Hebrews 1 clearly show that in these last days we are living in that God is speaking unto us (mankind) directly through his Son Jesus Christ (the Word). God in the past or in OT times spoke unto the fathers by using the prophets as God would move upon them at different times and in different manners. You seem to see a distinction between angels and God but cannot seem to see a distinction between the voices of the two (God and angels) as being seperate. Which does not diminish the fact that God uses his angels as ministering spirits. No, but you have issue with the nature of God which is not the nature of angels nor the nature of Adam. The angels bow down and worship God and cry holy, holy, holy using their own voices and not the voice of God. There are all kinds of types and shadows and figures that are being used in the OT that are just that figures, types and shadows of things to come pointing us to Christ Jesus that would be born into the world through the virgin Mary His Father being God Himself. If in the OT scripture it is describing a being as an "angel" or looking "like an angel" then it is an angel and not God. Being a type, shadow or figure of Christ Jesus that was still yet to come. What evidence are you referring too that shows that the voice of an angel has the same function as Jesus? Absolutely Not Even One of the angels from the highest ranking to the lowest ranking angel that was created by God, "function" was to die for the sins of the world. No voice of any of the archangel found in the bible function was equal to that of Jesus that was to come. They are not one in the same nor have the same function. Even if you think they are in your personal thoughts it isn't true. No archangel's voice function was that of Christ Jesus our Lord whose soul purpose and function was to suffer the cross shedding his blood and giving his own body as the sacrifice for the sins of man. Show me in scripture where the archangel's function was to die for the sins of man.
  3. Satan uses temptation be it believer or unbeliever to get us to sin against God to destroy one's life anyway he can to entice a person. Satan is a liar and has been from the beginning as he lied to Eve deceiving or tricking her into eating of the forbidden tree and given it to Adam to eat. Satan has been using lies ever since the beginning of time and YES he plants thoughts in the minds of even Christians to be the instruments of iniquity (sin, unrighteousness or wrong doing) and that even includes Christians being tempted to shoot their own just as Cain killed his brother Abel because his own works (deeds) were evil (sinful).
  4. Remnantrob, The question of the thread was, "Is the voice of the Son of God, the voice of the Archangel"? Absolutely Not! MissMuffet clearly through the scriptures she brought to this old thread showed very clear and precisely that Jesus and angels are not the same thing. But you rejected those scriptures can't help you in that regard. I'll put it to you like this and then I'll leave it up to you. God can use any of his created beings as spokesman but the vessel used is not the voice of God in the literal sense, but instead you hear the voice of the spokesman being used. You do not actually physically hear what the sound of the voice of God really sounds like. But every one hears the intended message from God that he wanted to hear it through the spokesman's natural voice. Be it a donkey's voice, a preacher voice, a prophet's voice, an archangel voice be it Gabriel or Micheal, an evangelist's voice, a teacher's voice, or other angel's voices. All are only spokesman with their own natural created voices God gave each of them as a created being. And it is not the actual sound of the physical voice of God that he has as his own. God has many ambassadors in which he merely uses to speak his messages forth in this earth but still it is not the actual sound of God's own voice speaking but the ambassadors voices in which we hear that he is merely speaking through. One day we will all know what the actual voice of God sounds like in our own ears without him having to use messengers of any kind from his created beings. In scripture I believe in 1 John 3 it says we are the sons of God. But I know I do not possess God's own voice I only possess the voice I was given as a created being and that voice God can use if he so desires at any given time. But I remain lowly and humble at heart as my voice or angels voices couldn't do anything on it's own, even if God chooses to use it. It is God's power and we are not one and the same being. The voice of the Son of God (Jesus, the spoken word of God) is his own voice that was in the bossom of the Father (John 1) but the voice of the archangel is it's own given voice by God even though speaking on God's behalf. The archangel is only a created being. I have failed to see the point of your discussions in this old thread. But one day we will hear that powerful voice that can speak things into existence from nothing (the spoken Word of God Jesus from the beginning) for ourselves without the voices of spokesman being used. And HIS voice will not and does not belong to any of the created beings in which God created whether in the heavens or in the earth.
  5. It is the archangel that comes along "with" the Lord when he descends from heaven that gives the shout with his voice and gives the trumpet blast gladly "hearlding" (making known) the Lord's coming. God is not alone when he descends from heaven but the archangel accompanies him giving the shout and blast of the trumpet and not the Lord himself as once again he is not alone when he descends from heaven.
  6. I think it literally means not to touch or lay your hands on God's people with the intent to harm them in any way. Go back and read in the OT how David treated King Saul. David had so many opportunities many times over to physically harm and even take Saul's life away from him but he never did because he was anointed by God to be King.
  7. #1. Do you not comprehend that Jesus was GOD Himself actually living inside a fleshly or physical body subjected to temptations just as we are. The only difference is that Adam was not the earthly father of Jesus and therefore he was not shaped in iniquity or born with a sinful fallen nature of Adam. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus having an advantage over us. But that Jesus's Father was God and he was born into this world by a virgin called Mary, having not the sinful fallen nature of Adam. It says in Hebrews 4 That we have a high priest that was in all points touched with the feelings of our infirmities. Christ went through the same temptations, struggles, and sufferings in this life on earth just as we have to go through but yet Jesus did not sin he was blameless. There was no one within the human race that could be the sacrifice for the sins of man for all stood guilty before God as all had sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice that was given to mankind to take away the sins of the world. Jesus was the ransom price to redeem mankind as there was not another that could take his place he was that perfect sinless sacrifice for sin. #2. The scriptural references you asked for regarding the first Adam (his "disobedience" making many sinners) and Jesus the second Adam (Christ "obedience" making many righteous). Romans 5:12-21 - (14 d)...who is the figure of him that was to come. (vs. 19)...For as by one man's (Adam)"disobedience" many were made sinners, so as by the "obedience" of one (Jesus Christ) shall many be made righteous. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, 42-50 (emphasis vs. 45-47) It is all in the scripture just have to read it.
  8. Baa-humm-bogg Personally I don't celebrate it.
  9. #1. Jesus never had the nature of Adam as he was not the earthly father of Jesus. It was the Holy Spirit that overshadowed Mary still yet being a virgin and she became with child at that moment. The Father of Jesus was God Himself and he never had a sinful nature from his birth to the cross he bore the divine nature of God as Jesus was God in the flesh and never sinned once. Jesus was that spotless lamb the sacrifice for the sins of the world. #2. Jesus is only considered the second Adam in that through one man's "disobedience" being Adam in the garden as he disobeyed the law of God to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The result was that "death" passed upon the whole human race as every one from that point on would be born in sin with a sin nature a slave to sin, and would have to die a physical death because of one man's disobedience (Adam's). From that time on sin began to abound (grow & increase) in the world. A sinless innocent world from the beginning now began being filled with sin such as Cain murdered his brother Abel as sin began to abound more and more. The second Adam is referring to Christ not that he had the sin nature of Adam. But that as Adam's disobedience brought death and sin in the world and it began to grow and increase in the world. It is through one man's "obedience" (Christ Jesus) to God that would bring life and grace to the hearts of man as they would become a new creature in Christ a partaker of his divine nature set free to walk in the Spirit no longer a slave to sin. Jesus was obedient even to the death of the cross as he humbled himself being obedient to his Father's will. Jesus was sinless his entire life and his Father was God. And just as in the beginning Adam's disobedience brought death and sin into the world. Through Jesus obedience up to the cross brought grace to the hearts of mankind and "grace" began to abound more and more in the world bringing life to mankind through repentance of sins and turning to God. Grace abounds more and more in the world as people turn to Christ and allows him to change them as they turn from theirs sin and start walking with the Heavenly Father once again as fellowship once broken is restored and grace increases in the world. #3. But Jesus did not ever have the nature of Adam as he was never the earthly father of Jesus. Jesus was God in the Flesh and his Father was God Himself.
  10. By obedience actually practicing the things the Bible says.
  11. Something such as grace and truth are distinguishable and can be detected or observed (seen) especially as being separate or different from one another. Certainly grace is found in the truth but if you do not respond to the truth in faith you will not receive the gift of grace that comes through faith. God being gracious or kind to the godly and ungodly in this world is not the same gift of grace that is given at the time of salvation as God is good to everyone but the ungodly are still unsaved and have not the gift of grace we are saved by through faith. They are separate and can be separable and very much distinguishable.
  12. I have no idea where in the scripture you are coming up with this 3 year timeline to become born again. The scripture teaches that none of us have the promise of tomorrow let alone another 3 years to get born again. Having no promise of tomorrow means that now is the acceptable time to accept Christ as your Savior and Lord. There are so many things that can happen in between right now and tomorrow where one may never ever get the chance again to repent of there sins. One can die in there sleep, one could be killed in a car accident and so many other things that could happen to where they never have the chance to call on the name of the Lord. The scriptures teach the opposite of what you are telling people as right now is the acceptable time to be saved and not put it off thinking you have 3 years timeline to do it in that is bogus.
  13. Not really
  14. But you can have one without the other as I've said therefore they can be separable. Grace can be omitted by way of rejecting the truth for it is a gift from God separate from the truth.