Cyrrylia Posted April 17, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 37 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2006 Oops. I am dreadfully sorry. It turns out that I am the one who missunderstood. I thought that it was being said that I said that kant was the only way for Athiests to have morals withought God. Buuut, I was wrong. The reason I did not catch that was because yall kept quoting what I said. I know what I said. I just aparently did not know what you said. Oops. Before you say, "No, you're wrong," I challenge you to show how this doesn't work and how it's wrong. Provide a justification for absolute morals without God. Objectivism. I hate that stupid system, but it exists. You do a very, very good job arguing the atheistic perspective. Too good. Would you mind, just so we know where you stand, what Jesus means to you? Is it realy that hard to see it from their side? I honestly think that if you can not argue their side, your faith is not as strong as you think it is. My reasoning is that you must be afraid of even pretending to consider such an idea. If your faith was indeed strong, you sould easily go and think about the possibility, withought any problems because you would be so convinced that it would not matter. Hence I can. I know Atheists are wrong. So much so that I can entertain the notion without any problems. Also, questioning one's motives doesn't mean someone cannot be "nice." Your statement indicates to me you have failed to understand Biblical servanthood and how it is different from "good deeds." Would you clarify please? Could you? I do not understand your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted April 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2006 Objectivism. I hate that stupid system, but it exists. It fails because it assumes what makes us happy is actually correct. It has to assume absolutes in order to justify absolutes. Therefore, there is no justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrrylia Posted April 17, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 37 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2006 It fails because it assumes what makes us happy is actually correct. It has to assume absolutes in order to justify absolutes. Therefore, there is no justification. You have to assume something somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted April 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2006 It fails because it assumes what makes us happy is actually correct. It has to assume absolutes in order to justify absolutes. Therefore, there is no justification. You have to assume something somewhere. The problem is it's a circular assumption. It lacks justification and they must inevitably rely on Sartre's applying the "athiestic leap of faith" which is absurd because it lacks logic and rational thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted April 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted April 17, 2006 You do a very, very good job arguing the atheistic perspective. Too good. Would you mind, just so we know where you stand, what Jesus means to you? Is it realy that hard to see it from their side? I honestly think that if you can not argue their side, your faith is not as strong as you think it is. What? I have to argue Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Polytheism, agnosticism, atheism from their side in order to be strong in my faith? That makes no sense. The best way to recognize a fake dollar is to know the true dollar, not know every false dollar out there. What do you know about Jesus? My reasoning is that you must be afraid of even pretending to consider such an idea. Have you ever heard of the definition for the word "assume." Again, I ask you to share just where you stand with Jesus. I need to know if if we are debating here with an agnostic or a Christian (since you said you aren't an atheist elsewhere, I won't ask that) or other? I ask a a sub-administrator to this Board. If your faith was indeed strong, you sould easily go and think about the possibility, withought any problems because you would be so convinced that it would not matter. I "should"? Would you please show me the Biblical mandate for this? What concerns me with your defense is that your words come across with conviction, not distant. Hence I can. I know Atheists are wrong. So much so that I can entertain the notion without any problems. OK - if you are in love with Jesus, why would you even want to entertain the notion? Also, questioning one's motives doesn't mean someone cannot be "nice." Your statement indicates to me you have failed to understand Biblical servanthood and how it is different from "good deeds." Would you clarify please? Could you? I do not understand your question. Before I answer, I need to know what you understand about Biblical servanthood so that I can have a frame of reference from where to begin. What do you understand servanthood to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrrylia Posted April 17, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 37 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2006 The problem is it's a circular assumption. It lacks justification and they must inevitably rely on Sartre's applying the "athiestic leap of faith" which is absurd because it lacks logic and rational thinking. Are you sure? All it does is assume that what is in ones rational self interest is right. That is the only thing it has no justification on, because you can not realy justify anything at that point. And I am only vaugly (and I mean vaugly) aware of who Sartre was. Care to share? What? I have to argue Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Polytheism, agnosticism, atheism from their side in order to be strong in my faith? That makes no sense. That is not what I said. I said that you should be able to, if you wanted. You do not have to, but it should be possible. That is why I said "If you can not" then something is wrong. The best way to recognize a fake dollar is to know the true dollar, not know every false dollar out there. A nice invalid analogy. Both it is inherently flawed, and in that it does not go against what I said. What do you know about Jesus? What do you want to know? Have you ever heard of the definition for the word "assume." Um yes. I assume a lot of things. Everybody does. If we did not assume, we would never get anywhere in life. Again, I ask you to share just where you stand with Jesus. I need to know if if we are debating here with an agnostic or a Christian (since you said you aren't an atheist elsewhere, I won't ask that) or other? And again, I tell you no. I am not an Agnostic either. I dislike Agnostics. They are just indessisive Athiests. Even worse than a normal Atheist. I "should"? Would you please show me the Biblical mandate for this? That is the last time I go and type on a laptop. The keyboard is so scrunched up, it is difficult for me to type. What I mean was that you should be able to. Not that you have to. It should have been clear in the beggining. What concerns me with your defense is that your words come across with conviction, not distant. How can they? This is the internet. My words should come across with nothing. OK - if you are in love with Jesus, why would you even want to entertain the notion? So you can better understand the mindset of your fellow man. I obviously know nothing of this Biblical Servanhood, because I have never heard of it. Which I find odd. You would think it would have shown up somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted April 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted April 17, 2006 Cyr - you sure are good at avoiding talking about Jesus. Why? Please answer clearly - is Jesus your Savior and Lord? *** My security in my faith has nothing to do with my ability to debate other viewpoints. Does one have to have the ability to express Marxist beliefs in order to be strong in one's belief in Capitalism? It's the same idea. For your info - My reasoning is that you must be afraid of even pretending to consider such an idea. Your reason is flawed. I know this because you came to the wrong conclusion. You assumed wrong. Your statement is false. *** I'm trying to avoid making assumptions with you, so I am asking you for clarification - but you are not clarifying. Why? *** Servanthood - The concept of Biblical servanthood is that you serve one another out of love for the other; you seek the good of the other; you sacrifice of yourself in order to save the life of another. You do not do this because "it makes you feel good" or "better your afterlife". You do this with no thought for yourself - other than to please the Lord. As the Salvation Army puts it: A heart to God and a hand to man. I can show you the Scripture verses if you are interested. *** So, going back to the comments that led to this: In the other discussion with atheists, the reason they kept giving for helping others had to do with how it made them feel good. I saw no comments indicating being more concerned for another beyond themselves. This is what I meant by selfishness. Love thinks not of its own interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrrylia Posted April 17, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 37 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2006 (edited) Cyr - you sure are good at avoiding talking about Jesus. Why? Please answer clearly - is Jesus your Savior and Lord? I have answered clearly twice. I am not telling you. My security in my faith has nothing to do with my ability to debate other viewpoints. Does one have to have the ability to express Marxist beliefs in order to be strong in one's belief in Capitalism? It's the same idea. Actualy, I would say so. I am a Laissez-faire Capitalist, but I can argue from the side of a Communist or an Anarchist, in various forms. I have to, or else how can I be sure I know what I am talking about when I say that it is the overall best type of economy? The concept of Biblical servanthood is that you serve one another out of love for the other; you seek the good of the other; you sacrifice of yourself in order to save the life of another. You do not do this because "it makes you feel good" or "better your afterlife". You do this with no thought for yourself - other than to please the Lord. As the Salvation Army puts it: A heart to God and a hand to man. Soo...you do have thought for yourself. To please the Lord. In the other discussion with atheists, the reason they kept giving for helping others had to do with how it made them feel good. I saw no comments indicating being more concerned for another beyond themselves. This is what I meant by selfishness. Well yeah. Save Jesus, I would be hard pressed in believing any action anybody does is completely selfless. For an Atheist "Because I feel good doing it" basicaly means that they are indeed concerned, so to show this concern they help, and they get the "reward" of feeling good. Maybe the Athiests you spoke to had a problem completely telling you their feelings. Edited April 17, 2006 by Cyrrylia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted April 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted April 17, 2006 You are doing a much better job explaining atheism than Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted April 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted April 17, 2006 Cyr - you sure are good at avoiding talking about Jesus. Why? Please answer clearly - is Jesus your Savior and Lord? I have answered clearly twice. I am not telling you. You have some problem with confessing Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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