Are Christians Guilty?

[Guest shiloh357]

Those scriptures have nothing to do with this conflict. Israel of today is far from being a holy nation. They are a wicked secular worldly nation that is not following God. How can those who do not follow God's plan be thought of as His chosen? In the Bible when the children of Israel disobeyed God, He was going to disown and destroy them. It was only through the pleading and intercession of godly men like Moses that they were spared. If it weren't for the grace of God in this New Covenant age, they would most likely have been wiped out by God's wrath. God will destroy the wicked which includes the Israeli and Jewish wicked. The chosen will be gathered from all races and countries, the true followers of the messiah, Christians, and they will rule the nations, including Israel, with a rod of iron. The only chosen Jews at that time will be those who have received Jesus Christ.

Those scriptures are speaking about an Israel that did not exist at that time. In fact, the way it is described, and the events that are told about, they could only describe the modern nation of Israel. They show that God does not draw this distinction between Israel of the past, and the current nation. According to Jeremiah 31: 35-36, Israel has NEVER ceased to be a nation before God. There is no discontinuity in Israel's nationhood. They are God's nation, and He is bound by His word to protect them and to destroy those who seek eliminate Israel; Palestinians included.

Israel has always been less than a holy nation. Not much has changed in that regard God made promises to them to their God and to protect them inspite of what he forknew that they would do . God's promises to bring them back to their land and to build them up do not depend on Israel's behavior. If God's working in our lives depended upon our actions, he could never promise anything. God is fulfilling his will with Israel because God's integrity is at stake. He cannot go back on His word. Preserving Israel proves to the world that He exists.

God promised temporal punishments against Israel for their disobedience. He promised to exile them, but he also promised to bring them back. He has been faithful to that promise.

Actually, it is the Messiah that will rule the world with a rod of iron; not Christians. Christians will be busy ministering to the Lord.

The Jews are the chosen people and God has not revoked that. Chosen does not mean favorite, by the way. Of course, people interpret it that way because they do not know God's plan for the Jews. Chosen simply means picked for a specific task. So, since God is not finished with them, (Rom. 11) they are still chosen.

[Guest idolsmasher]

God's promises to the Jews were conditional upon their obedience to God. God's will for them was to receive the messiah and the new covenant which they utterly refused to do as a nation, as a people, and as a religion, except for a small number of individuals who have received the truth. Therefore, as Christ said to them in parable, the kingdom was taken from them and given to others who were bringing forth the fruit of obedience through the acceptance of the messiah and his teachings. The Jews were chosen to be God's people but rejected Him when he came unto them so he has given the kingdom to those who receive Him and His plan.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This scripture indicates who it is that will rule and reign with Christ in the Millennial kingdom(with a rod of iron). It is those who are raptured and resurrected at His return. The only people that will be resurrected are the Christians of all ages and Old Testament saints. This is the chosen, the Israel of God, not a physical nation but a spiritual nation as Christ taught.

John 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[Guest shiloh357]

God's promises to the Jews were conditional upon their obedience to God. God's will for them was to receive the messiah and the new covenant which they utterly refused to do as a nation, as a people, and as a religion, except for a small number of individuals who have received the truth. Therefore, as Christ said to them in parable, the kingdom was taken from them and given to others who were bringing forth the fruit of obedience through the acceptance of the messiah and his teachings. The Jews were chosen to be God's people but rejected Him when he came unto them so he has given the kingdom to those who receive Him and His plan.

The promises regarding Israel's nationhood and their ownership of the Land were not conditional. When God made the promises to Abraham in Genesis, he made that clear when God passed between the halves, in Gen. 15. When God made a blood covenant, he deviated from the usual custom by preventing Arbraham from passing between the halves of the dead animals. This meant that God alone was responsible for making the covenant come to pass. It was God and God alone who bore the responsibility. Otherwise, Abraham and the Jews would have been able to take responsibility for their end of the covenant and it would not have been a sole work of God. God wanted people to see that HE is the one who is preserving the Jewish people and whatever good comes to them, is because of HIM alone and not because of anything they have done.

Therefore, when God promises in Gen 17: 8,9 that the Land belongs to the Jews as an ETERNAL covenant, he means exactly that. When people try to take that away from the Jews just because they do not live up to some standard that Christians self-righteously impose upon the Jews, they are actually coming against God Himself. Nowhere does God only promise a land to the Jews if they live completely holy 100% of the time. That is what Christians try to pencil into the Bible to justify their hatred of Jews. If they can find something wrong with what Jews do or believe, they claim that it nullifies their right to the land. God nowhere imposes that standard on Israel. He does promise that disobedience will result in temporary exile from the land. He never claims to revoke their nationhood or permanently or reject them as a people.

The parable you mentioned in Matt., was referring to the Jewish leadership and not the Jewish people. The vineyard represented the nation. The evil tenants represented the corrupt Pharisees and Saduceess. Jesus said that their rule in Israel had come to an end. They had failed to properly administer their authority, and that authority was being transferred to someone else. That is exactly what happened. Jesus' apostles became the true leaders of Israel, and now God was working the Jewish leadership of the body of Messiah. This parable was not meant to be understood as a repudiation of the Jewish nation. He was not taking the nationhood of Israel away from the Jews. Again according to Jeremiah 31: 35, 36, that cannot happen.

This scripture indicates who it is that will rule and reign with Christ in the Millennial kingdom(with a rod of iron). It is those who are raptured and resurrected at His return. The only people that will be resurrected are the Christians of all ages and Old Testament saints. This is the chosen, the Israel of God, not a physical nation but a spiritual nation as Christ taught.

The church in no way replaces the physical nation of Israel. There is no Scripture to support that. Of course, you will supply me with Scriptures that you interpret that way to support your hatred of Jews. The idea that the church replaces Israel is a theology that was born as early as the second century. It has no basis in the Word of God. Romans 11 is the death knell to such imbecilic doctrines.

[JohnS]

Ezekiel 36:16-38 (ESV)

The word of the Lord came to me: [17] "Son of man, when the house of Israel lived in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds. Their ways before me were like the uncleanness of a woman in her menstrual impurity. [18] So I poured out my wrath upon them for the blood that they had shed in the land, for the idols with which they had defiled it. [19] I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. In accordance with their ways and their deeds I judged them. [20] But when they came to the nations, wherever they came, they profaned my holy name, in that people said of them, 'These are the people of the Lord, and yet they had to go out of his land.' [21] But I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they came.

[22] "Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. [23] And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. [24] I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. [25] I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. [26] And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. [28] You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. [29] And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. [30] I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. [31] Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. [32] It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

[33] "Thus says the Lord God: On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. [34] And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by. [35] And they will say, 'This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.' [36] Then the nations that are left all around you shall know that I am the Lord; I have rebuilt the ruined places and replanted that which was desolate. I am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it.

[37] "Thus says the Lord God: This also I will let the house of Israel ask me to do for them: to increase their people like a flock. [38] Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord."

[Guest idolsmasher]

Hi Dove. Sorry to take so long to get back to you on this.

Why don't they just give the Palestinians a state out of the Arab nations?

Basically because they shouldn't have to. The Palestinians were promised their own state.

Israel is so small there is really not enough room for the Israelites and the Palestinians.

That's not really true, it's just that Israel is afraid that the Arabs might become so numerous that they would get control and that would threaten Jewish control of the state. That's why Israel isn't a true democracy.

The Palestinians never had a state before so why take part of Israel's state?

As I said, the Palestinians were guaranteed a state by the British and the UN so they just want what is rightfully theirs. The only reason they didn't get a state when the Arab nations were created is because of the plans to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine but they were given guarantees they would get a state. They never got what they were promised. The Jews also hadn't had a state since the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Basic common decency dictates that the Palestinians should be given a state to call their own.

Israel belongs to the Jews.

Well, not anymore it doesn't.

God in the Old Testament and New Testament has made that very clear.

Old Testament yes... New Testament....not really.

Do you really hate Jews?

No I don't, some of my best friends have been Jews, but I do hate injustice.

Are you really for the Palestinians and if so, why?

Not exactly, I would just like to see them get a Palestinian state and to get out from under this horrible military occupation and suffering. As human beings they deserve to be treated with respect and dignity.

Hope that helps.

[Matthitjah]

Greeting Brethren in the Peace and Love of our Risen Saviour ,Jesus!

I might add that our feelings are irrelevent here. We Pray G-ds Will be done on earth as in Heaven.

The Son came to do the Fathers Will. He did nothing apart from it. He still does nothing apart from it. It is quite clear that the Fathers Will is not finished. The scripture clearly states Jesus will rule and reign from Jerusalem. This He has chosen as His Holy habitation. Mans wisdom will not prevail. It will be confounded. Therby our feelings are irrelevant towards this matter. Only G-ds Will be done.

Pr

[Guest idolsmasher]

The scripture clearly states Jesus will rule and reign from Jerusalem.

I agree, but that doesn't mean it will be Jewish only rule. Christ will rule with all the saints, many of whom are not Jews, saved, born again, Spirit filled Christians will be a large part of His government and any Jews will have to receive Christ first of all before they can participate in His rule, except of course the Old Testament saints.

Therby our feelings are irrelevant towards this matter.

I don't agree with this. Sometimes our feelings are put there by God, a sense of justice and fairness etc, fruits of the law of Christ, the law of love written in our hearts. We will be partly judged by our feelings, whether or not we have love and concern for others, or whether we are callous and unfeeling and judgemental and hateful etc. Christ's intention is for the Church to be the people of love, the people of God through love for Him and others. God himself is the very Spirit of Love. If we are possessed of God, we will be full of love and overflowing with love for others. I think a bigger enemy of God and His plan is the carnal mind and an unbending law like attitude which causes us to be unloving and harsh. Christ delivered us from the law of carnal ordinances and wrote in our hearts the law of God's love which ultimately rules supreme over and above the law.

[Matthitjah]

Bless You Smash,

Our concern over those in opposition to the Lord matters not. I wish to G-d they were saved. I Pray for them. Maybe some of them will be? He will have mercy on whom He will. We are just tools to that end. Individual outworkings of His Glory. Pouring out what we have been given by Grace, little clay tools.

I may be angry with the Lord for various reasons. Yet I better repent quickly.

The Lord very clearly has stated that He will rule and reign from Jerusalem and that He desires to breath life into the remnant of those dead bones. That have been stood up and put together. The nation Israel.

I hear Arafat a professed muslim say 10,000 martyrs to Jerusalem and until Jerusalem. So does he or does he not desire to thwart G-ds very Will? What will happen to any man ,nation, or spiritual created being who see's fit to thwart His Will? Any nation including the good old USA? For the Lord Himself has chosen to rule and reign there. For His names sake and His Glory!

Because He desires to breath life into them bones? Which He has gathered. How will that be with a bunch of muslims threatening to wipe them out and drown them in the sea? How will He rule and reign if He doesn't put down those in opposition to His very Will? He has given them free will and they have chosen not to believe. They have been offered peace on any number of occasions and have instead sought the whole enchilada. Desiring to cause the name of Israel and the people of that state to cease to ever exist. Thus blackening G-ds very eye. Because He is both zealous and jealous for His names sake and His Glory! Not for the sake of the Israelis or you and I. But because he desires that no one ever say there is no G-d in Israel.

So how will it be that our feelings on this matter will mean any little thing up against the Will of G-d?

He has offered salvation to those who will believe. Protection as well. Part of that believing is that you will follow His Will. Your will ceases to exist in the fact that you are in His. You have said Father I believe and my will doesn't count anymore. I tried my way now let me try Yours. For You certainly know what is right for me.

He also certainly knows what is right for Jerusalem and all of Israel! Despite what our feelings and will say.

G-d Bless You Richly Brother!

Peace :il: Amen!

[Guest idolsmasher]

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

[Guest shiloh357]

Loving your enemies has to do with interpersonal relationships between individuals. It is not meant to serve as foreign policy. Israel cannot be expected to "love" the Palestinian terrorists by allowing them to commit terrorism with impunity.

Would you not defend your family if they were in danger from a burglar or mugger? Would you just sit idly by and "love" the person who is hurting your wife, child, brother, sister, etc."? It is easy to sit in here in America far from the danger and pontificate as to what the Israelis should do or not do. When it is YOUR baby that is shredded by a suicide bomber, the situation takes on a whole other demension.

Why is it that the Jews are the only ones expected to "love their enemies"? Why is no one counselling the terrroists to do the same. Doesnt seem fair to allow the terrorists the freedom to murder whoever they want, and the Israelis are supposed to sit on their hands and just take it in the name of "love." Who should an Israeli love more? His children or his enemy?