Born Again?

[chrismarc]

EricH said,

Most protestant scholars do not agree with you. Schaff and Kelly are frequently quoted by Catholics as representative of protestant theology, but they are not. They are in the minority.

Probably 90% of Christians believe in the Sacrament of Baptism -

and it has been so since for 2000 years, except since folks like

yourself in the last century began interpreting Scripture willy-nilly.

i'll stand with the Church protected by the Holy Spirit. (Mt 16:18)

[seraphimbride]

Candi,

Thank you for your insight.

Regarding "dead to sin":

Do you mean that once you are born again, sin can no longer touch you? That we'er immune to sin?I hope not. Do you mean that we give up our lives and purposeful deeds of sin? Is till sin almost daily, but not with intent, and I always ask God to forgive my sins. I probably should'nt post them, but like, judging others--i find myself doing it, but mostly i dont realize i'm doing it at the time. At night, I reflect on my day, and that's usually when I remember some sin I know that God would not be pleased with, and I ask him to forgive me. He knows that I make daily efforts with things I have recurrent problems with.

Please explain "dead to sin".

Thank you again.

[seraphimbride]

Crismarc,

i was baptized. so i guess i was "born again" without even trying? Confusing.

Thanks

[seraphimbride]

Crismarc,

I did go to mass and I did receive the body of christ, and I felt like i had been waiting forever to receive Him. Now I receive every week. I never though I would look forward to receiving HIM like i do now. I cant wait!

GOD IS AWESOME!!

Edited April 27, 2006 by seraphimbride

[chrismarc]

Wayne B said,

The Roman Catholic Church wrongly teaches that water baptism somehow confers sanctifying grace along with six other Sacraments, which includes Marriage, the Eucharist, Last Rites, Confirmation and Penance. So it isn't just about "water baptism" when this topic pops up with our Catholic brethren, as evidenced by the last few posts by chrismarc. It is really about ALL seven Sacraments, which are believed by the Roman Catholic Church to confer sanctifying grace.

The 7 sacraments do indeed confer sanctifying Grace and

are Scriptural and instituted by Jesus Christ.

Augustine of Hippo (354-430) wrote in regards to the baptism of Jesus...

"Why did the Son of God appear as a man and the Holy Spirit as a dove? Because the Son of God came to show humility a pattern for living, whereas the Holy Spirit made his appearance to bestow the gift which enables excellent living. Moreover, both appearances surely came in a visible manner for the sake of carnal eyes. For we must pass by degrees through the visible sacraments from those things which are seen with the physical eyes to those things which are understood spiritually by the mind. For human words make a sound and then pass away. But when the divine Word is expressed, that which is signified by the words does not pass away." Questions, Question 43, Cetedoc 0250 What I understand Augustine to express here is the difference between the temporal and the spiritual. When he speaks of "visible sacraments", I believe he means "religious rituals or ceremony" of which Water Baptism in one. We limit our vision when we view God's sanctifying GRACE through the eyes of our flesh rather than the eyes of our spirit.

See post #20 where i give Augustine's views on the necessity of Baptism.

In this selection you have, Augustine is expressing a sacrament is both

form(words) and matter(real); in baptism, it's the words " in the name of

the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit " and the matter is the Water.

If our friend is honest, he will point out that water baptism is BUT one of the seven Sacraments that his Church teaches as confering sanctifying grace... sort of a punchlist of things you have to do in order to earn your salvation.

As i said above, these 7 sacraments do confer sanctifying grace,

but are not a punchlist and besides you cannot earn salvation.

Believe GOD! Simple.

What does it mean to "believe"?

Too bad this gravitated to just another water baptism thread.

Baptism=Born Again.

[chrismarc]

seraphimbride said,

I did go to mass and I did receive the body of christ, and I felt like i had been waiting forever

to receive Him. Now I receive every week. I never though I would look forward to receiving

HIM like i do now. I cant wait!GOD IS AWESOME!!

Each time you receive Jesus worthily (without mortal sin) in Eucharist, you are

receiving deep cleansing grace to strengthen you on your spiritual journey -

it is our spiritual food from heaven - the Bread of Life. Too bad our separated

brothers and sisters "walk away" from this Scriptural commandment of Jesus,

as it certainly is a "hard teaching" and many left Him then. (read John 6).

There always asking for Scriptural proof, but they continually deny clear

Scripture on receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus in Communion, again,

taught in Scripture, by the Apostles and the early Church Fathers.

[chrismarc]

seraphimbride said,

i was baptized. so i guess i was "born again" without even trying?

Confusing.Thanks

No, just simply doing what Christ said.

[seraphimbride]

Dear Chrismark,

WOW! thank you for putting so much into this concept.

It never ceases to amaze me that the beautiful words of the Gospel are forever used as a stage for division and seperation among men. It seems God what have meant for it to be used for sharing committment to HIM. of course, I guess its easy for me to say. i cant quote scripture. its just beautiful when I read it. Everything has personal meaning for me, and it all gives glory to His Name.

Sorry--i'm rambling

What i wanted to tell you was that I came to desiring a deeper relationship with Christ after reading St. Faustina Kawaksi's diary of Divine Mercy. I hold such awe at the personal relationship and devotion she and other saints have had with Jesus. I crave that with my soul. I am forever inspired. I would never receive HIM without being cleansed of my sins; that in itself would be offending to Jesus.

Just wanted to share that with u.

Thanks again and God bless you.

Edited April 27, 2006 by seraphimbride

[seraphimbride]

Dear Rick,

Thanks for your comments.

I just wanted to tell you that I have a deep and personal relationship with god. I think what he wants to reveal to me is that in my depths of my soul I feel he is pleased with me. I also think that knowing that he is pleased with me, is telling me that its not important to find out if I am born again. I know he is pleased with me, and for right now, that's what matters to me, most. I pray not to be led astray, and he knows that all I want to do in every word, deed, thought, and intention, is to praise him and live a life that gives HIM glory. I never want to offend him, not so much in fear of HIS justice, but mostly because I would never want to cause HIM pain. Ever. I fail constantly, but my faith is so strong. It will never be broken.

Thank you again and God bless u.

[JesusisGod2]

Crismarc,

i was baptized. so i guess i was "born again" without even trying? Confusing.

Thanks

Hi seraphimbride,

Please forgive me for being blunt here but in answer to your question the answer is No! This is a totally false teaching that is taught by some. If you were born again you would know it.

It is by Christ baptism, Crucifixion and resurrection that you are saved. I would like to give you some parallels from the old and new testament that hopefully will help you see where I am coming from.

The following is a picture of Christ being baptized by John and the sins of the world being passed on from John (Who represents mankind and the high priest) unto Jesus who represents and is God.

Shadow

Leviticus 16

21 "Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness.

22 "The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

Fulfillment

Mark 1

9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

10 Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him;

11 and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

12 Immediately the Spirit impelled Him to go out into the wilderness.

13 And He was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to Him.

Parallels

1) Just as the high priest laid his hands (represents Jesus baptism) on the scape goat and passed all the sins of Israel onto the scape goat John laid his hands on Jesus in baptism and passed the Sins of the world onto Jesus

John 1:29

The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

2) both were driven into the wilderness.

Now this happened once a year and there were two goats, one being a scape goat by which the sins of Israel were passed onto and one being a sin offering which made atonement for the sins of Israel.

Now with Christ this happened once and it was finished, there is no more need for a sacrifice, Jesus has accomplished this in its entirety.

5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.

6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.

7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering

now the sin atonement required blood which cleansed Israel of their sin:

27 And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung.

28 And he that burneth them shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp.

29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:

30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Christ of course is Gods atonement for the sins of the entire world by His blood on the cross.

So we see that the sins were passed onto the scape goat and were atoned for by the sin offering (2nd goat) each a picture of what Christ would accomplish in His ministry on earth.

Do you believe that by the baptism of Jesus by John the baptist that all your sins were passed onto Jesus, past, present and future?

Do you believe that Jesus is God Almighty, the King of kings, the Creator of the universe?

Do you believe that by Christ Crucifixion that your sins and your penalty for sins were atoned for, past present and future?

Do you believe that Christ rose from the grave and is alive forever more?

If you believe this then confess it to God and you will be saved "born again"

Romans 10

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

(notice it says that you are justified by your belief not your baptism)

11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile