buckthesystem Posted June 8, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,706 Topics Per Day: 0.26 Content Count: 3,386 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/12/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1955 Share Posted June 8, 2006 I think we should be on constant guard about our obligation toward Christ His service and His worship. I agree with some of what you say buck. But also let us get back to Romans 13 a little. Look at this passage at the end. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If youowe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. I think this is a actually a brilliant verse, I think it foresees the problems we will have in the world and how some may use faux rebellion as an excuse for simply not doing things that they ought to do. I use government services every day, I vote, I accept my citizenship in this country, when I am old enough to retire I will accept Social Security, when I have needed them I have called the police and they came, ergo, I owe them, I owe them taxes and I owe them respect and honor. I just served on a jury, I was compelled to go, and I owe that to my country. I also think my culture is sliding down the toilet, but whose fault is that? But I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted June 8, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted June 8, 2006 I think we should be on constant guard about our obligation toward Christ His service and His worship. I agree with some of what you say buck. But also let us get back to Romans 13 a little. Look at this passage at the end. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If youowe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. I think this is a actually a brilliant verse, I think it foresees the problems we will have in the world and how some may use faux rebellion as an excuse for simply not doing things that they ought to do. I use government services every day, I vote, I accept my citizenship in this country, when I am old enough to retire I will accept Social Security, when I have needed them I have called the police and they came, ergo, I owe them, I owe them taxes and I owe them respect and honor. I just served on a jury, I was compelled to go, and I owe that to my country. I also think my culture is sliding down the toilet, but whose fault is that? But I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckthesystem Posted June 9, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,706 Topics Per Day: 0.26 Content Count: 3,386 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/12/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1955 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Smalcald, to save room I have only quoted you latest post: "Do you own anything? If you own anything you used your government to enforce laws and contracts and provide a monetary system to allow you to use currency to buy things. Did you drive on a road today, if you did you used government services both to build and maintain and to plan the road. Were there traffic laws and signs on the road, if there were you used government services. Did you have to carry a firearm with you to protect yourself against bandits or against Muslim invaders? If you didn't you rely on your government services to protect you and to offer you a limited peace. Do you hold a deed to the land you own if you do your government provides the laws and stability that enforce that deed. These are things we all take for granted, but do not exist without good stable government. You cannot stretch Romans 13 to say anything except that it is speaking of government. Christ said to give Caesar what is his. The reason it is brilliant is that it does NOT say give any government simply anything, it says if you owe taxes pay them, if you owe honor give honor. Give to those that we OWE. I owe taxes and I owe honor and loyalty to my government. I don't have to take this deal, neither do you. We can leave, we can renounce our citizenship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted June 9, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Buck, I agree with you about watching for the demands of government and that in the end when the anti-Christ controls a world government, we must always maintain our separateness and resist demands to deny the Lord our God. I also am no fan of bloated bureaucracies. I think you are really against government bureaucracy and not government itself correct? However, just because government is used by the anti-Christ does not make government evil, the internet will be used by the anti-Christ, as will mass media, as will a good portion of our technology, they will all be tools of the anti-Christ. Romans 13 is talking about government, it is plain, you can't stretch the text in any other way. But remember, like Christ said, all this passage says give what you owe. Christ did not say to give Caesar our faith, it says give Caesar what is Caesars. If we don't owe the government we should not pay it. However, when we live under a government we indeed accept the deal that is offered by citizenship. We do not have to take that deal; we can totally reject that deal by renouncing our citizenship, which should be no big deal for you as you think your very citizenship is evil. The problem you have is what is next? Consider your neck of the woods. If you left NZ and its evil government, you could go to a place with little government control, says Papua New Guinea. Have you ever been to Port Moresby (sp?), if you want to see what a place is like without a stable government try there, I think it currently has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Every society needs government, without it sinful people turn into beasts. Look at the places without government around the globe, failed states they are called, they are all horrible places to live. There has never been an example of a society that has successfully survived without some form of a government. We who live in places where God has provided the blessings of good government should be thankful, and should do as Romans 13 tells, to give them what we owe, no more, and no less. I do think God has put into place these governments which allow the Gospel to spread, as you point out in the passage. Government protects us and gives us peace and allows us to worship and to spread the Gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckthesystem Posted June 10, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,706 Topics Per Day: 0.26 Content Count: 3,386 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/12/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1955 Share Posted June 10, 2006 Buck, I agree with you about watching for the demands of government and that in the end when the anti-Christ controls a world government, we must always maintain our separateness and resist demands to deny the Lord our God. I also am no fan of bloated bureaucracies. I think you are really against government bureaucracy and not government itself correct? However, just because government is used by the anti-Christ does not make government evil, the internet will be used by the anti-Christ, as will mass media, as will a good portion of our technology, they will all be tools of the anti-Christ. Romans 13 is talking about government, it is plain, you can't stretch the text in any other way. But remember, like Christ said, all this passage says give what you owe. Christ did not say to give Caesar our faith, it says give Caesar what is Caesars. If we don't owe the government we should not pay it. However, when we live under a government we indeed accept the deal that is offered by citizenship. We do not have to take that deal; we can totally reject that deal by renouncing our citizenship, which should be no big deal for you as you think your very citizenship is evil. The problem you have is what is next? Consider your neck of the woods. If you left NZ and its evil government, you could go to a place with little government control, says Papua New Guinea. Have you ever been to Port Moresby (sp?), if you want to see what a place is like without a stable government try there, I think it currently has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Every society needs government, without it sinful people turn into beasts. Look at the places without government around the globe, failed states they are called, they are all horrible places to live. There has never been an example of a society that has successfully survived without some form of a government. We who live in places where God has provided the blessings of good government should be thankful, and should do as Romans 13 tells, to give them what we owe, no more, and no less. I do think God has put into place these governments which allow the Gospel to spread, as you point out in the passage. Government protects us and gives us peace and allows us to worship and to spread the Gospel. Smalcald, here we go again (I did say I liked a debate and I still don't see how Romans 13 can be thought to refer to government when it is clear that the only power that exists is that of God and not man). Sure we have to be watchful (or the generation that will exist at the time will anyway) of government having too much power that the antichrist will inherit. But then by "putting all our eggs into one basket" and giving everything to government we are in danger of not being able to "draw the line" at "demands to deny the Lord is our God". You said that technology (the internet for instance) will also be a tool of the antichrist and we are not calling that evil, but then there is no Bible passages that people have claimed tell us "the internet is all good, you must obey it". You are absolutely right, however, about "give what we owe" and no more - we mustn't exaggerate this and think it means to give "all our worldly goods to government". But, as for believing that government has offered us a deal - which we have accepted - that we can have "citizenship in exchange for money and absolute loyalty, is, I think, "drawing a long bow". In other words, I "just don't buy that". What is this "deal" you talk of? I did not "accept a deal with the devil - err sorry, I mean "government" not "the devil", and so don't believe that to be free-born I have to "renounce" any deal or my citizenship which I do not believe this government provided for me to start with. I believe also that I should be able to live my life here, or just about anywhere for that matter really, without excessive government "controls" and extortion and not have to move to Port Moresby just so I can drive without wearing a seatbelt. Also I don't believe that a high crime rate has anything to do with not believing that Rom. 13 tells us that we should revere government and pay taxes and I don't really accept that without government we would all turn into beasts. I am not saying, in any way, that we do not need "some form of government". What I am saying is that I'm finding it really weird how lately it seems there is a definite trend towards deifying governments and claiming that we are doing so because the Bible tells us to do that because "God has put all these governments in place". I have no doubt that we do need some form of government and we need to pay the taxes to support that. Again, this is not because Rom. 13 says so as it clearly does not! We don't need the bloated with power bureaucracies that we currently have with thousands of politicians and civil servants all feeding out of an endless public trough which they keep "topped up" by unreasonable extortion and demanding money with menaces. All governments have a few necessary core functions to perform and could easily be 30% of what they are. If this was the case there would be no room for evil or "empire building" and much more necessity for people to use common sense and logic in their everyday lives. People have become reliant on government to "tell them what to do" all the time and they are in danger of not being able to think for themselves. Meanwhile politicians and government employees take advantage of this situation and live and travel in luxury at these peoples' expense. That is what is evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted June 10, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted June 10, 2006 What I am saying is that I'm finding it really weird how lately it seems there is a definite trend towards deifying governments and claiming that we are doing so because the Bible tells us to do that because "God has put all these governments in place". Ah, okay we are in agreement on something, I am not saying that God has put all of these governments in place in that sense at all. You see I look at Romans 13 combined with how Christ spoke of government and interacted with government. Nothing including an interpretation of Romans 13 speaking of government says that we should bow to or deify any government, but that we should give them what we owe. Now as Christians we also know that having food and clothing, with these we should be content. Do we get ripped off many times, yes I think so? But you know God put Pharos in place also, as Paul tells us, God raised up Pharos up for one reason, and to show God's might and support for His people. All governments have a few necessary core functions to perform and could easily be 30% of what they are. If this was the case there would be no room for evil or "empire building" and much more necessity for people to use common sense and logic in their everyday lives. People have become reliant on government to "tell them what to do" all the time and they are in danger of not being able to think for themselves. Meanwhile politicians and government employees take advantage of this situation and live and travel in luxury at these peoples' expense. That is what is evil. Buck you know what there are several political parties in the United States that basically have this as their platform, including conservative Republicans. In fact this sounds a little like something our president might say. It sounds to me as if you need to get a conservative groundswell going over there. Is NZ kind of socialist, much like Europe? If it is I can certainly understand your frustration. Although today many in the US envy getting free health care! But I still think we should be thankful for living in peaceful stable societies, where I have the protected right to go out in a public place and proclaim the message of the Gospel, to proclaim Christ. If I did not have freedom of speech this would be difficult, if there was an unlawful society I would have a hard time doing that. This is a rare thing from an historical perspective and even right now in the world. There is not doubt in my mind that having a society where spreading the Gospel is allowed and is protected, that this is from God. The problem is I don't see any great alternatives out there do you? What I mean is so I throw of this government, well what is going to replace it and what will they do? We may reach a point like the American founders did who refused to accept the yoke of British Empire and their government and their taxes, and went to war against them, largely over taxes. We may reach a conclusion that our country does not speak for us anymore and like the Confederate States of America go to war against the federal government. I think we must really think about what we want to do vis a vi government and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckthesystem Posted June 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,706 Topics Per Day: 0.26 Content Count: 3,386 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/12/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1955 Share Posted June 11, 2006 What I am saying is that I'm finding it really weird how lately it seems there is a definite trend towards deifying governments and claiming that we are doing so because the Bible tells us to do that because "God has put all these governments in place". Ah, okay we are in agreement on something, I am not saying that God has put all of these governments in place in that sense at all. You see I look at Romans 13 combined with how Christ spoke of government and interacted with government. Nothing including an interpretation of Romans 13 speaking of government says that we should bow to or deify any government, but that we should give them what we owe. Now as Christians we also know that having food and clothing, with these we should be content. Do we get ripped off many times, yes I think so? But you know God put Pharos in place also, as Paul tells us, God raised up Pharos up for one reason, and to show God's might and support for His people. All governments have a few necessary core functions to perform and could easily be 30% of what they are. If this was the case there would be no room for evil or "empire building" and much more necessity for people to use common sense and logic in their everyday lives. People have become reliant on government to "tell them what to do" all the time and they are in danger of not being able to think for themselves. Meanwhile politicians and government employees take advantage of this situation and live and travel in luxury at these peoples' expense. That is what is evil. Buck you know what there are several political parties in the United States that basically have this as their platform, including conservative Republicans. In fact this sounds a little like something our president might say. It sounds to me as if you need to get a conservative groundswell going over there. Is NZ kind of socialist, much like Europe? If it is I can certainly understand your frustration. Although today many in the US envy getting free health care! But I still think we should be thankful for living in peaceful stable societies, where I have the protected right to go out in a public place and proclaim the message of the Gospel, to proclaim Christ. If I did not have freedom of speech this would be difficult, if there was an unlawful society I would have a hard time doing that. This is a rare thing from an historical perspective and even right now in the world. There is not doubt in my mind that having a society where spreading the Gospel is allowed and is protected, that this is from God. The problem is I don't see any great alternatives out there do you? What I mean is so I throw of this government, well what is going to replace it and what will they do? We may reach a point like the American founders did who refused to accept the yoke of British Empire and their government and their taxes, and went to war against them, largely over taxes. We may reach a conclusion that our country does not speak for us anymore and like the Confederate States of America go to war against the federal government. I think we must really think about what we want to do vis a vi government and why. I'm all "fired up about this" as we have been discussing Romans 13 at our church meeting tonight. Though, of course, we were discussing it from a local point of view (i.e. seeing as we now have a government that promotes "abortion on demand", "equal rights for 'gays' under the law", "civil unions" - introduced by the government specifically to cater for "same-sex relationships", "equal adoption rights for everybody", "inclusiveness in education" - i.e. lessons in "sex education" being the No. 1 priority for schools and "political correctness" in words and actions in schools, etc. etc.), are we to believe that Romans 13 tells us that the people behind these ideas are "not a terror to good works" and we should support them? I guess the American government does not promote these things so the dilemma is not there right now. However, I guess you are aware that pretty soon America too could have such a government! To your words "is NZ kind of socialist, much like Europe". Yes, that is absolutely correct. Our PM is a long time member of a European organisation (I can't remember the name right now) that is called something like "the association for socialist world leaders". She goes every year to their conferences in Europe at the NZ taxpayers' expense (travelling in luxury of course) and was there on September 11 2001 when the news broke about "the twin towers". She also is on record as saying that her spiritual belief is "atheism" and she believes that she has inherited the "divine right of kings" - i.e. she is "above the law". That is all quite a price to pay for "free health care". Which BTW is getting more and more "unfree" as time goes by. The health system is fine as long as you can afford to "jump through all the hoops" that it takes to "get on the system" for a start, and as long as you don't need a hip-replacement or eye cateract surgery, or even in a lot of cases "life-saving surgery". There has been a lot of publicity lately about "people dying while waiting for surgery on waiting lists" and "people getting bumped off waiting lists to make the figures look good". NZ's health system is an excellent example of, and one that probably comes to mind when people think of, a BLOATED, OUT OF CONTROL BUREAUCRACY. Our government seems to think that "spending money on health care" is spending money (taxpayers' money) on employing more and more parasitic bureaucrats to shuffle more and more useless bits of paper round and waste time and money "computerising" things and draw outrageously excessive "salaries". OK, so that is my rant against this government (latest one anyway). But to your paragraph: "But I still think we should be thankful for living in peaceful stable societies, where I have the protected right to go out in a public place and proclaim the message of the Gospel, to proclaim Christ. If I did not have freedom of speech this would be difficult, if there was an unlawful society I would have a hard time doing that. This is a rare thing from an historical perspective and even right now in the world. There is not doubt in my mind that having a society where spreading the Gospel is allowed and is protected, that this is from God". Well, basically sure you've got a really good point there, but in America now there is the Patriot Act ............ And to your paragraph: "The problem is I don't see any great alternatives out there do you? What I mean is so I throw of this government, well what is going to replace it and what will they do? We may reach a point like the American founders did who refused to accept the yoke of British Empire and their government and their taxes, and went to war against them, largely over taxes. We may reach a conclusion that our country does not speak for us anymore and like the Confederate States of America go to war against the federal government. I think we must really think about what we want to do vis a vi government and why". My opinion entirely and I do realise and I'm not "trying to tell you what to do in your own country", just surmising: The American founders had some really good ideas, perhaps people today could learn from that and copy their actions. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy34 Posted June 11, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 6 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/07/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2006 As believers and followers of Christ we will be greatly rewarded if we live by His word. His word tells us to obey authorities over us because as we do so we are obeying Him, We have to remember that all things work together for good for those who love the Lord who are called according to His purpose. He wouldnt allow an evil ruler without there being a reason behind it. So thus we need to obey, regardless of the authority. For He has a plan! Joy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted June 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Well, basically sure you've got a really good point there, but in America now there is the Patriot Act ............ Yup you point out something here, which is a problem. Many conservatives and many conservative Christians oppose this sort of infringement on our freedoms. We may be entering a stage, which is indeed very dangerous for all religious people. I here things in both Europe and the US Left which are saying that ALL fundamentalism is dangerous, that Christian fundamentalist and conservatives are just as dangerous as the violent Islamists. So that is a trend which I will watch very carefully. For me that is the point of resistance. For you see here, we have our Christian brothers and sisters over history refusing to negotiate their faith, refusing to be quite about spreading the Gospel. Consider Stephen, consider Peter when the authorities brought him in and told him to be quite, no he resisted, Stephen resisted to death. Of course we have the ultimate resistance to a government authority by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who was executed for refusing to recant or deny what He was about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckthesystem Posted June 12, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,706 Topics Per Day: 0.26 Content Count: 3,386 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/12/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1955 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Well, basically sure you've got a really good point there, but in America now there is the Patriot Act ............ Yup you point out something here, which is a problem. Many conservatives and many conservative Christians oppose this sort of infringement on our freedoms. We may be entering a stage, which is indeed very dangerous for all religious people. I here things in both Europe and the US Left which are saying that ALL fundamentalism is dangerous, that Christian fundamentalist and conservatives are just as dangerous as the violent Islamists. So that is a trend which I will watch very carefully. For me that is the point of resistance. For you see here, we have our Christian brothers and sisters over history refusing to negotiate their faith, refusing to be quite about spreading the Gospel. Consider Stephen, consider Peter when the authorities brought him in and told him to be quite, no he resisted, Stephen resisted to death. Of course we have the ultimate resistance to a government authority by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who was executed for refusing to recant or deny what He was about. So you realise that there is "a point of resistance" and would personally resist demands that all Christians change (or moderate their stance) to be "tolerant" of other religions and political correctness. However, I am wondering if most others would see a danger in a world trend towards "moderation of religion" and would actually fight it. If they are taught that "governing authorities are put in place by God" and we must obey them on that basis, then they would believe that what ever "governing authorities" dictate is the "modern way" is the right thing to do. The way I read it, the America's Patriot Act gives way more power to a government - any government - in America (which soon could be Hilary Clinton or even the antichrist) and this practically over-rules the first amendment of the constitution (as well as all the others) guaranteeing "free speech", "freedom to practice religion" etc. Christians might believe that "Christian fundamentalism" will not be compromised under the present government, but what about the the next government, or the one after, or a government that might be under the control of the antichrist? Do you think people will be able to know where to "draw the line"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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