Why a Trinity?

[Mark777]

Smalcald,

You commented, "God is already living in the future, with those who will be saved; He is also here with us."

I would love to hear more on this thought.

Mark

[emeraldgirl]

Wayne, you are very sweet. And I am very sorry for your struggles.

I do know that I'm not the only one who has suffered. I read the story "Because of Winn-Dixie" with my daughter the year I lost my baby. Out of that story, I felt the message for me (whether or not the author intended it as a theme) was that everyone has pain. People are also misunderstood and mistreated for the pain they bear, and this was very true IME.

Yet in EACH event I can see the hand of God preparing me and those I love for an eternity with HIM.

In some ways, I can see this, too, but I don't always feel that it's been worth the price, IYKWIM.

I have been accused by many that I am in denial over my son's disease. My wife has had to defend me and explain that we are simply FAITHFUL.

I can understand this. When I was pregnant again, some people were stunned that I would "go and do that", since I was at risk to lose a baby again. I simply didn't see it that way. I felt that God was asking me to trust him with another pregnancy, statistics notwithstanding. Not that I didn't occassionally wonder what on earth I was thinking.

As far as the flood goes, it is no more problematic than a virgin birth (which you accept), correct?

Yes, that is why I said my ease of accepting the Jesus doctrine was surprising and incongruent. Anyway, the flood takes on a more excuse-making dynamic (at least to me) than the Jesus doctrine. The Jesus one is simple. The flood makes all these pleas to the supernatural to reconcile the things we now know are scientifically impossible or improbable, when it was all an excercise in futility anyway, since God could have made animals, people, trees, whatever over from scratch if he had wanted to, without the need for a 500-year-old geezer to build an ark for a century. (How's that for a run-on?)

And the flood still brings question to God's goodness, besides. Could you drown one person? I couldn't even drown a kitten! When you watched video of the Tsunami that happened that Christmas (2004? I think?), didn't your heart ache? Did you cry, or almost at the sight of those corpses in lines for identification? Can you even begin to fathom that on a global scale? Now what of that being done on purpose because the people were evil! This seems somewhat logical if we consider it was written during more barbaric, if you will, times. Would you want this story in the modern Bible, though, I mean if you had magic and could just make it disappear, with nobody's memory?

I would rather believe that God is good and the flood story is a misfortune.

I think where you should direct your studies is to try to determine if the Bible is accurate in other aspects and then see if, in its supernaturalism, it contradicts what is known for sure about anything.

I think it comes out wanting in this respect, too. Not that I've studied it for a long time or in great depth.

Considering this, you can see that sin is more than a description of an act(s) but a condition that flavors our whole being.

But that is precisely what I do not believe. I don't believe we are predesposed to do evil. I believe we are originally morally neutral. Many external and some internal factors act towards a person making a given choice.

For example, in our household, nobody curses at another. Not even "soft" cursing; we don't say anyone is "stupid", "ugly", that we hate them, "shut up", etc. My children are also homeschooled, so even among friends and in the homes of friends, my children are rarely exposed to people who speak this way to others. Of course, they could still make an autonomous choice to say one of these terms to each other, or to another person. But, the likelihood is far less than someone who has a family that often speaks this way to each other. They are not driven by an internal "disease" of sin to speak in ways that hurt and deride others. If they were, it would not matter whether their home was like mine or like the cursing family. The kids would still curse freely, regularly and without remorse, unless they had already become a Christian. Besides that, becoming a Christian would quickly rectify these sinful tendencies IN ALL CHRISTIANS and in no other kind of person, but this is not so.

Having said that, I do think that loving God drives people to do what is right more often. However, I don't think this is the exclusive domain of Christians; many non-Christians love God, you can see it in their lives.

But to the fact that many cultures across time and geography have both a flood account and a Moses account, gives even further credence to the biblical accounts of both, they actually make sense.

But, if the Bible was inerrant, the Bible would be the only "version" of these stories that was perfectly correct. All the rest are copies. But how are they copies, if when it was written, there wasn't communication existing between the cultures that have flood stories? It seems more likely that these were oral traditions and, like all oral traditions, details varied. Eventually someone wrote them down, but perhaps since those manuscripts were hanging out near the Jewish Law text, someone decided to put them together. Plus, there could have been a flood, a pretty catastrophic flood in that region at that time. It still doesn't lend credence to the Noah story, necessarily.

And besides, why - I insist - are these early stories constantly showing a punitive, vindictive God? This has so much more in common with how ancient people viewed any god, and also how they explained things they didn't know about. Why is childbirth painful? Because God punished Eve. Why do thorns grow in the garden? Because God punished Adam. Why is life so hard? Because sin corrupted the world/because Satan works to spoil the world.

Although, from the childbirth angle, if evolution were true, I for certain would have voted for "marsupial" childbearing by now!

[Arthur Durnan]

Personally, I simply BELIEVE it. There are millions of things in life I cannot understand. However because a thing transcends my reason doesn't mean that it contradicts my reason. I recently read that ten out of two people are dyslexic (I guess I'll NEVER understand THAT! Who might?) Seriously tho, again I state that I BELIEVE and with faith believing I hear Jesus' Own words, "If you believe not that I am He, you shall die in your sins." The Holy trinity is the Creator God's way of personally revealing Himself in three Personalities, Each co-existent, Each all-powerful and Each fully God. NOT "three Gods'; ONE God revealed in three Personalities. Yea, "Great is the mystery of Godliness."

P.S. Actually, the Holy Bible speaks of SEVEN "mysteries." The best advice is to go on line to WWW.JESUS.CALM AMEN & AMEN!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Mark777]

Hey EG,

You be sayin...

EG:

[Guest linssue55]

God is a united God, not three, just one united team, God.

Sorry, not so. .....

Edited June 22, 2006 by linssue55

[Mark777]

linnsue 55: "But the planet earth had become desolate and empty..."

Where did you get this from?

Mark

[WayneB]

Wayne, you are very sweet. And I am very sorry for your struggles.

I do know that I'm not the only one who has suffered. I read the story "Because of Winn-Dixie" with my daughter the year I lost my baby. Out of that story, I felt the message for me (whether or not the author intended it as a theme) was that everyone has pain. People are also misunderstood and mistreated for the pain they bear, and this was very true IME.

Thanks EG. I see the same kindness in your words. Honestly though? I really don't see the challenges I shared with you as true struggles. It's just life (and by the way, I loved that movie "Because of Winn-Dixie" ). I honestly believe Paul when he wrote that we know, in ALL things God does good for those who love HIM and are called according to HIS purpose. Someday I may write a book about my son's disease because through it, God has touched so many lives to include the inmates I minister to weekly, the people in the churches I have spoken at and even the folks here at the plant. You know what my son is doing today? Painting the interior of the garage of our house. Some folks would let the fear control them; he rather has no fear because he knows the source of his salvation. We go for his post-op angiogram next month where the doctors will be able to determine the results of the by-pass surgeries. I have no doubt...all is well, just as the Shunammite woman said when her son died from an apparent stroke (2 Kings 4). By the way, Michael, who is a degreed Biochemist, has decided to go to nursing school. He was so impressed with the male nurses at Emory University, he has decied to become one.

Yet in EACH event I can see the hand of God preparing me and those I love for an eternity with HIM.

In some ways, I can see this, too, but I don't always feel that it's been worth the price, IYKWIM.

I understand. What helps me is when I empathize with God and the work of the Cross. Max Lucado once said that in order to truly grasp the Source of our salvation, we must have a deeper understanding of the Cross and what it really means. The Father gave His Son; the Son willingly went to the Cross and experienced separation from the Father, rejection by those He loved, extreme physical pain and even death. I'm not sure there is any trial that can be imposed on me that comes close to matching what God has done for us. Get a copy of the DVD, "He Chose the Nails". You will be blessed.

I have been accused by many that I am in denial over my son's disease. My wife has had to defend me and explain that we are simply FAITHFUL.

I can understand this. When I was pregnant again, some people were stunned that I would "go and do that", since I was at risk to lose a baby again. I simply didn't see it that way. I felt that God was asking me to trust him with another pregnancy, statistics notwithstanding. Not that I didn't occassionally wonder what on earth I was thinking.

I think what you did is great. Statistics are not always reliable... this coming from a math major. How did it turn out?

[Mark777]

Hey everyone,

Watch this and tell me what you think. It is one hour and seventeen minutes long but worth it.

It covers time in an interesting way - smalcald, it reminds me of your comment.

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?ei=UTF-8...p_p=hal+lindsey

Mark

[germanJoy]

Yes, that is why I said my ease of accepting the Jesus doctrine was surprising and incongruent. Anyway, the flood takes on a more excuse-making dynamic (at least to me) than the Jesus doctrine. The Jesus one is simple. The flood makes all these pleas to the supernatural to reconcile the things we now know are scientifically impossible or improbable, when it was all an excercise in futility anyway, since God could have made animals, people, trees, whatever over from scratch if he had wanted to, without the need for a 500-year-old geezer to build an ark for a century. (How's that for a run-on?)

Excuse me, emeraldgirl, I have difficulties grasping your analogy. How can the flood story be considered as scientifically impossible and the virgin birth as logical? Taking into account that neither cloning nor in vitro fertilisation was preposterous during Christ's birth, both doctrines should be incomprehensible to you.

One needs to know God more to have a better understanding of His character. An Almighty God does accordiing to His pleasure and purpose. He hankers doing things beyond human reasoning so that we may simply perceive our restrictions compared to His dynamic supremacy. Thus, He resolved to effect an impossible flood story than starting from scratch. Besides, His plans were unalterable... it was through the seed of Eve that the Christ was to come which would make your "scratch start" non-acceptable.

God speaking to the serpent, And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel." Gen. 3:15

And the flood still brings question to God's goodness, besides. Could you drown one person? I couldn't even drown a kitten! When you watched video of the Tsunami that happened that Christmas (2004? I think?), didn't your heart ache? Did you cry, or almost at the sight of those corpses in lines for identification? Can you even begin to fathom that on a global scale? Now what of that being done on purpose because the people were evil! This seems somewhat logical if we consider it was written during more barbaric, if you will, times. Would you want this story in the modern Bible, though, I mean if you had magic and could just make it disappear, with nobody's memory?

As parents, we love to discipline our children...we see the necessity of it. The only way for them to comprehend good and evil is to see its consecutive consequences. As parents, we also instinctively protect them. Anyone who would do harm to our kids can expect trouble from us. In parallel to this, God had revealed Himself to all mankind as the heavenly Father. He had given His conditions on how to be a member of His family. He disciplines and protects His family. When Noah built the Ark, no one believed him, no one wanted to join God's family despite of Noah's warnings of the coming flood. Thus, they faced the consequences of their unbelief and evil mockeries. They had their chances but they chose to disobey, the door was shut, the flood came and destroyed them all.

I would rather believe that God is good and the flood story is a misfortune.

God's goodness moves Him to send His prophets for warning before He pours out His wrath. His wrath is justified for He is a just God who rewards good and punishes evil. For even the rulers of the earth punishes criminals, how could we put in question the punishment of a just God?

But that is precisely what I do not believe. I don't believe we are predesposed to do evil. I believe we are originally morally neutral. Many external and some internal factors act towards a person making a given choice.

You are partly right in your belief, emeralgirl. There is good in all humans as man was created according to God's image and likeness. We were originally created not just morally neutral but morally good. However, man was given a choice to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Man chose to sin and evil reigned him from that time on, although good also remained. The war between good and evil in his flesh began. But more often than not, evil wins and the global consequences of it is evident. You see, God knew, before we even realized it, our helplessness He lavishly bequeathed us His most precious gem, His only begotten Son. Isn't God really good?

Having said that, I do think that loving God drives people to do what is right more often. However, I don't think this is the exclusive domain of Christians; many non-Christians love God, you can see it in their lives.

The love of God can only be measured by God's standard, not men. Being the author of love, Jesus has perfectly exampled how it is rightly lived. God displayed His love to the world by giving His Son and this love can only be returned to God by accepting His Son. Thus, to reject the Son is to hate God. That is the first and foremost standard of God's love. No one who reject Christ can love God no matter how good he thinks he lives. His good deeds are not sufficient to satisfy God's expectation of loving Him. Again, as a parent you can only like or love people who accept and love your son. No matter how good they live, if they reject your son, you too will reject them.

Although, from the childbirth angle, if evolution were true, I for certain would have voted for "marsupial" childbearing by now!

And I would go for "spiritual pregnancy" childbearing.

[Smalcald]

Yes, that is why I said my ease of accepting the Jesus doctrine was surprising and incongruent. Anyway, the flood takes on a more excuse-making dynamic (at least to me) than the Jesus doctrine. The Jesus one is simple. The flood makes all these pleas to the supernatural to reconcile the things we now know are scientifically impossible or improbable, when it was all an excercise in futility anyway, since God could have made animals, people, trees, whatever over from scratch if he had wanted to, without the need for a 500-year-old geezer to build an ark for a century. (How's that for a run-on?)

And the flood still brings question to God's goodness, besides. Could you drown one person? I couldn't even drown a kitten! When you watched video of the Tsunami that happened that Christmas (2004? I think?), didn't your heart ache? Did you cry, or almost at the sight of those corpses in lines for identification? Can you even begin to fathom that on a global scale? Now what of that being done on purpose because the people were evil! This seems somewhat logical if we consider it was written during more barbaric, if you will, times. Would you want this story in the modern Bible, though, I mean if you had magic and could just make it disappear, with nobody's memory?

I would rather believe that God is good and the flood story is a misfortune.

Hi Emerald,

But a catastrophic climatic event is much much more likely than a corpse rising from the grave. There is much more scientific evidence supporting a world wide climatic event than there is or ever will be of a man who was also God coming to earth via a virgin, then being executed and having His corpse rise.

The funny thing is you say the Jesus doctrine is simple, but I find just the opposite, the mystery of the Trinity and the atonement of Christ for our sins, is much more complex than a simple flood

As far as God's goodness it is not His goodness that is in question, it is our evil natures and almost continual rebellion against God that is the problem. Did Christ die in vain? Do we now denigrate His sacrifice by simply saying, "I'm okay your okay"? God has given us every chance, and indeed those stories we worry about; the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the coming wrath of God when the world ends, are there not to show God's horrible nature, but to show us what we have done to this earth, yet even after all of that we have a Savior who will protect those who call on Him and love Him, a Savior who died for us each individually.

But we can't pick and choose a God that makes us feel good, it is not about us. There is no such thing as a "modern" bible, we can thank God. The modern world is much MORE barbaric than the ancient world, don't be fooled by ideas of human progression, it is a lie and a myth. Simply look at the numbers for the bloodiest century in the history of the world, the 20th. The only human progress is through Christ alone, everything else is meaningless.