Why Atonement anyway?

[Jorge S]

...But for him to have to come up with a sacrafice to atone for sin seems incoherant. Why does death of an innocent "pay" for sin in the first place?

... I am not happy when they disobey, especially if the results are significant. But nobody has to die because they disobeyed me. No blood has to be shed to bring them back into a relationship with me. We just address the problem and move on. In some instances, there might be a logical retribution, like if one child intentionally damaged another child's possession, the errant child would have to restore the possession, if possible. But they don't have to pay in blood because they did something wrong, even if it was outright wrong and not just a foolish mistake.

Hi, Emeraldgirl

I understand the subject is difficult to articulate. I suggest you read Romans and meditate upon it. In the meantime, bear with me.

The capital sin is to disobey God and it leads to progressively worse wrong-doing, including killing of innocent people. God specifically said: 'and surely the blood of your lives will I require. At the hand of every animal will I require it, and at the hand of man. At the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoever sheds man's blood, his blood shall be shed by man; for He made man in the image of God' Gen 9:5-6. See how Jesus judged Israel also on this basis: 'from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the temple. Truly I say to you, It shall be required of this generation.' Luk 11:51

Atonement is a way of restoring what has been lost due to punishable actions and implies repentance. It then avails God's promise of forgiveness. Unrepented sin brings judgement because it does not offer reparation for the fault.

When the Covenant of Law was implemented the killing of people, both deliberate or unintentional, was accounted for as well as many other sins. The severity of the punishment or the value of the atonement depended on the magnitude of the fault. But the Law proved insufficient to regenerate mankind and pure Grace was given through Jesus.

The Bible as a whole describes a journey that goes from perfection (Adam and Eve in Eden) to perfection (the new heavens and the new earth of Revelation.) The first perfection was lost due to the disobedience of one man and it led to progressive lawlessness (see how murder followed just in the second generation); the earth was cursed and likewise mankind in the person of its progenitor. The second perfection has been propitiated by One Man who chose to obey amidst rampant sinfulness and offered His innocent blood to atone for the sins of all. Jesus broke the vicious circle of sin that calls for God's Judgement. Jesus satisfied God's standards of holiness, justice, forgiveness, love and grace. Mankind can now be seen not in respect of Adam's weakness but in respect of Jesus' strength. Adam lived, sinned and died; Jesus died, conquered sin and lives. What lies historically between the two perfections is God's Call for repentance that has been ultimately made through Jesus.

Hope this helps.

Edited July 10, 2006 by Jorge S

[Jorge S]

The concept of accepting God in order to avoid hell is a major issue for me. I have frequently heard how God gave us free will so that we would "choose" him freely. How is this free choice?

This is the scenario: "You have free will. You don't have to worship me. But there is this one little problem. If you don't worship me, you will burn in hell forever". That's a free choice? I believe that it is very easy to see the utter insanity of this.

Sylvan, I hear ya. For myself personally, I believe the choice for God is more to do good in this world. Like, I wouldn't have "chosen" to marry my husband and love him if he held a fire to my hair and said, "If you don't choose to love me, I'll burn you." Even if I consented to marry him to avoid being burned, I wouldn't love him. I could only love him by it being a totally free choice. But now that I am in a relationship with him, I also choose to do good toward him, because it increases his happiness and our family peace. And, thankfully, he reciprocates.

I do believe in an afterlife, but my basis for choosing God doesn't have much to do with the afterlife simply because I only know about this life.

I also teach my children to choose God, but I never hang "hell" over their heads. I emphasize God for the good it tends to bring into people's hearts, not to avoid hell. My daughter has only the sketchist knowledge of hell, which she learned from church and/or friends and frankly, I'm glad.

Beautiful words...it's encouraging to know there are people like you.

God has established covenants. He obliges Himself to act in a certain way according to an arrangement. And He has always been the first not only in offering good things but also in propitiating means of restoring the relationship when we have faulted. He said of Himself to be 'slow in anger' as well as a 'consuming fire.' Which way He acts depends on us.

Covenants are given in terms of blessings and curses in respect of behavioural stipulations. We are blessed when we obey and we are punished when we sin. The Bible is clear in speaking about both the blessings and the curses. Interestingly, punishment is conditional. God does not bring it when we repent. That is why warnings about punishment are always coupled with exhortations to repent. To say otherwise is to misrepresent the Word of God with an agenda.

God bless.

[sylvan3]

The concept of accepting God in order to avoid hell is a major issue for me. I have frequently heard how God gave us free will so that we would "choose" him freely. How is this free choice?

This is the scenario: "You have free will. You don't have to worship me. But there is this one little problem. If you don't worship me, you will burn in hell forever". That's a free choice? I believe that it is very easy to see the utter insanity of this.

Sylvan, I hear ya. For myself personally, I believe the choice for God is more to do good in this world. Like, I wouldn't have "chosen" to marry my husband and love him if he held a fire to my hair and said, "If you don't choose to love me, I'll burn you." Even if I consented to marry him to avoid being burned, I wouldn't love him. I could only love him by it being a totally free choice. But now that I am in a relationship with him, I also choose to do good toward him, because it increases his happiness and our family peace. And, thankfully, he reciprocates.

I do believe in an afterlife, but my basis for choosing God doesn't have much to do with the afterlife simply because I only know about this life.

I also teach my children to choose God, but I never hang "hell" over their heads. I emphasize God for the good it tends to bring into people's hearts, not to avoid hell. My daughter has only the sketchist knowledge of hell, which she learned from church and/or friends and frankly, I'm glad.

Beautiful words...it's encouraging to know there are people like you.

God has established covenants. He obliges Himself to act in a certain way according to an arrangement. And He has always been the first not only in offering good things but also in propitiating means of restoring the relationship when we have faulted. He said of Himself to be 'slow in anger' as well as a 'consuming fire.' Which way He acts depends on us.

Covenants are given in terms of blessings and curses in respect of behavioural stipulations. We are blessed when we obey and we are punished when we sin. The Bible is clear in speaking about both the blessings and the curses. Interestingly, punishment is conditional. God does not bring it when we repent. That is why warnings about punishment are always coupled with exhortations to repent. To say otherwise is to misrepresent the Word of God with an agenda.

God bless.

Very nicely written...

However, I believe that Emeraldgirl and are both nonplussed by the tortuous path God takes with his own creations in order to make things "perfect" when it is God himself who could have made things perfect but chose not to.

The question then becomes: Does God have free will? I will assume your answer is yes. If so, then why is man held accountable for sin and not God? God made man, who sinned supposedly because of free will. However, God, who has free will, and was present in the universe prior to man, created man who sinned (which God knew was going to happen because of omniscience).

[SoulGrind]

I think these are very valid questions. To me , to just say "that's the way things are" is not good enough.

The concept of accepting God in order to avoid hell is a major issue for me. I have frequently heard how God gave us free will so that we would "choose" him freely. How is this free choice?

This is the scenario: "You have free will. You don't have to worship me. But there is this one little problem. If you don't worship me, you will burn in hell forever". That's a free choice? I believe that it is very easy to see the utter insanity of this.

Ok - Let's look at it this way. Right now, you have the choice to kill someone or let them live. It's entirely up to you. However, should you make the choice to kill someone, there are consequences. You will go to prison and in some instances, be given the death penalty.

Now, let us assume for just one moment that the Judge throws the book at you. He sets bail so high that you could NEVER afford the fine. You are sent to prison for 500 years (the rest of your natural life) without the possibility of paroll.

Here in lies the problem - You live in constant imprisonment - cut off from everything you love and hold dear - you are in solitary confinement for the entire length of your sentence - Alone with exception of the guards and their minions who are allowed to abuse you and torture you in shifts around the clock - but you're never allowed to die. You shall never see the light of day. You will live out your life alone, cut off, constantly tortured, and forever "forgotten". Your fate is sealed.

Now what if someone stepped forward and said - "If you repent and change your life and follow my teachings, then I will take your place for you so that you may not be cut off from everything you love and hold dear. If you accept this, your debt will be paid in full. The only other criteria - tell everyone what I have done for you.

Would you accept this gift?

Or would you say, you know, I think I'd rather rot in jail forever, to be forgotten and never see the light of day than to accept your "Get out of jail free card" - following your commands to live a life without murder or other crimes is just too way too much to ask - and I have to tell people about it too? No thank you - Not for me.

That is what attoinment is - It is a gift.

But why????? Why would anyone do this????? What's the point?????

God is a Judge. He is a just Judge. Just like any judge - he has an obligation to uphold the law - no matter how small the crime, it pains him - but the law MUST be upheld. But God said, let me send my only Son who will stand in for everyone so that they may go free - the ultimate sacrifice. And ANYONE and EVERYONE who chooses to follow His ways will be pardoned. And those who reject his sacrifice will suffer the law as if His sacrifice never happened.

Think of it this way. If you committed the crime and you were given the choice... Choose to live out the rest of your days in eternal misery OR go free under the sponsorship of God.

Put yourself in God's shoes. Let's say you do what God does. Everyone gets pardoned. And you say "I'm God, I've saved you. Everyone, come live with me". But then there are those who say "I don't want to live with you. Why did you save me? I didn't want to be saved. I don't want you."

How would this make you feel?

Do you really want people living with you who hate and despise you?

No. Of course not.

God is the same way - so he gives you choices all along. You choose to follow him or not. If you choose to follow him - he promises you that he will take care of your every need in this life and in the next (remember, what we want isn't always what we need).

He also promises you that if you choose to go your own way - he'll leave you be and forget about you forever - He'll say "I never knew you" - he'll give you EXACTLY what you wanted.

But he also told you upfront the consequences. Choose Christ and have life everlasting in Heaven. Deny Christ and have life everlasting in Hell.

Either way - you're going to live forever - one will be paradise - one will be the exact opposite from paradise - and you made the choice.

Now, I don't know about you - but I prefer to be in paradise.

Maybe you like the idea of being alone, being forgotten, and be tortured without end forver. Forever is a pretty long time - try measuring it sometime.

As for why God chose the method of attoinment through the death and resurection of Jesus Christ - It's because God's law requires our very own blood to atone for our sins. So Christ came in our place. But since Christ is perfect and without sin, He was not bound to eternal Damnation and therefore was resurected - talk about pissing Satan off! But, blood was still shed on our behalf - ergo... eternal salvation is ours - but we have to accept it by acknowledging Christ as Lord and Savior of our lives. So now we're back to the choice...

The price has been paid - it's now up to you to either accept the gift or deny the gift.

The ball is now in your court.

[secondeve]

1. God made the world and everything in it. All was perfect to him.

2. The snake entered the Garden. If all was perfect but a moment ago, from whence came the snake?

3. Eve makes a poor choice.

4. Adam makes a poor choice.

5. God says that, essentially, man has chosen to be imperfect, and God will, in his anger, make that so for all-time. But can perfection encompass the potential for imperfection, or would the potential downfall marr creation, so that it was not perfect at the beginning? If so, didn't God know this? If he knew things could change from perfect to imperfect, why create that flaw? If God can create anything, why not create a truly perfect world to begin with, in which we all had free will, but in which there lay no possibility for corruption? It might seem impossible to us, but if God couldn't have done it, then he isn't all-powerful.

6. The world eventually becomes full of Sin. God sends the flood to wipe the slate clean, despite the fact that, if he were all-knowing, he would have seen this coming and mayhap prevented it, or, as in the above example, ensured it never happened.

7. Despite the flood, the world becomes corrupt again after. Why? It was God who created Sin as a punnishment; if this is so, then why would he use a flood to try and wipe it out, knowing it would arise again in men anyway? Why not just revoke Sin? And, if he was all-powerful, why didn't the flood work?

8. God sends his only son to die a bloody and gruesome death on the cross to forgive the Sins of mankind. But if God could have circumvented this, why didn't he? Why torture his son to forgive Sin, but not remove the curse from the world? If God is all-powerful, he could have forgiven us any way we wanted and made us understand. Free will doesn't work as an argument with an omnipotent God; he could've given us that without Sin, as was said before.

9. All of this leaves us with one impression: that if God exists, he is either all-powerful and all-knowing, but not omnibenevolent, or omnibenevolent, but not all-powerful and/or all-knowing. If he could have spared us Sin but given us free will, if he was all-good, he would have - but this isn't what happened.

[SoulGrind]

Sylvan, I hear ya. For myself personally, I believe the choice for God is more to do good in this world. Like, I wouldn't have "chosen" to marry my husband and love him if he held a fire to my hair and said, "If you don't choose to love me, I'll burn you." Even if I consented to marry him to avoid being burned, I wouldn't love him. I could only love him by it being a totally free choice. But now that I am in a relationship with him, I also choose to do good toward him, because it increases his happiness and our family peace. And, thankfully, he reciprocates.

I do believe in an afterlife, but my basis for choosing God doesn't have much to do with the afterlife simply because I only know about this life.

I also teach my children to choose God, but I never hang "hell" over their heads. I emphasize God for the good it tends to bring into people's hearts, not to avoid hell. My daughter has only the sketchist knowledge of hell, which she learned from church and/or friends and frankly, I'm glad.

This is a rather scary thought.

Let me ask you this question...

If you tell your children that the stove is for cooking food, but you never tell them that things can be hot, who is responsible for their burns? Them? Or you for not telling them the consequences of not being careful?

Try this one... you daughter comes to you and asks you about sex and you tell her sex is a beautiful act between two people who are in love. Then your daughter has sex with her first boyfriend. She gets pregnant. Maybe she even gets some form of a sexually trasmitted disease. Now she comes to you saying "Mother - why didn't you tell me this could happen?"

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is a known law of physics and nature. If you believe that God made the world, then you also believe that God made this law. And if this law is always true, then doesn't it go to say that all other "Laws" created by God are true? And if this is the case, then we can state with complete confidence that God plays by his own rules.

With this in mind, if there is a Heaven, there must be a Hell. If there is a demon of eternal damnation known as Satan, there must be a God; a Christ; a Holy Spirit.

Why would you tell someone - there is a God - but you need not worry about anything?

By doing so, you trample under your feet the entire meaning of Christ's sacrifice. You water it down so much that it holds no meaning. Therefore, there is no "fear of God". You have just made God out to be what you want Him to be, not what He truly is. He has no become a "false idol" - Need I quote the 10 commandments?

You have turned God from a "truth" into a "lie" - How? Because whoever you tell about God without telling the whole story will be misinformed. And when they suffer the consequences, they will ask "But why? Why didn't you tell me?" - Their blood will be on your hands and you must stand in judgement for this sin.

Want a biblical reference for this? OK...

"Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul."

[Ezekiel 3:20-21 - KJV]

This is saying do not be a stumbling block to others, lest they enter into sin and as we know, the wages of sin is death. But furthermore, you will be held acountable for their sin as well because you did not warn them. You stood by, silent. Are you going to stand by silent as your children walk into sin? No, of course not. Oh but wait, you haven't told them of any circumstances. So what's the point?

Furthermore, IF you are a Christian and you truly believe that the Bible IS the true and undeniable Word of God, then you acknowledge this passage:

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen"

[Matthew 28:18-20 - KJV]

This is known as the "Great Commission" - to spread the good news. It does not say "Teach them to observe some things". It states to "Teach them to observe ALL THINGS".

Moreover..

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

[Revelation 22:18-19 - KJV]

If you only tell your children "God is good and will take good care of you and give you everlasting happiness" but you never tell them anything more - are you not omitting key elements from God's Word?

And finally - if you tell your children that God is good and will give them everlasting happiness and joy if they believe but never tell them of what happens if they do not believe - they have no real understanding of the sacrifice of Christ and they know not to fear God. And this puts your children in a very dire situation...

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

[Matthew 7:21-23 - KJV]

I fear for you and your children, for the Word of God to be watered down is a sure death for you and your family. Don't believe me? Then you better start reading your Bible and praying for wisdom and enlightenment and face that facts - God is good - but he is also just and while he loves us, he will judge the world and seperate the righteous from the unrighteous - don't fool yourself into thinking that "if you're good enough" that's all it takes.

You also say you don't know about the afterlife... Have you not read the book of Isaiah? the book of Daniel? The books 1 & 2 Thessalonians? The book of Revelation?

These books prohpecy of what is to come and what the next life will be like for both believers and non-believers.

What? You don't believe in prophesy? Look at the book of Genesis and the book of Psalms - they speak of the coming of Christ - this is pre-New Testament. These prophesies happened hundreds of years before Christ. And now we're back to whether or not you believe the Bible is the true and 110% legitament Word of God - if so, then you must acknodlege all these things.

I'm not saying for you to "Hang Hell Over Their Heads" - but they must understand why they are choosing God. Just like when you tell your daughter about the consequences of having unprotected sex. You're hanging pregnancy or STD's over her head - just making her aware - you are empowering her to make an educated decision - what she does at this point is now her choice - you have done your part. But if you do not teach your daughter to put on the armour of the Lord, then you are sending her to her sure death in the fires of Hell.

Oh woe to you!

Edited July 11, 2006 by SoulGrind

[sylvan3]

Soulgrind--

You don't address the question of how a perfect deity creates an imperfect world. How can that logically happen? If you say that he did create a perfect world and that Adam and Eve wrecked it when they CHOSE to sin, I will say that God CHOSE to create them knowing that they would sin. Who then has the ultimate responsibility for putting sin on the earth?

[emeraldgirl]

SoulGrind,

Your examples are absurd. What I teach my children about sex and hot stoves has nothing at all to do with what I teach them about God. The comparison is only working for you because, presumably, you believe it all - the burning forever, the streets of gold and everything in between.

I don't believe in that, and even if I did, I still would never tell my children the reason to choose God is "because if you don't, you'll go to hell where you'll burn and be tortured for ever and ever!"

If you only tell your children "God is good and will take good care of you and give you everlasting happiness" but you never tell them anything more - are you not omitting key elements from God's Word?

I don't tell them that. Frankly, God's goodness is what's on trial in my own life. I said for the good it tends to bring into people's hearts. Not that you trust in God and he will make everything rosy. If only.

Are you going to stand by silent as your children walk into sin?

I never said anything of the sort. When they need correction, I give them correction. If they thought 1+1=5, I would tell them they were incorrect. And then I would give them the correct information and move on. Same with anything else in life.

You also say you don't know about the afterlife... Have you not read the book of Isaiah? the book of Daniel? The books 1 & 2 Thessalonians? The book of Revelation?

Pleaze! Oh, that's all that's missing; I simply haven't read about it? Really, you're assumptions are so silly!

What? You don't believe in prophesy? Look at the book of Genesis and the book of Psalms - they speak of the coming of Christ - this is pre-New Testament. These prophesies happened hundreds of years before Christ. And now we're back to whether or not you believe the Bible is the true and 110% legitament Word of God - if so, then you must acknodlege all these things.

Yeah, I've pretty much covered that in other posts. When I heard there were "over 300" prophecies about the coming Messiah, which Jesus fulfilled, boy I couldn't wait! There would be some awesome information! I was pretty much crestfallen when I tracked down "all those prophecies". Very few were even interesting. "A shoot will come from Jesse..." That is the stunning prophecy? And Psalms - "My God, My God, why hast thou fosaken me?" What is prophetic about that? Jesus said that on the cross? So what, he knew scriptures and said them often. (In spite of all that, I still revere Jesus and am trying to determine just what it is I believe about him, but the prophecies really didn't make any strong arguments in favor.)

but they must understand why they are choosing God.

They do understand this, but Soulgrind, it's not the reason YOU'RE thinking of. They are choosing God because they want to choose righteousness, not evil. They are choosing love over hate, good over evil, others over self. That's all the reason I would ever want them to have.

Just like when you tell your daughter about the consequences of having unprotected sex. You're hanging pregnancy or STD's over her head - just making her aware - you are empowering her to make an educated decision - what she does at this point is now her choice - you have done your part.

FTR, I wouldn't "hang pregnancy or STD's over their heads" to make them aware. I will tell them that those are possibilities. I will tell them that that is why I believe God wants us to share this act only with our spouse. But to just try and use those scare tactics to make them chaste hardly ever works. Why? Because young people do not think that will happen to them. Or they think, "Well, I'll use a condom" or "I'm on the pill". And frankly, "unprotected" sex is not the angle I'm planning to come from. I believe the framework for sex is committed love and in committed love, there is nothing to be "protected" from.

But if you do not teach your daughter to put on the armour of the Lord, then you are sending her to her sure death in the fires of Hell.

I don't believe this, so what you're saying is moot. And besides, no one can make their child make the religious choices they believe to be "right". All you can do is tell them what you believe. Which is what I do. The choice is ultimately up to them.

[EricH]

I'm sorry if I'm being a pain.

Part of what is so annoying about the whole Atonement concept is this: Why is atonement needed anyway?

Please don't say "Because God is holy and we sin."

Here's my analogy. Say I'm your landlord and you owe me $10 million dollars. You can never pay the debt. So, because I love you, I say, "Okay, look, my son will pay it for you. I'm going to sell everything he owns and then sell him into slavery to come up with the ransom for your debt."

The one part that makes no sense is that I'm the landlord in the first place! I could just cancel the debt. If *I* am the one making the requirement, why do I need to create any gymnastics to free you from the debt?

The analogy you have provided doesn't quite work. For a landlord to forgive a monetary debt is an act that is external to his/her core character. In other words, if the landlord forgives your dept, He will be out money, but the essence of who He is will not change.

In terms of sin, God's holiness is a core issue. That is because God's holiness is an essential aspect of His character. He cannot simply turn it off and on. He is holy and just. Let's say God simply gave a pass to everyone. That would violate His justice at the expence of His generosity. What ever solution God came up with had to satisfy every aspect of His eternal character (love, grace, holiness, justice, etc etc)

[emeraldgirl]

For a landlord to forgive a monetary debt is an act that is external to his/her core character.

It's not really about forgiving the debt; it's that the landlord's requirements are the reason there is one in the first place. He has control of what he charges, or even if he charges. That is the analogy to God - he is the one who controlled how everything would be, so why would sin pose any problem? He is like the landlord who could have had NO rent, especially since he would look forward and know that eventually the debts would be $10m and you wouldn't be able to pay it.

I think it's almost impossible to transmit this problem into an internet post.