TheProcess Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 11, 2006 I came across this argument against Calvinism: A true Calvinist teaches that everything that happens has been predestined before the foundation of the world. Thus, according to Calvinism, because I have free agency and no true power to choose contraries (i.e., free will), I do voluntarily what I could never do otherwise. Thus, "My sins last week happened; they were certain to happen; and they were predestined before the foundation of the world. I freely did evil, but I could not have done otherwise." A true Calvinist admits this. Yet St. Paul teaches that, with every temptation, God has made a way to escape from committing the sinful deed (1 Cor 10:13). Therefore, the question for the true Calvinistis: "Which way did God, in fact, provide for you to escape the temptations to do the sins you committed last week, if indeed you are so inclined? That is, if you have been predestined before the foundation of the world to do it?" This is a clear hole in the Calvinist position, forcing one to conclude that Calvinism cannot be reconciled with St. Paul. Clearly, if Calvin is right and one is predestined to commit a particular sin before the foundation of the world, God could not have truly provided a way out of that sin for you to take. How could He if you were predestined not to take it? So, either Calvin is wrong or we are dealing with a God Who feigns offers of deliverance from temptation. So, which is it? Is God a fraud or is Calvin? http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/free.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 I don't know how the Christians around here feel about Calvinism, but my view is that it is an ultra-evil belief system. It is difficult to even imagine a God that would be more evil. Anyway, do we have any Calvinists here that can answer this argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 This is an argument in support of libertarian free will, which Calvinists go against, preferring a compatibilist view of freedom. (Although some hard-core Calvinists may simply deny that we have freedom, but that isn't really relevant here.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 11, 2006 I know nothing about Calvinism. What is it? What is wrong with Calvin's beliefs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 I know nothing about Calvinism. What is it? What is wrong with Calvin's beliefs? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daymon Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 34 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/10/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1974 Share Posted August 11, 2006 I came across this argument against Calvinism: A true Calvinist teaches that everything that happens has been predestined before the foundation of the world. http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/free.htm I'm not a Calvinist nor do I really know what it even is, but it makes more sense to me that it isn't that one sined or didn't, but that they were predestined to be faced with the choice, or the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer of dreams Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 314 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/08/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) Man is flawed God is flawless therefore calvinism is flawed if one were only given a choice between God and calvinism, but who says calvinism is wrong? Actually the real definition of a Calvanist is one who preaches with an emphisis on Gods omnipotence and salvation by Gods grace alone. This religion uses the new testament as a guide for worship. The doctrine of predestiny was a misinterperitation from the bible. The Parable of the Weeds 24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' 28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' " There are those that will continue to sin until the end times, but this is as far as it goes. God never specifically names people that are going to hell. HE DOESN`T WANT THEM TO, but since we have free will we get the choice of letting God in when he knocks, or leaving the door closed. Edited August 11, 2006 by Observer of dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 I see that you didn't get many bites with your bait. The post has only recently been made. I am not a Calvinist, but in all fairness, you (nor the excerpt you quoted) did not fairly or accurately portray Calvinistic beliefs concerning sin, free will, and predestination. You should study a little more to show yourself approved. Well the Calvinists I have spoken with go against liberterian free will. This is my experience. The Professor crudely portrayed Calvinistic salvation beliefs by pointing to the table and saying "you, you, you, you , and you and are predestined to salvation, the rest of you are going to hell and there is nothing you can do about it." That is something that Calvinists object to in my experience. They don't like the claim that the Calvinist God picks people to be saved in an arbitrary or random way. However, whatever Calvinists say, this does seem to be what would happen with "unconditional election". To a Calvinist, it is not our actions that are predestined - only our destination. As I said, in my experience talking with Calvinists they go against libertarian free will. This does involve actions being predestined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.43 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Have you read the Calvin vs. Arminius thread in Doctrinal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 11, 2006 This thread certainly doesn't help the charge leveled against non-believers on baiting us to fight amongst ourselves... Regardless, it does misrepresent the Calvinist position. Calvanism teaches a few things, but concerning sin it teaches: 1) Man has a choice between good and evil 2) Because man is fallen and totally depraved, we will always choose the evil over the good 3) Because of this, God has chosen certain people in His divine sovereignty in order to save them from this What the article attacks is hyper calvinism, not Calvinism itself. Calvinism teaches a limited will and no will in salvation. I am not a Calvinist but hold to many Calvinistic teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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