grapeseed Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 8 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 18, 2006 Just wanted to pose this question. There appears to be much discussion on it from various sects. I am interested in knowing what other Christian denoms/Christian religions, believe regarding those who have never had a knowledge of Christ. For instance, what about someone who has died without ever even hearing about Jesus Christ? Islamists, Hindus, and other peoples easily fall into this category. Seemingly, through no fault of their own, they have not heard the good news. Many are long passed from this world. I was looking this information up on the Internet a few days ago and I never expected to see such a diverging thought in Christianity. I am fairly well versed on what Mormons believe here and now I know what the United Church of God believes on it, as I read their statement of beliefs. Some apologists on the net say that these souls are just lost. What say ye? grapeseed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I speak for myself and no one else. I believe God will judge these people according to the way they lived their lives and the message that's in their heart. Everyone has some kind of knowledge of what's right and what's wrong. Even though the knowledge of God is not with them, some still live their lives as if it was. I don't believe God will condemn someone just because they didn't know Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naziyr Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 113 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/30/1984 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Quite simple really... "For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves, who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing, in a day when G-d judges the hidden things of men, according to my gospel, through Jesus Christ." Romans 2:14-16 Shalom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapeseed Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 8 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/16/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 18, 2006 (edited) I actually believe this myself. Are these personal opinions or do entire denominiations hold this belief? Growing up I had always heard it put that that everyone was born into the world with the light of Christ within them. They may choose to propogate and keep oil to that light or let it burn out. grapeseed I speak for myself and no one else. I believe God will judge these people according to the way they lived their lives and the message that's in their heart. Everyone has some kind of knowledge of what's right and what's wrong. Even though the knowledge of God is not with them, some still live their lives as if it was. I don't believe God will condemn someone just because they didn't know Christ. Edited September 18, 2006 by grapeseed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I actually believe this myself. Are these personal opinions or do entire denominiations hold this belief? I speak for myself and no one else. I believe God will judge these people according to the way they lived their lives and the message that's in their heart. Everyone has some kind of knowledge of what's right and what's wrong. Even though the knowledge of God is not with them, some still live their lives as if it was. I don't believe God will condemn someone just because they didn't know Christ. I don't belong to any denomination. I've never joined a church and at the present time do not attend. My belief's are my own. I study the bible on my own. I don't subscribe to any one person's belief except what is given to me through the Word. Many people frown on this, but it's my soul. I don't believe I have to belong to an organization in order to follow Christ. These are my belief's and until God shows me different, I'm stickin with'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I believe Christ may indeed save those people who do not currently know Him in ways we do not understand or at their point of death or may come to them directly with the Gospel. But it will not be because they have lived moral lives. No one outside of Christ will be saved, we are all equally and totally condemned in our sin, ONLY Christ can remove that sin. This condemnation under sin applies to all humans, no one can ever be good enough to earn their way into heaven, we are as filthy rags on our own, only through Christ can we be saved. If not then Christ was tortured and murdered in vain. We are saved only for the sake of Christ and our faith in Him, not because of what we do or can do (although saving faith of course brings the fruit of acts, which please God). But we must rely only on the providence of God in this matter. Would a loving God, a God who created all existence, who makes Stephen Hawking look as smart as the stupidest dog, would that God create a world where somebody missed salvation because they had the bad luck of being born in the wrong place or time? If they are to be saved it will be through the work of Christ alone and they will have had to believe in Christ, I think this is possible in ways we will never understand and we should probably leave it at that. But of course many will reject Christ and be hardened we also know this from scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyRaven Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,981 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1964 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I actually believe this myself. Are these personal opinions or do entire denominiations hold this belief? Growing up I had always heard it put that that everyone was born into the world with the light of Christ within them. They may choose to propogate and keep oil to that light or let it burn out. grapeseed This is entirely false. The Bible says man is inherently evil (Jeremiah 17:9; Genesis 6:5) and is born dead in transgression (Psalm 51:5; Ephesians 2:1, 5). Men Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 18, 2006 Ignorance does not save or excuse a person from hell. If this were the case, then sending missionaries and obeying the great commission would be the cruelest thing any of us could ever do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapeseed Posted September 18, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 8 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/16/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 18, 2006 I don't believe it is false and I read that is not false. The verses you list basically say that we are sinners. This is true. We are born. We are human so we will sin. However, each of us, unless there is some sort of genetic defect, is born and generally know right and wrong even without having known of Christ. (And even then we don't know the full effect on those even with genetic disorders.) Else, how will people be judged who never had an opportunity to know Christ in their lives? This does not mean that we cannot push the light out at some point. People do indeed do this. At that point, their whole life is filled with darkness. Ultimately, the scripture says this... See John 1:9 , http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx...mp;byte=4760421 "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." Matthew Henry puts it like this... "But how does Christ enlighten every man that comes into the world? (1.) By his creating power he enlightens every man with the light of reason; that life which is the light of men is from him; all the discoveries and directions of reason, all the comfort it gives us, and all the beauty it puts upon us, are from Christ." grapeseed I actually believe this myself. Are these personal opinions or do entire denominiations hold this belief? Growing up I had always heard it put that that everyone was born into the world with the light of Christ within them. They may choose to propogate and keep oil to that light or let it burn out. grapeseed This is entirely false. The Bible says man is inherently evil (Jeremiah 17:9; Genesis 6:5) and is born dead in transgression (Psalm 51:5; Ephesians 2:1, 5). Men Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naziyr Posted September 19, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 113 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/30/1984 Share Posted September 19, 2006 On a side note, Matthew Henry isn't the grand poobah or Guru of Christian Theology. Alot of what commented on was anti-Judaic which has tainted a vast part of his "commentary". He was raised in "Social Christian Morality" in which Jews were commonly seen as "forsaken", even the ones that repented and held to the Law (as Paul did), because they didn't claim "Christianity". The verse you are referring to is in effect, what I already posted before. Christ is the Light of the world, and the Light of all men, and what is Light commonly pictured as? Goodness, Righteousness, etc. etc. (review John's letters). All men have some goodness in them. It is why even a secular culture can have acts of mercy and compassion, though all were born as slaves to sin. Why do we have some light in us? Because we were made in the image of our physical Fathers (up to Adam) and Adam was made in the image of G-d. We inherited goodness from the Father. As I said through scripture: "For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves, who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing, in a day when G-d judges the hidden things of men, according to my gospel, through Jesus Christ." Romans 2:14-16 Well.. let's break it down... "For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law they not having Law are a law to themselves, who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them" those who do not have G-d's Word, do what is Lawful (even at times), and therefore have a standard to go by which is mirrored in the Law. This Law which is compliant with the Law of G-d, which bears whitness against them in their conscience. "and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing, in a day when G-d judges the hidden things of men, according to my gospel, through Jesus Christ." the thoughts between one another to this effect, when one acts accordingly to the Law, lets each other of that people, have a whitness against transgressors of that Law, which mirrors The Law of G-d, and will be used against them when G-d judges all man G-d is Just in that, even apart from His Law, men are judged by their own concience. Everyone has a standard. But there is no biblical evidence that suggest men will be whitnessed to in the afterlife, not scriptural, or philosophical...based on "Universalism" for all mankind. In other words, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander". Afterlife whitnessing is unjust, as it places the ignorant in a better position to recieve salvation, than those who are of the faith. If you don't think G-d doesn't kill people for their ignorance of Him, take a look at all the nations He had wiped out by Israel, even though they sinned in ignorance of Him. Ignorance isn't as blissfull as it seems anymore is it? Shalom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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