The Ultimate Sacrifice

[pointer]

Hoosier,

You may very well be conversing with an individual who has been gifted with the spiritual gift of martyrdom. It is a gift, or calling, and he just may have it. Of course we should all be willing to die for Jesus, but in some cases, people have that extra anointing on them, for that may be the way God is asking them to go. Maybe he doesn't even know it.

I would suggest you accept what he says and pray for him.

Does anybody really believe that a spiritual git can be martyrdom?????

I do.

But you did not reply to a post asking for evidence that you are telling the truth.

In fact, many years ago I took a test to help discover the general indicators of the spiritual gifting(s) I may have, and martyrdom was a gift included in there. Don't mock it, though, please, as it was an excellent test and we did do a lot of discussion in classes about this area, so it wasn't a superficial activity. We were earnestly seeking.

We are being asked to believe a tenet of faith on the basis of an individual's testimony, an individual quite unknown to us personally. This, I think, is improper grounds on which to base a claim for right belief, and would lower the minimum standard for proof below what is acceptable for the church. This standard would provide carte blanche for false teachers if adopted generally.

There is no Biblical basis for a spiritual gift of martyrdom, and to my knowledge, no suggestion of it in the history of the last 2000 years, which is very varied in the following of beliefs of many sorts.

All Christians must be prepared to die for the sake of Christ, or they are not worthy of Him.

[LadyRaven]

Hoosier,

You may very well be conversing with an individual who has been gifted with the spiritual gift of martyrdom. It is a gift, or calling, and he just may have it. Of course we should all be willing to die for Jesus, but in some cases, people have that extra anointing on them, for that may be the way God is asking them to go. Maybe he doesn't even know it.

I would suggest you accept what he says and pray for him.

Does anybody really believe that a spiritual git can be martyrdom?????

I do.

But you did not reply to a post asking for evidence that you are telling the truth.

In fact, many years ago I took a test to help discover the general indicators of the spiritual gifting(s) I may have, and martyrdom was a gift included in there. Don't mock it, though, please, as it was an excellent test and we did do a lot of discussion in classes about this area, so it wasn't a superficial activity. We were earnestly seeking.

We are being asked to believe a tenet of faith on the basis of an individual's testimony, an individual quite unknown to us personally. This, I think, is improper grounds on which to base a claim for right belief, and would lower the minimum standard for proof below what is acceptable for the church. This standard would provide carte blanche for false teachers if adopted generally.

There is no Biblical basis for a spiritual gift of martyrdom, and to my knowledge, no suggestion of it in the history of the last 2000 years, which is very varied in the following of beliefs of many sorts.

All Christians must be prepared to die for the sake of Christ, or they are not worthy of Him.

Unless someone points me to it, I have not seen any indication thus far from the Holy Word of God that there is an actual, listed spiritual gift given the name 'marytrdom' by the writers under the direction of the Holy Spirit. I would think if it were an actual gift (like tongues or discernment) it would be listed there. This does not mean that the individual in question does not have other talents which are not listed or that he does not have an abnormally incredible strength of character which would make him a "good" martyr. I am however, very particular about using the phrase "spiritual gifts" the same way that scripture does. There's a list there. Those are the gifts.

As far as how to approach said individual...there is not enough information to see if he is on dangerous ground or not. However, it is easier imo to die for what you care for than to live for it. Living requires a longer commitment.

[Artemus Prime]

I don't know if I would limit spiritual gifts to just specifically what's listed in Scripture. Any talent or ability one has that can be used to enlighten/encourage others to the glory of God would fall under the category of a spiritual gift.

[pointer]

I don't know if I would limit spiritual gifts to just specifically what's listed in Scripture. Any talent or ability one has that can be used to enlighten/encourage others to the glory of God would fall under the category of a spiritual gift.

Give an example.

[LadyRaven]

I don't know if I would limit spiritual gifts to just specifically what's listed in Scripture. Any talent or ability one has that can be used to enlighten/encourage others to the glory of God would fall under the category of a spiritual gift.

No, it would be a talent or a gift of a general nature. There is a list of spiritual gifts and nothing to indicate that we can add to it and give what we have "discovered" the same weight as what was already there.

I have many gifts, only a few of them are, biblically, spiritual gifts.

[Naziyr]

Our martyrdom is a Gift we give to the Savior, our precious King.

But the gift... as it pertains to us is truly a gifting I believe. If you read reports of martyrs (which martyrdom isn't JUST dying, it's also persecution), you will see that these people are gifted with a supernatural... peace and calm when enduring martyrdoms. The average human being is not capable of being a martyr, nor is the faithless believer. At the first sign of persecution or possiblity of death, they are quick to take back their statement of faith. The believers that are of the martyrs are gifted in a way that we should all be gifted in, in that we have a gift of hope and security in our L-rd which compells us to give all, for who gave all for us.

Is matyrdom a gift?

Truly it is a gift to all those who believe, and a gift to the one whom our love is given.

But in reference to the original post... it's good to be excited about martyrdom, for fundamentally we are to be continually martyrs in that we must die daily for Christ. So I'd encourage the brother to seek out ways he could pursue martyrdom in a healthy fashion. Remind him of what he has to give up to gain the fullness of Christ, and set him on that path of "dying daily".

Shalom

[pointer]

The average human being is not capable of being a martyr, nor is the faithless believer.

What is a faithless believer?

[irishcowboy]

I'm not saying we should actively persue a course that leads to death but, especially these days, we should be faithful even unto death.

Just co-incidentally, you will see more fundamentalists in heaven than Liberal theologians. It is the better side of the fence to fall on.

Surely the only safe course is to stay on the fence (or the highway of Isa. 35), and be an evangelical.

personnally i am not walking the fence, for on a fence you can fall either way, i have chosen to walk on the side of the fence that Christ walked on.....

Even Christ slipped out when He knew it was not time for Him to die yet.... but when His time came, He laid His life down, it was not taken, He Laid it down.... for as it is written, He could have called down a 1000 angels to lift Him off the cross, or deliver Him at any given time......He did not do that.....

my life no longer belongs to me, if I die for any reason it is only God that holds that card, the power of death is not in the hands of those doing the killing, it only comes from the Lord above.... the Power of Life also comes from the Lord, not from a terrorist, or a judge that is against Christ......

they were unable to put John to death..... they tryed several ways and times to kill John.... but could not....

so they bannished him.... John was willing to die for Christ, but God was not done with him yet.....

in Revelation, you will see there are people under the alter, asking when they will be avenged.... and told that the time had not come yet....these are martyrs....believed to be the Tribulation Martyrs....

the ultimate gift a person can give to another, is his life......

Christ gave the Ultimate Sacrifice, ours is not the ultimate sacrifice, for we are unable to do what Christ did for us.... we can, however, give our life so that another might live and find Christ.....

mike

[DInsights]

There is a standard with which to "discern" a spiritual gift. It is found 1 Cor. 12: 1-6.

1. All spiritual gifts must be given by the Spirit (vs. 4)
   
2. All spiritual gifts must be administered by our Lord Jesus Christ (vs. 5)
   
3. All spiritual gifts must be operated (worked out) by God our Father (vs. 6).
   

Is "martrydom" given by the Spirit? Is "martyrdom" administered by our Lord Jesus Christ?? Is "martyrdom" worked out by God???

If it were the case(s), why then would God avenge the blood of martyrs? Rather, God commanded in Exd 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."

WE ARE MADE TO PARTAKE IN THE SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST

There is marked difference between being MADE to be something and being given same thing; heirs of salvation are made to partake in the sufferings of Christ unto death...but not gifted to martyrdom.

Our Lord Jesus Christ was made a little lower than angels for the "suffering of death"; He was made that way and not given a spiritual gift of suffering of death. Sufferings of Christ were unto a certain type of glory called salvation. That is why is written in Hbr 2:10 :

For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

We are also made to conform to the sufferings of Christ, even suffering unto His death:

Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being MADE conformable unto his death;

Again it is written in Rom 8:18:

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST" AND "MARTYRDOM"

There should be no mistaking the "sufferings of Christ" unto glory for "martyrdom" that does not glorify. A man is justified by the righteousness of faith through the resurrection of Christ and not through martyrdom. For there is no work of man, even martyrdom, that counts toward salvation that is of the glory of God. As it is written in Romans 10:4:

For Christ is the end of the law of righteousness to every one that believeth

Therefore, of what use is a spiritual gift of "martyrdom" when Christ is the end (all-in-all goal) of the law of righteousness? None whatsoever! For Christ resurrected after death on behalf of sins of the world that He might be justified (declared righteous) in that resurrection. But a martyr's death is not on behalf of (or for the sins of) the murderer but both against the martyr and the commandment of God against killing.

Some, like Apostle Paul and others were/are empowered to intercede on behalf of the Church for the sufferings of Christ, see Col 1:24:

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Yeah, it is the sufferings of Christ as an intercesion for the sins yet present in the Church...that saints may be raised up in Him unto righteousness and ultimately unto the salvation of God.

Grace and peace from God and from our Lord Jesus Christ unto all!

Edited October 11, 2006 by DInsights