Need a good paraphrase translation...

[Marnie]

Butero and I agree on most everything, except the veracity and accuracy of the NIV. It is, in fact, an excellent translation--as good as any modern version can be. The continuing holding on to the archaic and arcane KJV is a little disturbing. I don't know of too many Biblical scholars who consider the kJV to be a scholarly representation of the original, except for those who desperately hold to the KJV-Only mentality. I read the KJV, but do not consider it superior to the NIV, but it certainly is superior to the LB, GNB and the parade of really lousy "modern" translations/paraphrases.

Now, the word "abomination" comes to mind when thinking of the Good News Bible (the one with the stick figures in it) and the truly heinous Message. Blech.

[pointer]

I don't see it as the Word of God. I see it as a tainted version of the Bible. It contains some truth and some lies. No, I am not claiming that those who draw closer to God in spite of a false translation are an abomination.

If they believe lies, they must be an abomination, unless the lies are of scant importance. Are KJVOers significantly better Christians than those who read any other version? Are they better Christians that those who read Scripture in original languages?

If so, how are they better? If not, why aren't they?

Utter rubbish. Most people leave their Bibles on a shelf collecting dust so the translation makes little difference there.

I think most of them are KJVs in presentation cases given as presents on special occasions. There are countless very well worn NIVs, GNBs, NKJVs and Living Bibles out there, though. There are schools and churches that stock NRSVs that get very frequent use, and people do not fork out good money for a NLT just because it looks pretty. But there are, I suppose, people under 80 years old who actually read the KJV for private devotions, though I don't know any personally. Presumably you do. Do you consider that the pure, untainted KJV produces more spiritual persons than lesser translations produce? Are NIV readers particularly abominable? If not, is it possible that your assessment is incorrect?

In the cases where people read from new translations, and "draw closer to God," I would say so what? Most of these same people are getting their actual doctrine from a tv minister or pastor of a church.

The very same goes for KJVO people. More so, I would say, as the KJV seems to be more fervently favoured by a certain sort of preacher than by Christians as a whole.

Very few read the Bible without the aid of commentaries, etc. so the conclusions they come to are the result of other's labour, for better or worse.

That goes for KJV readers at least as much as other readers. It seems to me, from long experience, that a lot of people did not know what their KJVs actually said until the NIV came along, and they did not enjoy the revelation.

It is possible to reach someone on the mission field and have no Bible to be able to give them, yet they can seek the Lord daily in prayer and still draw closer to him.

Of course. One missioner recently told me that he would not use the KJV in mission unless he wanted to put people off for life. I don't think he is atypical at all.

As far as the question of are KJO believers better Christians, that is a loaded question. Not everyone is a doer of the Word. Many are hearers only. As such, it is possible that a person with no Bible can live a better life than one with a Bible.

The question is not loaded, the reply is completely irrelevant. However, it could appear from this reply that, for some religious people, a non-believer could be preferable to a believer with a modern Bible.

There are unfortunately Christians who have no Bible, but all Christians love the Bible, and read it frequently, if they have one.

As far as reading the original language, once again irrelivant. The only way this argument holds up is if the person reading the original language is reading from the textus receptus used by the KJV translators.

So why is second best accepted? Why not use Greek for the NT, which has been the evangelical standard since evangelicalism and indeed Protestant scholarship arose? Why are we even talking translations for adults? It would seem insane to evangelicals of a generation ago, I can assure you.

Of course, this is assuming that the TR is superior to the Critical Text or the other sources used by almost all modern translators, which may not be the case. This argument does not apply to the OT, of course, and the KJV has no advantage here. Why is the KJV superior in the OT?

What is wrong with the NKJV, which you were asked about?

And do KJVOers really expect 11 year olds to read the KJV?

If not, then the person using the KJV Bible will come out with more truth. In addition, it still comes down to who chooses to follow the Word and not just understand it as to who makes the better Christian.

So one can be a satisfactory Christian believing lies? Why does the choice of translation matter at all?

[pointer]

Butero and I agree on most everything, except the veracity and accuracy of the NIV. It is, in fact, an excellent translation--as good as any modern version can be. The continuing holding on to the archaic and arcane KJV is a little disturbing. I don't know of too many Biblical scholars who consider the kJV to be a scholarly representation of the original, except for those who desperately hold to the KJV-Only mentality. I read the KJV, but do not consider it superior to the NIV, but it certainly is superior to the LB, GNB and the parade of really lousy "modern" translations/paraphrases.

Now, the word "abomination" comes to mind when thinking of the Good News Bible (the one with the stick figures in it) and the truly heinous Message. Blech.

The NIV is considered very good, but also very bad, by many scholars, and needs watching carefully. I agree about the LB.

Could you provide an example or two of abominations of the GNB? It seems to me to have been produced in that balmy time when the devil was caught unawares by modern versions, and since then has smuggled in more and more horrible heresies.

The only real solution is original languages. As evangelicalism is largely apostate today, and very few preachers bother to teach from them, an interlinear and lexicon is a very good start.

[speckles]

i think it's an abomination that people pass judgement and say that the NIV is an abomination. it's a version that millions of people have used to get closer to God. so essentially anyone who is KJV only is saying that if someone is drawing closer to God is doing it in a way that they (the kjv crowd) doesn't approve of, then the seeker's relationship with God is abominable.

somehow i don't think God would appreciate such arrogance.

i'll say this again. the word of God never comes back void.

Much agreed, Lady C, and amen to that!

This is me giving an arrogant laugh.

There are things which can be misinterpreted by people when they read the NIV. The story of David and Jonathan sounds...gay... in the NIV.

[speckles]

Butero and I agree on most everything, except the veracity and accuracy of the NIV. It is, in fact, an excellent translation--as good as any modern version can be. The continuing holding on to the archaic and arcane KJV is a little disturbing. I don't know of too many Biblical scholars who consider the kJV to be a scholarly representation of the original, except for those who desperately hold to the KJV-Only mentality. I read the KJV, but do not consider it superior to the NIV, but it certainly is superior to the LB, GNB and the parade of really lousy "modern" translations/paraphrases.

Now, the word "abomination" comes to mind when thinking of the Good News Bible (the one with the stick figures in it) and the truly heinous Message. Blech.

The NIV is considered either very good, but also very bad, by many scholars, and needs watching carefully. I agree about the LB.

Could you provide an example or two of abominations of the GNB? It seems to me to have been produced in that balmy time when the devil was caught unawares by modern versions, and since then has smuggled in more and more horrible heresies.

The only real solution is original languages. As evangelicalism is largely apostate today, and very few preachers bother to teach from them, an interlinear and lexicon is a very good start.

Wow, such optimism. It astounds me.

[pointer]

Could you provide an example or two of abominations of the GNB? It seems to me to have been produced in that balmy time when the devil was caught unawares by modern versions, and since then has smuggled in more and more horrible heresies.

I would argue that no new translation caught the devil off guard since he is the inspiration behind them.

Of course you would! What you possibly can't see is that King James was not entirely uninfluenced by Satan, worldliness and avarice. There is no published translation that is anything like perfect, even when there is no political pressure (which is never yet), and the KJV translators said so about their own efforts. Those who know nothing of original languages have absolutely nothing to say about that.

I already answered your other questions.

You haven't really started, just written blether, and I now assume you have no answers.

While I have read passages from the GNB in the past, I don't own a copy to make examples from.

I didn't ask you. Can you try to answer the appropriate posts, please?

By the way, my Grandmother gave me a King James Bible as a child, and I could read it with no problem at age 11. It is not that difficult to do.

I know. I read it perfectly to my sister when I was four. But reading is not understanding, as those who are actually engaged in mission professionally know very well indeed.

[pointer]

God has the power and did preserve his Word in the KJV. It has no errors in it.

O wise judge, O fount of knowledge. Yes, Gabriel spoke to Muhammad, too.

I disagree with your claim about knowing other languages. That is the same argument homosexuals and other heretics use to try to discredit those who challenge their positions.

Homosexuals rarely know a single word of Greek or Hebrew, and when they try it they get it spectacularly wrong! It's something they have in common with KJVOers!

You asked for two examples from the GNB of abominations.

Not from you, dear soul. Ducking and diving does nothing for the cred of KJVO, y'know.

I would imagine if you read any Bible version to a 4 year old, they would have trouble fully comprehending what you are saying.

You could read the KJV to anyone and not guarantee that they would understand much! That was King James' little ruse. A 4 y.o. has much more chance with the GNB, which was not available when I was 4, and that is Satan's work, which he will pay very dearly for.

[pointer]

God has the power and did preserve his Word in the KJV. It has no errors in it.

O wise judge, O fount of knowledge. Yes, Gabriel spoke to Muhammad, too.

I disagree with your claim about knowing other languages. That is the same argument homosexuals and other heretics use to try to discredit those who challenge their positions.

Homosexuals rarely know a single word of Greek or Hebrew, and when they try it they get it spectacularly wrong! It's something they have in common with KJVOers!

You asked for two examples from the GNB of abominations.

Not from you, dear soul. Ducking and diving does nothing for the cred of KJVO, y'know.

I would imagine if you read any Bible version to a 4 year old, they would have trouble fully comprehending what you are saying.

You could read the KJV to anyone and not guarantee that they would understand much! That was King James' little ruse. A 4 y.o. has much more chance with the GNB, which was not available when I was 4, and that is Satan's work, which he will pay very dearly for.

I am glad you have finally come to see it my way about the KJV being without error, but your belief that Gabriel spoke to Muhammad is heretical.

My tongue was in my cheek, old fellow. Read it again.

I have run across more than one homosexual who knew Hebrew and Greek fluently and used that argument to fend off all critics.

So are you saying that the Bible supports homosexuality, Butero? Surprising King James didn't pick up on that.

I never saw you put a name on who was supposed to give you the verses from the GNB.

As you don't possess a GNB, it was pretty daft to even think of replying. I suspect you simply wanted to avoid the torrent of embarrassing questions for your own view.

A 4 year old might understand more from the GNB than the KJB, but what they got would be less accurate.

You can't say anything, because if you knew any Greek or Hebrew, you would be like the homosexuals!

[pointer]

I knew you were being sarcastic about Muhammed.

But you tried to pretend that you took me literally, and took the opportunity to call me a heretic, as well as a homosexual?

"When you can't win, smear." Not a worthy motto. Or is it?

I don't claim to be fluent in Greek and Hebrew. Homosexuals and cult leaders often learn these languages and then claim those who aren't fluent in them aren't qualified to speak

How would you know that they knew any Hebrew or Greek? Maybe they were ordinary guys who took you for a sap, and had some fun at your expense.

You wouldn't have known I didn't have a GNB if I didn't tell you now would you

And it's not surprising if people have fun at your expense. You shouldn't have told me.

Too late now.

[EricH]

God has the power and did preserve his Word in the KJV. It has no errors in it.

You might want to reconsider this claim. Even strong proponents of the KJV admit that it contains translation errors. prior to 1611, Latin was the predominant scholarly language. The Latin Vulgate of Jerome was based on the Alexandrian texts which contained errors. In many instances the translators of the KJV did not have access to greek manuscripts, so they copied data out of the vulgate. There are about 80 places in the NT where the KJV adopts a "Latin Translation" not found in better greek manuscripts that were found later. Erasmus had a very bad text of Revelation (it was incomplete) and thus many errors were copied into the KJV version of revelation.

If you want some examples I can provide them