khalou Posted October 8, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 251 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 8, 2006 The atheists that have responded to my topic have an ideology, not a philosophy. Nothing one says in favor of God can ever be sufficient for you. You take things personally that you shouldn't, you have an attitude with people you don't know, you make grand arguments based on flat statements, and refuse to answer questions that violate your ideology. 1. God is not testable By your logic newton is not testable and is therefore non-exsistant, and let me explain why. Both God and Newtons laws are factual and hold ground when scrutinized, both Newton and God have a history that is recorded in books written by them, or people that knew them very well. Both Newton and God have been seen by humans and their accounts have been recorded. Why is it that you can say Newton exsisted and not say God exsists? Is it because there is a tombstone with his name? Have you ever seen his body? I disagree with this statment that God is not testable just as much as I disagree with the statment that Newton is untestable. 2.There is no such thing as an absolute moral standard that can be derived from the Bible. Yes there is, read it again. It is as plain as the nose on your face. Really? Then how come Christians can't agree on it? Stop arguing with me and talk to me. 3. Are you suggesting that without God, people run rampant? Did I suggest that? Or are you twisting what I said around to mean something it's not? My statment was that people behave certain ways and the bible shows a map of all possible behavior patterns but you can take whatever you want out of it. 4. [A]Hardly. The Bible would have you pray for peace in an emotionally intense situation. If you get it, (and, believe me, you will) then you will repress your emotions.[C] That is not healthy. [D]Belief in a God doesn't change anything except the individual's perception. Bad things happen? It is because either God is testing me, or teaching me something. Good things happen? It is because God is rewarding me, or Satan is tempting me. [E]But there is no difference between a believer and a non-believer in what they experience in reality. [F1]Christianity works, of that I have no doubt.[F2] But there is no way to determine whether it is because there is a God, or because of the perspective one gains of reality by believing. [A] Hardly what? If you repress your emotions it is a sign your not really trusting God with your prayer, therefore your not really praying but worrying out loud. [C]What isn't healthy? [D]Really? How do you know what it is like for a person of faith when you don't believe yourself? I can tell you what my experience was living in a trailer 5 years ago, but just because I didn't like it doesn't mean it's bad to live in trailers. [E]I thought there perceptions were different. [F1]Then why aren't you a christian if it works so well, and why don't you doubt that it works?[F2] Do you think there could be the possibility that it could be both? or neither? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer of dreams Posted October 8, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 314 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/08/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 8, 2006 LEPACA. Done what? I already clarified my mistake and apologized in the post before your rant. This has happened alot with you. Test his laws? o_O When did we go from testing God to testing some laws? In this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightofJesus Posted October 9, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 362 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/04/1955 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Butting in here. Lol you've done it again lepeca. I already explained before you posted the statment above that I didn't mean the word theory to mean scientific theory but I meant it as music theory and I apologized for my mistake. god is testable, test his laws and try and find a flaw with them. Since you have an ideology and not a philosophy you will not find any evidence saticfactory. If you cannot find a flaw with his laws you will dismiss them anyways. God is not testable. Atheist I see what you mean by "we don't need God's law, just a basic understanding of psychology." My argument is that a child knows that when he takes something it is wrong. The bible is like a complete moral dictionary of all bad and good behavior. Bad behavior is the temptation part and good behavior is love of God. If you think about it temptaion and sin usually make one feel bad and they continue in a circle from. There is no such thing as an absolute moral standard that can be derived from the Bible. From a psychological standpoint one would classify being tempted as High risk behavior, they repeat high risk behavior because they get a high from it, then fall into a slump of depression after the initial joy wears off, then they repeat the cycle. In the love of God behavior this high risk is eliminated and one learns to get high off of leaving a really big tip on someone elses table instead of stealing a tip off of a table. They realize that they don't have to face negative consequences when they get high in this way and continue to do good. Are you suggesting that without God, people run rampant? The reason I hold the bible above psychology is because everything in the above paragragh is in the bible. The art of psychology was invented in the end of the 19th century but everything you needed to know about it was already there. Hardly. The Bible would have you pray for peace in an emotionally intense situation. If you get it, (and, believe me, you will) then you will repress your emotions. That is not healthy. Belief in a God doesn't change anything except the individual's perception. Bad things happen? It is because either God is testing me, or teaching me something. Good things happen? It is because God is rewarding me, or Satan is tempting me. But there is no difference between a believer and a non-believer in what they experience in reality. Christianity works, of that I have no doubt. But there is no way to determine whether it is because there is a God, or because of the perspective one gains of reality by believing. k k Hi! I don't know if you remember me in another post but I just read something in this post you wrote and I have to say that I just went through the passing of my husband and I would not have got through it if it were not for the Lord with me. I knew He was there the WHOLE time and He let's you cry all you want, and yell all you want, or even get mad at Him if you want. I have not repressed my feelings at all and guess what? He is not mad at me! You see faith is not something you can actually see it is something you just live. It is a knowing in your own spirit and you go forward. We all makes mistakes and have to go through things to get stronger in areas we are weak in. I am much stronger now than I ever was, I made some stupid mistakes while going through this grieving and God saw me through! If it was not for Him I am telling I would not be writing to you right now. The enemy wanted me out of here. I actually was running away from my grief and I was running right to the enemy's trap. I give God all the glory because He is the one who stopped me. I may tell the whole story sometime but I can tell that the invisible HAND of God held me and stopped me in my tracts! He is real and I know it because my life is a witness to it. You can to that to the bank!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer of dreams Posted October 9, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 314 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/08/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 (edited) Oh ok. So, why would I test "his" laws? Is it relevant to the fact that God is not testable? Yes it is. If man is flawed and creates laws the laws are therefore flawed, or incomplete, but if they are really Gods' laws then they will be flawless, and complete. An example is psychology. They are still adding to the database of psychological knowledge, but everything they add is in the bible already. For instance there is this brand new breakthrough in behavioral psychology called tru-thought, but the three main tactics they use in tru-thought is in the book of proverbs. The three main tactics one uses when being irresponsible are; 1. Shifts the blame and the focus 2. Lies and decieves 3. Avoids obligations I can find passages in the bible for all three of these "new" behavioral tactics because they are in proverbs, or mathew. For "lies and decieves" Proverbs 14:8 The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the folly of fools is deception. Under "shifts the blame and the focus" Proverbs 10:18 He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander is a fool. under "avoids obligations" Proverbs 10:4 Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth. Proverbs 12:27 Proverbs 1 The Purpose of Proverbs 1 These are the proverbs of Solomon, David’s son, king of Israel. 2 Their purpose is to teach people wisdom and discipline, to help them understand the insights of the wise. 3 Their purpose is to teach people to live disciplined and successful lives, to help them do what is right, just, and fair. 4 These proverbs will give insight to the simple, knowledge and discernment to the young. There are also 20 subcatogories for the three main tactics, These also are in the bible, as well as thought barriers that acompany them. I wont get into it right now, but all I'm trying to say is that we haven't been able to improve on the knowledge already in the bible, only bring new things to the table as man advanced through the aeon. New things like arithmetic, or astronomy [these are not present in the bible] Whatever is already in the bible cannot be made any better than it already is by the hands of mankind. Edited October 9, 2006 by Observer of dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted October 9, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Oh ok. So, why would I test "his" laws? Is it relevant to the fact that God is not testable? Yes it is. If man is flawed and creates laws the laws are therefore flawed, or incomplete, but if they are really Gods' laws then they will be flawless, and complete. An example is psychology. They are still adding to the database of psychological knowledge, but everything they add is in the bible already. For instance there is this brand new breakthrough in behavioral psychology called tru-thought, but the three main tactics they use in tru-thought is in the book of proverbs. The three main tactics one uses when being irresponsible are; 1. Shifts the blame and the focus 2. Lies and decieves 3. Avoids obligations I can find passages in the bible for all three of these "new" behavioral tactics because they are in proverbs, or mathew. For "lies and decieves" Proverbs 14:8 The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the folly of fools is deception. Under "shifts the blame and the focus" Proverbs 10:18 He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander is a fool. under "avoids obligations" Proverbs 10:4 Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth. Proverbs 12:27 Proverbs 1 The Purpose of Proverbs 1 These are the proverbs of Solomon, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khalou Posted October 10, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 251 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 10, 2006 (edited) I want to reply to this, but am having technical difficulty. I'll try it this way- My responses are in bold. 1. God is not testable By your logic newton is not testable and is therefore non-exsistant, and let me explain why. Both God and Newtons laws are factual and hold ground when scrutinized, both Newton and God have a history that is recorded in books written by them, or people that knew them very well. Both Newton and God have been seen by humans and their accounts have been recorded. Why is it that you can say Newton exsisted and not say God exsists? Is it because there is a tombstone with his name? Have you ever seen his body? I disagree with this statment that God is not testable just as much as I disagree with the statment that Newton is untestable. I don't understand why you need to add the phrase "and is therefore non-existent". Where did that come from? Not from me. Then you go on to list reasons to believe in God and Newton, not tests against their existence. Why is that? God is not testable is all I said. 2.There is no such thing as an absolute moral standard that can be derived from the Bible. Yes there is, read it again. It is as plain as the nose on your face. The moral standard that I get from the Bible is that everyone should be in jail because all fall short. If you want to disagree, then you will have to argue against the entirety of Christianity, not me. If you want to say that you live by a Christian Moral Standard, and I don't, then you will have to argue against Jesus Himself, not me. 3. Are you suggesting that without God, people run rampant? Did I suggest that? Or are you twisting what I said around to mean something it's not? My statment was that people behave certain ways and the bible shows a map of all possible behavior patterns but you can take whatever you want out of it. No. I was wrong. 4. [A]Hardly. The Bible would have you pray for peace in an emotionally intense situation. If you get it, (and, believe me, you will) then you will repress your emotions.[C] That is not healthy. [D]Belief in a God doesn't change anything except the individual's perception. Bad things happen? It is because either God is testing me, or teaching me something. Good things happen? It is because God is rewarding me, or Satan is tempting me. [E]But there is no difference between a believer and a non-believer in what they experience in reality. [F1]Christianity works, of that I have no doubt.[F2] But there is no way to determine whether it is because there is a God, or because of the perspective one gains of reality by believing. [A] Hardly what? If you repress your emotions it is a sign your not really trusting God with your prayer, therefore your not really praying but worrying out loud. [C]What isn't healthy? [D]Really? How do you know what it is like for a person of faith when you don't believe yourself? I can tell you what my experience was living in a trailer 5 years ago, but just because I didn't like it doesn't mean it's bad to live in trailers. [E]I thought there perceptions were different. [F1]Then why aren't you a christian if it works so well, and why don't you doubt that it works?[F2] Do you think there could be the possibility that it could be both? or neither? Edited October 10, 2006 by khalou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer of dreams Posted October 12, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 314 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/08/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 (edited) *sigh* hope lepaca, only hope. This post isn't entitled "argue with lepaca" If you are just going to argue with me I will just start conceding the point to you every chance I get and continue talking about the substance at hand, and Of course its common sense lepaca its been around for 2000 years, also common sense tells us that if I throw a ball it will come back down to earth but aperently when some guy says it hes treated as some brilliant man. Ok back on subject Khalou The moral standard that I get from the Bible is that everyone should be in jail because all fall short. If you want to disagree, then you will have to argue against the entirety of Christianity, not me. If you want to say that you live by a Christian Moral Standard, and I don't, then you will have to argue against Jesus Himself, not me. Honestly a truly moral standard for a christian is a sinful standard Khalou. Noone is perfect not even Jesus. Moraly yes he is upright, but did he have success converting the world to christianity, and turning every hard heart soft? No or there would be none today. The morals the bible teaches us is to love each other as much as you love God, and to love God with everything you've got. The christian standard nowadays seems to be nothing like the religion that Jesus and his desciples spread. My father in law [Who is a pastor] is being frowned on by the church because he wants to bring a foster child into the parcinage(sp?) <thats where the pastor lives. They also don't want her living there because she spent time in Geneva. Do you think Jesus would treat the pastor this way? Judge him like that? Khalou I don't judge you even if I disagree with you. I want to make this clear The doctrine is about love, and understanding. Over all love, and understanding is all we need to learn. If you acomplish these simple things you, and everyone you meet will be happy Edited October 12, 2006 by Observer of dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted October 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Noone is perfect not even Jesus. And where are you planning to go with this??? So now we should listen to you? Of course Jesus was perfect--in every way--He was sinless! He didn't come to immediately change the whole world right then and there. What He did, DID change EVERYTHING! Amen! God chooses and limits Himself to work through people to do that! If mankind did the right thing and accepted Christ as Messiah as he was supposed to, then I suppose the Kingdom of God would already be here! But, alas, mankind are like sheep, wandering here and there, some of them still looking for the Shepherd. Oh, by the way? What is the beef with Geneva??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer of dreams Posted October 17, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 314 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/08/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 17, 2006 It is simple lepaca. You come into everyones forums, complain about everything and do nothing about anything. You must just be here to argue because that's all you ever do you never discuss anything blah blah blah that's all you hear whatever have a nice day. Floating axe I apologize I have a problem with saying stupid things when I am trying to make a point. I shouldn't have said Jesus was not perfect. I had just been making the point to Khalou that if God expected perfection from everyone than we would be made that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khalou Posted October 18, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 251 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2006 *sigh* hope lepaca, only hope. This post isn't entitled "argue with lepaca" If you are just going to argue with me I will just start conceding the point to you every chance I get and continue talking about the substance at hand, and Of course its common sense lepaca its been around for 2000 years, also common sense tells us that if I throw a ball it will come back down to earth but aperently when some guy says it hes treated as some brilliant man. Ok back on subject Khalou The moral standard that I get from the Bible is that everyone should be in jail because all fall short. If you want to disagree, then you will have to argue against the entirety of Christianity, not me. If you want to say that you live by a Christian Moral Standard, and I don't, then you will have to argue against Jesus Himself, not me. Honestly a truly moral standard for a christian is a sinful standard Khalou. Noone is perfect not even Jesus. Moraly yes he is upright, but did he have success converting the world to christianity, and turning every hard heart soft? No or there would be none today. The morals the bible teaches us is to love each other as much as you love God, and to love God with everything you've got. The christian standard nowadays seems to be nothing like the religion that Jesus and his desciples spread. My father in law [Who is a pastor] is being frowned on by the church because he wants to bring a foster child into the parcinage(sp?) <thats where the pastor lives. They also don't want her living there because she spent time in Geneva. Do you think Jesus would treat the pastor this way? Judge him like that? Khalou I don't judge you even if I disagree with you. I want to make this clear The doctrine is about love, and understanding. Over all love, and understanding is all we need to learn. If you acomplish these simple things you, and everyone you meet will be happy Then you agree that the state has no business passing laws based on Christian morality? k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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