Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[exrockstar]

To me, a Christian is one who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and that Holy Spirit does the transforming work "from glory to glory." It is not my doing. By confessing Jesus as Lord, I was promising to submit to the transformation of the Holy Spirit. If I didn't do that, then I do not have the Holy Spirit in me, and I'm not saved -- no matter HOW good or bad I am. If the Holy Spirit IS in me, than any good thing I do is HIM doing it through me. (By the all caps there, I mean to give Him the credit -- not be "shouting".) I just do not believe God is given enough credit for the good things we do.

You are half right in this assessment. Read these verses -

Ephesians 4:21-32 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Look at all the things that I highlighted in red. These are things that we are told that WE must do in changing our lives. People think that after they are saved that God and Christ do all the work in conversion. That is far from the truth. All the things we see in the above verses we are told to do them and we do them with the help of God, Christ, and HS.

Cardcaptor you are striving to get to that point.

that is the goal. to not get involved in sinful living.

do you think the apostles did not struggle? have you read to see how many times these

guys slip and fell? Paul had to discipline the apostles a couple of times.

Even Paul said "Romans 7:19

For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do

[exrockstar]

cardcaptor,

1. "Work out your salvation" is your 21st Century interpretation. "work out" is ebonics. some call it lingo.

so that is your first error.

2. Ephesians 5:3-6 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience

Do YOU SEE what i bolded. it is the word "inheritance."

i know i have told you this many times that it would help you in your studies if you look at the word inheritance vs ENTER.

MANY WILL ENTER BUT NOT MANY WILL INHERIT.

If you think that everyone entering into the kingdom will inherit it then you obviously are missing vital information.

So the Eph. scripture you just posted is directed to those that WILL NOT INHERIT.

YOU on the other hand (if you walk a great walk) will inherit and will rule not only over angels and mortals BUT also those

that entered but DID NOT inherit.

You may want to repeat that over and over.

inherit vs. enter.

IF YOU ARE NOT SAVED you WILL NOT ENTER.

let me show you enter:

MAtt 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;

but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

These folks here were NEVER saved. Ask many people what does it mean if Christ is their savior. If they draw a blank then

you may need to explain what it means and make sure they understand their position.

let me show you those that inherit:

James 2:5

Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

You walk greatly you INHERIT.

Again ENTER and INHERIT are two different things.

You are using INHERIT to dismiss grace and add works to salvation.

You are saved by grace

Eph 2:"8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

people can take one of the two paths.

Person A. faith = salvation = enter

Person B. faith = salvation = enter = "unto good works" = inherit

You have definately killed grace. No matter how i placed these small simple words it is like you feel they

are the same. Do these words not make you feel as though they mean different things?

I am not twisting scripture but asking you to take into consideration that enter and inherit possibly mean different things.

Are you the type of believer that believes that EVERYONE that made it to heaven will INHERIT everything?

Do you believe honestly that?

[exrockstar]

carcaptor said "First, I don't think you understand what "works" are. In the book of James it plainly states that "faith without works is dead".

im going to ask you like i asked someone else.

does an atheist that does not accept Christ nor want to hear anything

that has to do with God have "dead faith?'

its either yes or no.

edited to add: "Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

this has nothing to do with inheriting the kingdom. i dont think it does.

can you show me how this ties into inheriting the kingdom? if im reading this correctly WE as believers inherit the Holy Spirit which will give us salvation.

you can correct me if you'd like but i dont this this ties into inheriting the kingdom.

[Protector]

No!

http://www.unionchurch.com/archive/011401.html

[Rhonda Lou]

[

The Holy Spirit was given to Christians for multiple reasons. He is our comforter, teacher, seal of redemption, etc. We are told this -

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

We grieve the Holy Spirit by keeping sin in our lives that we refuse to repent of. Each time we sin the Holy Spirit does not leave us until we repent. If we lose the Holy Spirit we will not get him back.

If we are working our our salvation by renewing our hearts and minds to no longer desire sin, but fall into sins and repent then we are doing the will of God. If we try to live Christianity while keeping a hold onto certain sins I don't want to repent of or just up and walk away from God and Christianity then I stand a good chance of God taking the Holy Spirit from me.

There is no direct verse saying directly he will take the HS from us. We get that from the fact that the HS is our seal of redemption and that we can see scriptures that say if we keep sin in our lives we will not inherit the Kingdom of God and we need the HS in order to get into heaven

The Holy Spirit doesn't do all the work to transform us. It is up to us to repent of our sins and to renew our minds. The Holy Spirit is given to us to help us get that done. It is up to us to stop stealing, lying, cheating. etc.

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It is up to us to do these things, but the HS was given to us to help do that.

Thanks, Cardcaptor for setting me straight on what exactly it is that you believe. By this point, I believe that our differences are semantics. I believe that if you hold on to sin, and love sin, more than you love God, you are not a Christian. Nobody can love both sin and God -- you can not serve two masters. You believe that if you are a Christian, and love God, but also love sin, and don't repent of it, then the Holy Spirit leaves you -- I believe that if you love sin, the Holy Spirit was never in you. We both believe that loving sin is wrong.

I probably did not make myself clear. I've been in church all my life, and thought I was saved. I DID try and keep the law, and renew my mind, etc, but I still loved sin. I repented thousands of times. But then I was taught something rare in the church today. Repentance means looking away NEVER TO LOOK BACK AGAIN. What I repented of was "self". I repented of my love of sin and my independence, my trying to do in my own power what only God can do in His power. Then, every time that sin came, I told God, in obedience to 2 Corinthians 10 or 11 where it says to take thoughts captive, that I had repented of this, the repentance was real, and I was turning this over to Him. And He cured me of an addiction I'd had for over 30 years. I could not do it; He had to.

The other thing is that I'm a people pleaser, always seeking approval, always wanting to be right, and getting defensive when others tell me I'm wrong. But, if I repent of "self", saying that I want God's agenda and goals, if I say HIS will comes first, if like Christ, I say, "Not my will, but YOURS be done", and I've TRULY repented of the other, meaning not looking back, then when something comes up, I again state that the repentance was real, and I want Him to take it.

I used to be mortified by this: You are the light of the world. A city situated on a hill cannot be hidden. No one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, but rather on a lampstand, and it gives light for all who are in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, so that they may see YOUR good works and give glory to YOUR FATHER in heaven." (Matthew 5:14-16). If I'm doing the good works, why is GOD getting the glory? I want the glory. But, I repented of that -- now I want GOD to get the glory. So, my good works point to HIM. Why? It is because people will see my good works and know that I couldn't do them. I no longer have a problem with God getting everything -- and I don't even know when that happened. That's because I had nothing to do with it. People know me -- they know how I strove for glory, so they know something happened that was outside of myself (in this case, inside myself) -- GOD TRANSFORMED ME.

You mention in your post that you also believe that the Holy Spirit transforms as we renew our minds, and that is why I say that at this point, it is a matter of semantics. Yes, like you, I believe that I am His eyes, ears, legs, arms on earth. We are His ambassadors. All I was saying is that if our focus is on loving God and giving Him the glory, then we won't need to be concerned about keeping the law, or loving sin. Loving sin means not loving God, and that goes against all I stand for. And I simply believe that if one does not love God with all his heart, soul, strength and might, then one is not saved. If one is not saved, then one does not have the Holy Spirit.

I agree also that, in my flesh, I still sin. But, I don't LOVE sin -- I HATE it, and I am constantly asking God's forgiveness for hurting Him and His cause. I'd do NOTHING to hurt my GOD who saved me!! Again, if one loves sin, one is not a Christian. The only test others have or I have as to whether or not I love God is to see if I'm truly trying to glorify and love Him by my works. Those passages you and others refer to are put there as tests of whether or not I love God. If I love those things, I don't love God. The only difference in our interpretations is whether or not this love of sin comes before or after we are "saved". I say if one does those, one is not "of God" or "in Christ". So do you. I just say such a one, even if he or she BELIEVES he or she is saved, and PROFESSES to be saved -- is not saved because a true Christian loves God and hates sin. You say, they slipped from their salvation, and didn't care enough to repent. You agree that one or two sins don't do it, it is continual, willful sinning that speaks of an unrepentant heart. Yes it does -- but true repentance is to change directions and NOT LOOK BACK. That is the lesson I learned, after doing it both ways. I went to church for years -- a main line denomination, a Baptist church and a charismatic church. The whole time, I thought I was saved because I believed that Jesus died and rose for my sins -- but I had not TRULY repented, coming to the end of myself and trusting Him to do what I could not. So, I was not saved. My sister, my entire family tried telling me I was saved, because I had the formula down, but deep down, I never believed it. Now, there is not a doubt in my mind.

And so what I try to do to "renew my mind" is spend a LOT of time in the Bible, and talk with other strong believers, and stay intimate with God. I let Him take care of the rest. Yes, I go where He calls and do what He asks; in that way I am the one doing the work -- but it is HIM doing it trough me, it is HIS word of power which saves, and not my own; it is HIS healing touch that saves and not my own (and I'm not talking miracle here, so much as touching another's emotions or psyche, or whatever.) I am His humble servant, and I trust Him to keep me. He is in me, and will never leave me because He has promised He would stay. If I were to forsake Him, then that repentance would not have been real -- I would have looked back. I truly think we believe the same thing here, more or less. It's just that I depend on God to do what I cannot.

[Guest Greg Davies]

O.K., on the count of three, let's all say "vain disputation". One, two, three.....

Seriously, for arguments sake, lets all assume that cardcaptor and ex and Thaddeus, etall, are all doing the best we can to walk by faith and love one another. Seriously! Jesus is coming soon (I think, I hope), we wouldn"t want to miss it because of the sound of flying scriptures would we?

Actually, He's coming in such a way that everyone is going to notice, but I think we are supposed to be "watching", not arguing. Peace, y'all.

[Thaddaeus]

Rhonda Lou,

Many on here have boiled this down to "You show me your scripture, and I'll show you mine". The truth is that it is ALL in Scriptures, and so the difficulty between us lies in interpretation.

All teaching including false comes from Scripture. The problem protestants face is that they have no basis of authority. Sola Scipture does not make Scripture the authority, but the person making the intepretation. Your point of view, or interpretation is not more nor less weighty than any other person doing the very same thing. It is one person's opinion against another which makes all views of equal weight.

I will and do concede that you are interpreting the Scripture to the best of your ability, and I am interpreting Scripture to the best of my ability -- and we are both attempting to be accurate in the interpretation. You have explained your position extremely well, and I do appreciate that. I believe our fundamental difference in interpretation lies here, quoting from you:

I am not interpreting at the best of my ability but I am trying to understand it to the best of my abilty with the leading of the Holy Spirit However, I don't need to interpret. The Gospel was given once, fully, completely by the Apostles to the first century Christians. They and all following generations have handed down that fath through the preservation of the Holy Spirit as He said He would. The Bible clearly states that prophecy or revelation which is prophecy is not given to individuals, nor for private interpretation.

Why would anyone need to interpret if it has already been fully given. If a mathematician told you 2000 years ago that 2+2= 4 and that it always will, why would you need to attempt to formulate the theory that proves that point.

The Holy Spirit has promised to help you to understand the Gospel that was once given. No single person in 2000 years has ever given new revelation relative to the Gospel. Many have tried and fomulated all kinds of throughts and theories but all have been declared false. False because it was not from the beginning and opposed the accepted belief and practice.

I thank you for your kind words that I have presented my view well, but my view has been established a long time ago by the Apostles and has been clarified over time by faithful stewards of that deposit of Truth. It has been believed and practiced for a very long time. It is my obligation to proclaim that Word. It is commanded by all believers to proclaim His Word, not my word ,nor my interpretation of a partial Gospel that was written or any other individuals interpretation.

Being a true Berean is not establishing your own interpretation then checking if it aligns with the Truth of the Ages. It is taking your understanding and making sure it aligns with what has always been taught. If it does not, then more study is needed to make sure it does align with the universal Gospel of Christ.

OK, if I am understanding you correctly, what you mean is that God transforms believers that that if a believer decides against that transformation, committing the sins listed in Ephesians 3:3-6), then the Holy Spirit leaves you until you repent, ask forgiveness, and come back into the fold, at which time, the Holy Spirit once again comes into you until the next time you do something wrong.

First, it is not just the sins of Eph 3 but all sins, any sins. Sin is sin.

Next, it is not that one leaves the fold with one sin, or even many. I commit many sins each day, some knowingly, many more out of habit and some unknowingly. But I need to make sure that I confess those sins, am contrite about them. It is not taking God for granted, that I can simply request forgiveness then go right back to doing the same things. But it is a struggle, a work, an effort, with the Holy Spirit to resist temptations, sins of kinds so that I am staying on the narrow path. I need to make sure that I am on the path and going forward.

But one can, leave the path or forsake the forward motion of your salvation journey. It is a journey one is on, until we arrive at the end of our lives that, if we were faithful, we shall inherit the promise of eternal life WITH CHRIST.

If one is not struggling with sin, then one should doubt that one is being saved. That person may have hardened his heart, become calloused to sin. That is a real danger that we do not even recognize sin.

If List I is true of a person and List II is false, there is cause to question the reliability of one's profession of faith. Yet if List II is true, then the top list will be also.

That is the definition of being saved THROUGH FAITH. Faith, understanding, knowledge, along with works, being and doing is what the journey of faith is all about. You cannot do it alone and you cannot do with only one of the above.

You gave an excellent statement of your faith and I commend you on that. But, I believe, I stated this before, this discussion may not apply to you or to those participating in this thread. But the understanding is important as we do live how we believe. The Bible is not giving idle words, nor just putting words on paper to fill some pages to make it look more like a substantial book. The reality is that believers fall. Some stumble and get up, but many never do, or never try because they found the journey to difficult.

Edited August 22, 2007 by Thaddaeus

[Thaddaeus]

exrockstar,

what post number is his explanation?

I checked back 12 pages or so and did not find it. It was only about a week ago that Cardcaptor made the explanation.

But, I have given one very similiar to Rhonda Lou in my last post to her just above this one. the third and fourth paragraphs from the bottom, Page 177, post #1766.

[Rhonda Lou]

Rhonda Lou,

I will and do concede that you are interpreting the Scripture to the best of your ability, and I am interpreting Scripture to the best of my ability -- and we are both attempting to be accurate in the interpretation. You have explained your position extremely well, and I do appreciate that. I believe our fundamental difference in interpretation lies here, quoting from you:

I am not interpreting at the best of my ability but I am trying to understand it to the best of my abilty with the leading of the Holy Spirit However, I don't need to interpret. The Gospel was given once, fully, completely by the Apostles to the first century Christians. They and all following generations have handed down that fath through the preservation of the Holy Spirit as He said He would. The Bible clearly states that prophecy or revelation which is prophecy is not given to individuals, nor for private interpretation.

Why would anyone need to interpret if it has already been fully given. If a mathematician told you 2000 years ago that 2+2= 4 and that it always will, why would you need to attempt to formulate the theory that proves that point.

The Holy Spirit has promised to help you to understand the Gospel that was once given. No single person in 2000 years has ever given new revelation relative to the Gospel. Many have tried and fomulated all kinds of throughts and theories but all have been declared false. False because it was not from the beginning and opposed the accepted belief and practice.

Thaddeus,

I apologize for my miscommunication. An example of what I meant was this:

13 In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation;) in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise, 14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14), which says that the Holy Spirit is a seal guaranteeing our redemption. This means once saved, always saved. Those opposed to once saved always saved say, what about this verse?

4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery (Hebrews 6:4-6).

How is it that the Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing a future redemption AND that those who have "tasted also the heavenly gifts" could lose the very salvation promised in Ephesians 1:13-14? Since we both believe that the Scriptures are ALL inspired, and that there are no contradictions in them, how do these "fit together"? For the answers to that, people go to other Scriptures and look at what the original Greek and Hebrew terms mean. All of those in this forum have done that, and have drawn differing conclusions. Some, like me, believe that those who profess Christianity, and truly believe they are saved, may have repented of "original sin" in the generic sense (it is not difficult to agree with God that ALL are sinners), but not in the personal sense, "I -- me, myself and I have sinned, and I know that I can never change myself, I need YOU to do it). Nobody who says that, "I agree that all sin, You saved me,, so I can sin that grace may abound" is saved because to be saved means that "me, myself and I am hopeless without God." (Repentance is not taught enough as part of salvation, so many who believe they've been saved have actually never repented). These people have "tasted" of the Holy Spirit because they've been to church all of their lives, maybe, have taken the Eucherist, or Holy Communion, have even been baptized, carry out good works kidy as those whom Jesus said He didn't know in the Sermon on the Mount -- they have access to the truth, but have never incorporated the entire truth into their being and allowed God to transform them.

Others say that "tasted the Holy Spirit" means that the person HAS become a Christian, believing the Romans Road -- that all sin, the wages of sin is death, Christ died for your sins, and if you accept that you are saved, but that if you do not heed warnings like the one in Hebrews 5, then you will lose the seal of the Holy Spirit, and according to Hebrews 10, you will never be able to receive the Holy Spirit back once He leaves you. Both are making extremely honest attempts to understand the Scriptures.

My point in saying that "you show me your Scriptures and I'll show you mine" is that in the last 177 plus pages, both camps of Scriptures have been quoted by many several times over, so there is nothing to be gained by repeating them yet again. People are at an impasse when it comes to those Scriptures. It is true that all of the Scriptures in both camps are truly in the Bible, whether it is the Catholic Bible or the Protestant Bible. This means that there is a place for all of those Scriptures. I have a friend who refuses to believe Ephesians 2:8-9 because, in his mind, it doesn't track with James 2:26, and as he believes James 2:26, he refuses to believe in Ephesians 2:8-9. Martin Luther believed the book of James should not be in the Bible because it said "Faith without works is dead" which goes against Ephesians 2:8-9. Both passages are in both the Catholic and the Protestant Bibles. The Holy Spirit wants both there. Since both "camps" have stated their Scriptural back-up for their interpretations, and there is an impasse, that must mean that we need to look elsewhere in Scripture, to find a resolution.

The "elsewhere" that I looked at was the heart, the motivation, that works are an outpouring of what is in the heart. The Scriptures that I used and also in both the Catholic and Protestant versions. I did not take them out of context. God looks at the heart -- always has. David is a man after God's heart. If there has been true faith and true repentance in the heart, and the person now lives to glorify God, love God more, and in God's power, love others more, there has been a change of heart. God says of such a person:

26 And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

10 For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind, and in their heart will I write them: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least to the greatest of them: 12 Because I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more. (Hebrews 8:10-12)

God does this, not only to save us, but to keep us saved. If we have truly repented, and turned to God for salvation, not only for heaven, but also for victory over sin, then God will put HIS heart and spirit within us. This is what I mean by once saved, always saved. God does the work through me IF I have truly repented and put my trust in Him. If I have just said, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You died and rose for my sins; thank you for doing that, because I know You have forgiven the sin I'm about to commit," such a one has missed the point of salvation altogether, has never repented of sin and the love of sinning, and even if that person goes to church every single week, and commits all kinds of good works along with their sins, and even if they confess those sins, whether to a priest or to God ("confession" meaning, agreeing with God that one sins) without ever repenting or turning away, then such a person has never truly been saved and God will state on Judgement Day, "I never knew you; depart from me, you sinner."

If one HAS repented of self, and is given that new heart, and the law is written on their heart, you and other are correct -- we are still in our flesh, and as such, still sin, even with the new heart. However, the new heart in us is not HAPPY about the sin -- we do not LOVE sin -- we HATE sin. Our strongest desire is to glorify God, and the fact that we didn't hurts us deeply. Yes, we confess AND repent of that sin, and turn back to God in faith. I've never denied that, and the Scriptures are clear on that fact -- we must confess our sins and ask forgiveness. I'm just saying a true Christian would do that; a false Christian would not. Therefore, I go back to what I said many, many pages ago, the root question for me is not once saved, always saved, it is "Are you saved to begin with?" The Bible is clear on what true salvation is, and that is the chart that I shared with you yesterday.

I hope that this clears up the miscommunication. I'm not speaking of interpreting Scriptures "my way", I'm just saying all true Christians are making an honest attempt to see how all of these varied Scriptures "fit together" without contradicting each other. Since the OSAS scriptures have been quoted, and the anti-OSAS scriptures have been quoted, and led to an impasse, the answer must be found elsewhere in Scriptures. I believe that "elsewhere" happens to be the motivation of the heart, the root of all actions or works.

[exrockstar]

That is the definition of being saved THROUGH FAITH. Faith, understanding, knowledge, along with works, being and doing is what the journey of faith is all about. You cannot do it alone and you cannot do with only one of the above.

i thought faith was :Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

the journey that you talk about is the spritual walk Paul addresses.

besides youre explaining a definition with itself. you see how you explain "faith" and use faith in its own definition?

as for cardcaptor look at this scripture:

Heb 6:10For