Rhonda Lou

The Bible says, "But know this, that in the last days, perilous times will come. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, dispisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. (2 Timothy 3:1-5a) This is speaking of people who profess to be Christians. The church has tried to make it easy to be a Christian. Accepting Jesus as Savior for heaven, without a desire to be free from sin in this world, has left people confused. The Holy Spirit gives us the desire to be free, and the power to be free. We still sin, but true Christians don't practice sin to try to improve their ability to sin. They feel mortified when they sin because their greatest desire is to become more Chris-like, and less fleshly. Having said that, only God knows somebody else's heart. Only he knows if they are trying and desiring to be better, and put themselves under the control of the Spirit (but are weak), or if they just don't care (and may not be truly saved), or what. God judges the heart. We just should be concerned that our own heart be as pure through living righteously and confessing and repenting when we err -- and we should present the hope of Jesus to others, to let the Holy Spirit work on their lives. The rest is God's department.

Tyler 22, Why do you think shyness and fear hardens your heart? How do you think the Holy Spirit used to talk to you? If you are as worried about this as you sound, then I don't believe you have hardened your heart beyond His ability to help!! Have you ever received Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Want to live for Him? Want to be changed from the sinful person we all are before Christ? Why do you feel dead to Him now, if you used to feel alive to Him? I will pray for you, but I can't speak to your question without information. Rhonda

In a sense, we can. The Bible says: "But as many as RECEIVED HIM [/b](human responsibility), to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who BELIEVE in His Name [/b](again, human responsibility): who were born, not of blood, nor of the WILL OF THE FLESH, nor of the WILL OF MAN, but of GOD" (God's choosing) (John 1:12-13) "And as many as had been APPOINTED tp eternal life [/b](God choosing) believed" (human responsibility) (Acts 13:48b) All of the verses in the Bible which state that God chooses (predestination) are all inspired by God and in the Bible. All of the verses in the Bible which say that man must choose (free will, which I call human responsibility) are all inspired and are in the Bible. Therefore, all verses in BOTH camps are the inspired word of God. They are not to be pitted against each other -- they are to be believed as the inspired word of God. I agree that there are no contradictions in the Bible. Therefore, how are they to be understood? The Bible itself does not say, it just says that they are to be believed. To get my own mind around it (until I get to heaven to ask God), I see them as two perspectives: God's view of things, and man's view of things. God chooses, yet we believe. People say that if this is the case, then the choice is not really a choice. I disagree. I make the choice the same as I make any other choice: with the facts at hand, by testing the Bible and seeing that it is true, and by forming my own beliefs. The thing is that God's view is different than my view, and in His view, i have already been chosen and the Holy Spirit is working in the background to make it a certainty. I'll never know which turns in the road, so to speak, He kept me from, and which people He put or didn't put into my life to accomplish His will. All I know is that with the facts I have, and by testing the Bible and seeing that it is true, and by forming my own beliefs, and coming to the end of myself, I believed. Then, as I studied the Bible more, I saw that He chose me before the foundation of the earth. I'm glad He did so -- I'm so rebellious and independent that I'm glad He took matters into his own hands behind the scenes to make sure I chose Him. But looking at it as though it is from God's perspective, and from my own perspective is just my way of seeing things. The Bible does not say why God's will and human responsibility both exist -- it just says that they do. I guess it is the same as God fighting our battles for us, yet asking us to fight with all our might. It is why we are not saved by good works, nor can good works keep us saved -- it is all by faith, and any Calvinist will not denounce the importance of faith -- yet at the same time, if there is no "good work" fruit born in our lives, we were never truly saved. God provides a balance in every aspect of doctrine in the Bible. So, if the "perspective" thing does not strike a chord, maybe "balance" is better -- but NOT "contradiction" and NOT "one or the other". The Bible clearly teaches both, as by now on this thread, the "Calvinists" and the "Armenians" have both pointed out their favorite Scriptures either way. I agree that contradictions cannot exist in reality. So we should proably not call them contradictions. The law of non-contradiction says that truth A cannot be A and not A at the same time, in the same sense and in the same relationship. So we cannot say that God is completely soveriegn and not sovereign or that humanity has free choice but limited choice. We cannot define human freedom in a way that contradicts divine soveriegnty and vice verse. Sciripture states 2 things clearly: 1. That God is completely sovereign over all things including the process and extent of salvation 2. That human beings make real choices for which God holds them accountab le and that have real consequences. The scriptures never explicitly explain how these truths intersect (although scripture hints at it). So, we must be careful in how we state these truths and how we attempt to resolve them. The classic example is in Acts: Men of Israel, listen to these words: This Jesus the Nazarene was a man pointed out to you by God with miracles, wonders, and signs that God did among you through Him, just as you yourselves know.Though He was delivered up according to God's determined plan and foreknowledge, you used lawless people to nail Him to a cross and kill Him.] Acts

In a sense, we can. The Bible says: "But as many as RECEIVED HIM [/b](human responsibility), to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who BELIEVE in His Name [/b](again, human responsibility): who were born, not of blood, nor of the WILL OF THE FLESH, nor of the WILL OF MAN, but of GOD" (God's choosing) (John 1:12-13) "And as many as had been APPOINTED tp eternal life [/b](God choosing) believed" (human responsibility) (Acts 13:48b) All of the verses in the Bible which state that God chooses (predestination) are all inspired by God and in the Bible. All of the verses in the Bible which say that man must choose (free will, which I call human responsibility) are all inspired and are in the Bible. Therefore, all verses in BOTH camps are the inspired word of God. They are not to be pitted against each other -- they are to be believed as the inspired word of God. I agree that there are no contradictions in the Bible. Therefore, how are they to be understood? The Bible itself does not say, it just says that they are to be believed. To get my own mind around it (until I get to heaven to ask God), I see them as two perspectives: God's view of things, and man's view of things. God chooses, yet we believe. People say that if this is the case, then the choice is not really a choice. I disagree. I make the choice the same as I make any other choice: with the facts at hand, by testing the Bible and seeing that it is true, and by forming my own beliefs. The thing is that God's view is different than my view, and in His view, i have already been chosen and the Holy Spirit is working in the background to make it a certainty. I'll never know which turns in the road, so to speak, He kept me from, and which people He put or didn't put into my life to accomplish His will. All I know is that with the facts I have, and by testing the Bible and seeing that it is true, and by forming my own beliefs, and coming to the end of myself, I believed. Then, as I studied the Bible more, I saw that He chose me before the foundation of the earth. I'm glad He did so -- I'm so rebellious and independent that I'm glad He took matters into his own hands behind the scenes to make sure I chose Him. But looking at it as though it is from God's perspective, and from my own perspective is just my way of seeing things. The Bible does not say why God's will and human responsibility both exist -- it just says that they do. I guess it is the same as God fighting our battles for us, yet asking us to fight with all our might. It is why we are not saved by good works, nor can good works keep us saved -- it is all by faith, and any Calvinist will not denounce the importance of faith -- yet at the same time, if there is no "good work" fruit born in our lives, we were never truly saved. God provides a balance in every aspect of doctrine in the Bible. So, if the "perspective" thing does not strike a chord, maybe "balance" is better -- but NOT "contradiction" and NOT "one or the other". The Bible clearly teaches both, as by now on this thread, the "Calvinists" and the "Armenians" have both pointed out their favorite Scriptures either way.

I wondered what "I have been through so much" and "I'm tired beyond words" meant. Thank you for explaining about your father and mother. I will pray for you. It sounds like this latest crisis with your father is just the last in a string of things which have happened for you. We all get discouraged from time to time. I've been through crises of my own making many times, and those outside my control. I've even lost a mother, but I was not as close to her as you are to your father. I've lost loved ones that I am close to, took comfort in the fact that I will see them again, but it does leave a hole in your life. It might help you now to enjoy the time you have left with your father. At the same time, the Bible says that if we delight in the Lord, He will give us the desires of our hearts (Psalm 37:4-6). Right now, your desire is to be with your father, but maybe if you delight yourself in the Lord, God will change that desire and meet it when the time comes for your father to leave you. That sounds easier said than done, particularly when you are so discouraged now (as I have been in the past), so I think the best response at this time is for me to simply pray for you. Rhonda

No, I don't think you are wrong. I feel that way also. God has greatly blessed me. We are not a friend to Israel any longer, and we as a nation are suffering for it. It makes me want Him to come. There are still individuals who need to be saved, however. I don't want to sit back and simply wait for Him to come -- though I DO want Him to come. Paul told those in Thessolonica who were just sitting around and waiting for the Rapture that they should be working as they waited.(2 Thessalonians 3:11-12) So, we are to work while we wait. However, we should be eagerly waiting for our final glorification and the return of Jesus: "For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope: for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we EAGERLY wait for it with perseverance." (Romans 8:22-25) So, you are not wrong for feeling the way you do.

Rhonda Lou I want to thank you for all what you have written in response to me. I agree that it has taken very much time. Looking back it was more time than I wanted to spend on this. Yet if it was not for you it would have seemed like talking to the wall. I got to see how the other side thinks. I got to see which passages they like to use. I have discovered new insight into some passages while trying to explain my position. And at times I searched the internet to see how other like minded people explained certain passages. Through that I also have learned new things. I do plan to at some point write down all my beliefs in a blog as well. I appreciate the time you did spend on debating me. I respect your beliefs and have no intention on trying to change them. Thank you. I wish you God's blessing in the new year. rca rca, Thank you for your gracious reply. I wish you well, and God's peace. Rhonda

I have not responded for awhile because I was very busy with Christmas preparations. I sense that you gasp when I comment on what you have said because of all the time it has taken you to repond. You strongly suggest that I stop writing. I, too would also like to move on. Having said that I will quote your last sentence in the above quote and apply it to myself. I just wanted to respond to the new information about the Prodigal Son and 1 Corinthians 3. Actually I won't even respond to your 1 Corinthians 3 writing. It is too far removed from our current topic. In post 968 Rhonda Lou says: (Bold is mine for emphasis) <<I agree with you that God leaves a witness for everybody in the world. The true life comes into the world. Romans 1:19-20 makes it clear that God provided creation as a witness. Romans 2:15 mentions that those who do not know God are still able to follow a conscience, and the conscience is a witness of God to the world. Acts 14:17 says that God gives rain, harvest, and filled our hearts with food and gladness. We are told that nobody will be without excuse at the judgment because everybody had facts. The Bible clearly says that, and I agree with you on all of those points. The problem is, as I refer you back to other passages, that men do not seek God, and all of those evidences are foolishness to those who are perishing and they CAN NOT understand them, because God has not drawn them, at least not yet. One need only read as far as the unbelievers who access this site, to see how they refuse to believe in creation -- or refuse to believe in the conscience, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrayr -- not because they are stupid, but because they are spiritually blind, and God has not taken off their blinders. God first has to draw. God first has to open their eyes enough to be able to see. And He does not do that for everybody in the world, though we are never to determine who is or is not among God's chosen people.>> Then in post 995 you say regarding the prodigal son: I did not plainly state this as I should have done, but my point is this is not an "unbeliever" it is someone who already has facts. At first you say that all the world has the facts of God but that alone does not make them able to choose God let alone be saved. Then you say that the prodigal son was a believer because he had all the facts. This is a contradiction. Why is the prodigal son special? Even though it says that he was dead you claim that he is a believer because he had all the facts while in a previous post you say that all the world gets the facts of God. Also the parable of the prodigal son is in a series of parables that all have a related theme. Something or someone is lost and then found. This is followed by a celebration. The other two add that there will be joy in heaven over one sinner who repents (Luke 15:7,10). When in Luke 15:24,32 it says that the son was dead and now is alive, it also says that he was lost and now is found. This connects it with the previous 2 parables where something or someone was lost and now is found. It seems to me as you are not reading these parables from a neutral position. You have a prime datum to defend and the passage must be interpreted to fit your prime datum. A neutral meaning would be that the prodigal son was spiritually dead and now was alive again. The context of these 3 parables is that Jesus was eating with sinners and the Pharisees were grumbling about this (Luke 15:1-3). In the boxed part of your quote you said "the story of the Prodigal Son is a story with a point. Jesus was speaking it to Jewish leaders. Their understanding was that a son which erred that wrongly would be "dead" to the father... What Jesus was telling the Jewish leaders is that the Father could forgive the one who wronged him; the moral being that they should do the same." While what you said may be true, the main reason for Jesus saying these 3 parable is because the Jewish leaders were grumbling over the fact that Jesus was eating with sinners. Also Jesus was attacking the Pharisees with this last parable. The Pharisees were grumbling over the fact that Jesus was receiving sinners and eating with them. Jesus was like the shepherd and the woman actively looking for what was lost. By receiving the sinners the way they are, Jesus was winning them over to believe on Him. This was a reason to celebrate like all the parables were mentioning that. The Pharisees were like the elder brother claiming that they were the righteous ones and these sinners deserve nothing and should receive nothing from the father (Luke 15:29-30). The parable was meant to condemn the Pharisees for their self righteous attitudes and for the fact that the Pharisees did not rejoice when sinners were found or became alive spiritually. This was not the first time that the Pharisees grumbled over sinners being accepted by Jesus. Matthew 9:10-13 is another incident that is recorded in all 3 synoptic gospels. For the Pharisees the tax collectors and prostitutes were the bottom of the earth, the most despised people there were. Jesus said another parable directed to the Pharisees in Matthew 21:28-32, the parable of the 2 sons. Jesus told the Pharisees that tax collectors and prostitutes will enter the kingdom of God before they do. Such a statement angered the Pharisees greatly. Then Jesus tells 2 more parables directed against the Pharisees in Matthew 21:33-22:14. The last one also described the salvation process. In that parable (Matthew 22:1-14) there is no room for God choosing first theology. In that parable the ones that were called at first did not come to the wedding feast. Not all that God calls or invites choose to accept God's call. Many are called, few are chosen (Matthew 22:14). Both the shepherd (Luke 15:4-7) and the woman (Luke 15:8-10) went looking for what was lost in order to find it. When they found it, they rejoiced greatly. In the same way Jesus was dining with these sinners in the hope that they would respond with repentance. This was Revelation 3:20 literally in action. Jesus and/or God the Father is drawing us. That is God's part. It is up to us to repent and come to faith. That is our part. You like to quote John 6:44. In Post 985 you even claim that Jesus is speaking about predestination (your interpretation of it) in this verse. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. Notice what this verse does not say. This verse does not say whether the Father draws everyone in the world or only a select. And it also does not say if all of those that are drawn by the Father actually come to Jesus. It says that only those that the Father draws can come to Jesus. It does not say that they will come to Jesus. John 6:44 cannot be read independently of John 6:45. John 6:45 begins with "It is written ...". That means that what was just said is backed up or proved by another Scripture. In 6:45 it says that all will be taught by God. I would say that being taught by God is the same as being drawn by the Father. 6:45 goes on by saying that those who have heard and learnt from the Father come to Jesus. So according to this, all are drawn but only some respond and come to Jesus. Regarding that the drawing is universal is further proved by John 12:32. "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself." All are drawn but only some come. John 6:45 says that all are taught by God. However only those who hear and learn from the Father come to Jesus. That is why Jesus told the Pharisees to "go and learn what this means 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice' (Matthew 9:13)". In John 8:43,47 it says "Why do you not understand what I (Jesus) say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word ... Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear them is that you are not of God. God's word has come out to all the world. That is God's part. It is up to us to respond by hearing and learning from the word. Matthew 22:14 says "Many are called, but few are chosen". This is in reference to the parable of the Wedding feast (Matthew 22:1-14). In the boxed quote you also say "So, when I state that we must "cooperate" with God, what I mean is that if we are chosen, sooner or later we will accept, it might as well be when we are invited." In the parable many were invited that did not come to the feast and they were destroyed (22:7). One came to the feast but was not wearing wedding garments. He was cast into outer darkness (22:11-13). According to this parable (which began with "The kingdom of heaven is like...") not responding to the invitation resulted in severe punishment (hell). Many (the world) are called but few are chosen (chosen because of their response to Jesus not according to your definition of predestination). So I would say responding positively (obediently) to God's call (He calls all not just some) is not an option to put it off as long as you like. There are many that would like a "get out of hell card" and live to please themselves. Those are not the people that God will choose to save. In your boxed quote you say "An unbeliever does not have the option for belief unless God draws and calls Him, believers have both the dead "flesh" and the Holy Spirit. We are told to live by the Spirit." So according to this believers have an option. They could choose to live their entire life in the flesh. They could live like unbelievers and still be saved. The Bible talks about setting your mind on the flesh or according to the Spirit (Romans 8:5-8). Reading this at face value, setting your mind is what we do, not what God does for us. God does not set anybody's mind on anything. This is what we do. It is like a TV with 2 channels. One is the flesh or Satan's channel. The other is the Holy Spirit channel. We have a choice on what channel we put our mind on. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace (Romans 8:6). Regarding the same above boxed quote, while believers have the Holy Spirit inside of them, unbelievers have the Holy Spirit operating in their lives as well. The Holy Spirit is convicting them (John 16:8). So the Holy Spirit has a role in an unbeliever's life as well as in a believer's life. Jesus stands on the door and knocks (Rev. 3:20) In the boxed quote you say "that everything in the Bible should be accepted on face value, so that it is NOT either/or, but "both". I quoted Scripture for both, denying neither" I can say the same thing as well. Some of the passages you say you read at face value does not seem like face value to me. And there are passages I say that I read at face value, you do not agree with me that I am reading them at face value. I also believe that our beliefs have to be supported by all Scripture, not just some. I try not to have any paradoxes. If you allow them too freely you can easily start a cult. Every passage that seems to support God not man choosing I can read and interpret that man does have free choice. rca, I thank you for your response. I just want to clear one thing up. I never meant that you should not write anymore, just that my mind is not goting to change, and your mind is not going to change, so my spending hourse writing you when I could be responding to other questions, or trying to respond to unbelievers, or writing inmate letters, or whatever seems a waste of time for me. I would never want to tell another person what they can and cannot do. On the issue of the Prodigal Son, I've stated what I believed. I read in your last paragraph that you do not believe in paradoxes in the Bible. Although I do not understand how Jesus can be fully God and fully Man while on earth, I believe the Bible teaches that He is. Although I do not understand how Jesus can be in heaven sitting at the right hand of God, and making intercession for us, and yet be in us (Romans 8:34; John 14:23; Colossians 1:27), and yet He is. I explained the point of the parable of the Prodigal Son as I saw it. I also pointed out all of the other verses which state that those dead in their sins don't seek God, and must therefore be saved by God. A look over all that I have written indicates that I totally believe in predestination; and that I totally believe in free will. I simply do not believe that our will is taken into account when God chooses us, but I have repeatedly stated that it is necessary that we repent and believe. I was simply stating that as there was nothing more I could add, I'd like to leave the conversation, but you are welcome to continue writing.

rca, I read this a week ago, but birthdays and other things have kept me from responding to both of your posts. I realize that there are time constraints for both of us, but that others may read this. It is just that nobody else seems to be reading it right now, we are both Christians, and I have told you what I believe and why, and you have told me what you believe and why. Since we both agree that faith comes by hearing, I feel like time would be better spent trying to spread the gospel to those who haven't heard it, in case God opens their hearts to respond to it. I will admit that I haven't done any of that reaching out, however -- I have been too caught up in other things. But that is the ideal. However, I will respond to your points about the Prodigal Son. At the outset, I will say that I believe that those who are truly saved, who have Christ in them, their hope of glory (Colossians 1:27) can not lose their salvation. You are correct in stating that this is a whole other topic, and there is a thread here in the Inner Court called "Can salvation be lost?" or something like that. I have posts on there, though it has been some time since I wrote anything there, so if you are interested, you'd have to really look through the whole thread. You are correct in that I should not have introduced that topic here. OK, for your other points. In response to your view that the Prodigal Son was dead, but is alive, my point was this: the story of the Prodigal Son is a story with a point. Jesus was speaking it to Jewish leaders. Their understanding was that a son which erred that wrongly would be "dead" to the father. A case in point: In "Fiddler on the Roof", Reptivia (sp) tore his clothes with the third daughter. What he was saying is, "You are dead to me." The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day would understand this concept from their law. Yes, while the father represents God -- the father is NOT God, he is a human father operating under human concepts. What Jesus was telling the Jewish leaders is that the Father could forgive the one who wronged him; the moral being that they should do the same. A parable, as I said, is a story with a point, and only the point is to be taken literally -- in this case the father forgives the son. I stated that the son was considered "dead" to his moral compass, yet was still his father's son -- and had not lost that status, to point out that in this case, the son was part of the "family" having known the Father, the rules of the house, etc. I did not plainly state this as I should have done, but my point is this is not an "unbeliever" it is somebody who already has facts. Unbelievers are not remotely alive spiritually as these Scriptures I quoted elsewhere state:(Genesis 8:21; Jeremiah 17:9; John 2:24-25; Ephesians 2:1-2; 5; 5:5-8; Colossians 1:21-22; 2:13; Romans 3:11-12; 23; 6:25; 1 Corinthians 2:16; and Romans 8:6-7). As for 1 Corinthians 3, verses 1-5 does speak about carnal believers sticking to one or another. Paul says in verse 6 that I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase, again, there speaking of teachers. But in verse 9, Paul says, "For we (teachers) are labourers together with God; YE ARE God's husbandry, ye are God's building. (here "Ye" becomes all believers). In verse 10, Paul says that he laid the right foundation, another built on it, but then he continues: "But let EVERY MAN take heed how he buildeth thereupon." In verse 11, he says the foundation is Christ. In verse 12, he says, "Now if any man build upon this foundation." and then in verse 13, he says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest." "Every man" refers to EVERY MAN, not just teachers. Every person's works will be judged. Bad, or non-productive works will be destroyed as hay, wood or stubble are burned in fire, but the person himself or herself will be saved, if he/she is a Christian. That is how I understand this passage. The final point brought out is that I admit that we must cooperate with God. I got a little confused when you said that this makes God less than sovereign as He waits for us to cooperate with Him. I have stated all along that I believe in both predestination and free will. I believe that in salvation, God draws the chosen one by opening his/her ("his" is just easier to say from now on) mind and heart to receive the truth, then puts at least one person or pamphlet or Bible or whatever in the hands of the ones God has opened hearts to receive the gospel -- so that these ones may HEAR the gospel. God gives them the belief. God gives them the repentance. At the right time, God works through others to extend an invitation, one He knows they will accept and has caused them to accept. He never holds his breath waiting to see what we will do. However, the choice is not just an illusion. The Bible teaches both God's actions in our lives -- and our choice. I have said all along that we much choose God as the final step of salvation -- but that our choice does NOT predetermine God's actions. He acts solely for His own reasons and for His own glory. I have stated that in human terms, this does not make sense, but the Bible clearly teaches it -- that everything in the Bible should be accepted on face value, so that it is NOT either/or, but "both". I quoted Scriptures for both, denying neither. So, when I state that we must "cooperate" with God, what I mean is that if we are chosen, sooner or later we will accept, it might as well be when we are invited. When God's will is revealed to a believer, we can choose to say yes or no. God's will WILL be done, and He WILL finish the work He begins in us -- but it goes MUCH FASTER if we are obedient right up front. An unbeliever does not have the option for belief unless God draws and calls Him, believers have both the dead "flesh" and the Holy Spirit. We are told to live by the Spirit. Again, however, I caution: we do not know who has been chosen and who has not been saved. We are told to spread the gospel to all, and to leave the results with God. The Bible does not indicate that living in the reality of both predestination and free will leads to fatalism and standing back to see what God will do, but every person who believed in predestination suffered mightily for spreading the gospel. They did not sit back and wait for God. Truly saved people would not do that. In the book of Esther, Haman made a deal with the king to kill all the Jews. Esther was one. Mordecai, her uncle, wanted her to speak to the king. In Esther 4:11, she reminded Mordecai's spokesman, Hathach that if anybody spoke to the king when the king did not ask them to speak, they would die, so she was scared to speak to the king. Mordecai's response, through Hathach, was "Do not think in your heart that you will escape in the king's palace any more than all the other Jews. For if you remain completely silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father's house will perish. Yet who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?" (Esther 4:11, ff) In essence he was saying that God will do His will -- but don't you DARE "sit back" and wait for it, especially if God is waiting for you to be the instrument He uses to accomplish His will." God works through people and any true Christian will "cooperate" with God, doing what God wants them to do. God can accomplish His will without us, but He chooses to use us: those works He prepared beforehand that we might walk in them. I believe that yet again, we are going in circles. Open forum or not, I've stated my position. If another wishes to agree or disagree with you, then they have the floor. I've said all I can say, and repeated myself a lot. I just wanted to respond to the new information about the Prodigal Son and 1 Corinthians 3.

rca, It just dawned on me that I did not speak to your final passage of Hebrews 3, about the Jews not entering God's rest. I sort of started, by stating that in the Old Testament, they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. They had God's presence, and saw Him in action, but when He was not visible at the moment, oftentimes they began to complain and doubt. Believers have the Holy Spirit inside them all the time, and that does not occur now. In the case of Hebrews 3, this is referencing people from the Old Testament that had the presence of God, yet chose not to believe in Him. He said, "As I swore in My wrath; they shall not enter My rest." (v. 11) This indicates that they never truly believed in their hearts, and were never saved. The people the author of Hebrews was speaking to were in the same boat -- giving intellectual assent to God, but in danger of not believing Him in their hearts. Christians Have entered God's rest. Jesus says that we are to come to Him, enter His rest, take His yoke upon us, and let Him give us rest. (Matthew 11:28-30) Those depending on the Holy Spirit's power for victory, and having faith in God from their hearts -- they have entered God's rest. As for the hardened hearts, I believe that I have addressed this before in stating that the Bible teaches both that God hardens hearts, and that our hearts are hardened by our choices. OK, now, I think I've covered everything. God's peace to you. Rhonda

rca, One final post. It is taking way too much time from other ministerial efforts, and I'm beginning to feel childishly stubborn. I pray, as ever, that God writes this through me, and that it is lovingly gentle. From reading your post, I believe the new things you've brought up are a belief that the Prodigal Son parable speaks to free will over God's sovereignty, and that 2:14 is speaking about new believers or babes since Paul is speaking to Christian infants in 1 Corinthians 3:1. THE PRODIGAL SON In Luke 15, Jesus tells the parable of the Prodigal Son to Pharisees and Scribes, who were being snobbish for keeping the law. A parable is a story from one's own experience meant to make a moral point. They could relate to a human father with two sons, the eldest being obedient to the law, but sinful in his heart in that he is unable to forgive the younger, unlawful son, who has repented. The human father forgave the sinful son. That is the context. Now, about this story, I believe that you are thinking that the youngest son lost his salvation. He did lose his inheritance, or reward in the family, but he remained the human father's son in good and evil times. I liken this moral or spiritual principle to 1 Corinthians 3:12-15: "Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." The prodigal son never lost his salvation, or sonship --he lost his moral compass. Another point that you made about this parable is that the father showed emotions -- waiting for the son to return -- without affecting what the son did. I never said that God does not show emotions. I have already quoted 1 Samuel 24:1, where God is angry. Ephesians 4:30 says, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." God can be grieved by our behavior, yet the Holy Spirit is still His promise of our future salvation at the day of glory. However, God will and must do what He says, even if He is hurt emotionally through it. This passage never says otherwise. There is one distinction between this parable and God. This father was human, and therefore powerless to effect the life of his son. God is all powerful and is able to effect the lives of His children. We read in Philippians 1:6, for instance that He who began a good work in us, will bring it to completion. We read in 1 Corinthians 8 that Jesus "will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." We read in Jude 24: "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." 2 Corinthians 3:18 says, "But we all, with unveiled faces, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord." This does not exempt moral responsibility. I am not saying that God does it all, and we don't do anything. We are to cooperate with God. As I have stated before, Jude 20 says that we are to build ourselves up in the most holy faith. The best example of this can be found in Philippians 2:12-13, and I'll quote it from the NLT: "Dearest friends, you were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God's saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. For God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey Him and the power to do what pleases Him." All of these passages speak to God's power in our lives, making us holy and blameless -- and it all happens much faster if we cooperate with God, something any true Christian will do. The human father in the parable of the prodigal son had no power to help his son return to him. Therefore, he looked daily for his son to return. 1 CORINTHIANS 2:14 Rather than beginning with 1 Corinthians 3:1, I am going to begin with 1 Corinthians 2:6: "However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing." This age is spelled out in Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." This age is of unbelievers, caught up in their lusts, and the prince of the air, or Satan. These people are dead in their trespasses until God makes them alive. Now, returning to 2 Corinthians 2, beginning in verse 7: "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written: 'Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.' But God has revealed them to us (believers) through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, es the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world (world = unbelievers) but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. BUT THE NATURAL MAN DOES NOT RECEIVE THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD, FOR THEY ARE FOOLISHNESS TO HIM, NOR CAN HE KNOW THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED." Thus the natural man of the world cannot understand spiritual things, since it requires the Holy Spirit -- God has revealed them to "us" Christians. The NLT renders 1 Corinthians 2:14 this way: "But people who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit says." Until God opens one's minds to receive the truth, one cannot understand it. Now, in 1 Corinthians 3, I believe that Paul is telling the Corinthians, whom he already mentioned had the Holy Spirit and were not among the people of this world who cannot understand, to start acting like it. He is saying, "I could not speak to you as spiritual people, but as carnal" because they had been fighting God's work in their lives. Again, the NLT renders this verse: "Dear brothers and sister, when I was with you I couldn't talk to you as I would to mature Christians. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in the Christian life." "As though" does not mean they WERE the people of the world, only that they were acting as though they were. Now, I read the rest of your post, and discovered other passages. I'm going to go over them quickly. Jude 10: The book of Jude was written to warn against false teachers: "For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 4) These teachers are FALSE, they are not TRUE Christians, they are FALSE Christians PRETENDING to be true Christians. Since, they do not have the mind of Christ, they do not understand the things of Christ. Verse 10 says, "But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves." They don't know what they are talking about because they are natural, not spiritual. 1 Peter 4:6. Here I'll defer to John MacArthur's study bible, page 1916. He says, "Peter had in mind believers who had heard and accepted the gospel of Christ when they were still alive, but who had died by the time Peter wrote this letter. Some of them perhaps had been martyred for their faith. Though these were dead physically, they were triumphantly alive in their spirits. All their judgment had been fully accomplished while they were still alive in this world ("in the flesh"), so they will love forever in God's presence." I would add that the gospel is preached to spiritually dead people, but God opens their minds to understand the truth as He draws them to Himself. Those He does not draw, never understand the spiritual things of God. As to the Old Testament passages, in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit never permanently indwelt people. He came and went. John 14:16-18 says, "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you FOREVER, that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, AND WILL BE IN YOU." Jesus says in John 16:7: "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you, but if I go, I will send Him to you." It is only through the Holy Spirit indwelling us that we have His sustaining power throughout all of life. In the Old Testament He came and went, and the believers did not have that resource we have. It did not happen until after Jesus ascension, but has been with all believers since then. There's not really much I can add to this and I am sorry it is incredibly long. I spent 5 hours on one post the other day, and 3 hours today. That does not include all of the posts in between. It's time to move on. I trust that you love God -- which is totally God pleasing, so I leave you wishing His peace in your life.!!

Kross, I believe we have conversed enough to know that we both absolutely agree with each other on the doctrine of election -- God is soveregn, and draws us to Him. We can not come any other way. Yet we have a moral responsibility to accept that call, even though His plan is that we will. So, when I explain why others believe Calvinism is "fatalistic", please know that I do NOT agree with them!! They say it because if there is no choice in what we do, and God decrees everything, and no matter WHAT happens, He's already decided it will and acted to bring it about -- then we do not have to lift a finger to do anything at all. We can sit back and watch Him work. Those who would be saved, will be, even without our input. Simply the idea of this happening, and us with no say so whatever, is what they call "fatalistic". Yet I see us as cooperating with God to bring about His will, to His glory, and for His purposes. I see hope, not fatalism. The other dilemma for those who see this as fatalistic is that if somebody is not a believer, there is no hope for them since they are "not chosen". I view unbelievers as being unbelievers FOR THE MOMENT, and since I don't know if they are saved or not, I will do everything I can to give them the facts they need, and I will pray for God to open their spiritual discernment to receive the seed I pray He's worked through me to plant. So, for me, there is hope, not fatalism. I hope that answers your question. Rhonda

I'm not sure how God can choose and we can still have moral responsibility, but for the texts that I've outlined in previous posts, I believe it because the Bible teaches it, as one accepts the Scriptures at face value. I have heard the fears outlined in this post from others. I would like to speak to them. It is stated that the belief in predestination can lead to fatalism. This is because it is feared that if every event is planned beforehand, this will stop people from acting, or evangelizing, because God will do His will, with or without us, and that attempts at witnessing would be half-hearted at best. However, I see no Scriptural truth in these fears. For instance, Paul, who taught predestination, or God's choosing, determined to preach nothing except Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2). He went to prison, was beaten, and beat up, all for preaching the gospel -- eventually giving his life in its defense. When he preached to unbelievers, he did not preach predestination -- He preached Chr1st -- and urged their belief. The Scriptures are too numerous to cite. In Acts 2, Peter preached the gospel, and then in verses 38-39 told unbelievers to repent and be baptized. In Acts 3-4, he and John were imprisoned for their faith. When told to quit preaching, Peter said that they must obey the will of God more than the will of man. Peter also gave his life for the gospel. Yet in 1 Peter 1, he makes it clear that he believes in predestination. John believed in predestination, and as was already mentioned, was imprisoned for it. He was in Patmos when he had the visions included in he book of Revelation. According to John 20:30-31, John stated that his purpose in writing the book of John was to write these things down, so that people might believe. Jesus also speaks of predestination in John 6:37, 39, 44 and 63, yet His final words before ascension were, :"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matthew 28:19-20) According to Luke, Jesus said: "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." (Luke 24:46-47) Therefore anybody who fails to evangelize to a lost world, teaching repentance and remission of sins, is being disobedient to God's (Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity's) direct command. There is a reason that the managers of Worthy Boards placed this thread in the Inner Court (for believers only) doctrinal issues section -- unbelievers need to know Christ and Him crucified -- not predestination. My biggest reason for believing in predestination is because a straightforward reading of Scripture says that it is there. My biggest reason for defending it here is because I believe God to be sovereign, and would not wish to see that sovereignty lessened or compromised. My entire life is dependent upon God: from when and where I live, to the works that I do, to the ability to do them -- and even my salvation and sanctification. Yet, having stated all of that, God does give us moral responsibility, and we are to act in accordance with His will. I would not choose God, so I am extremely thankful that He chose me. However, I did not receive the promised salvation until I cooperated with God's plan, repented, renounced sins, forsook self, and promised to depend upon God for my salvation and sanctification. Both are there. The other concern is that in teaching this to others, that they would not wholeheartedly seek God, and would abuse the teaching. I can not be responsible for what others do, and I only teach about this when the subject is raised, and only among believers. This is an aspect of a growing Christianity, not an aspect of preaching to unbelievers. However, to compromise my beliefs for fear they would be misunderstood or abused is to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The best Scriptural example I can use for this is that there were two opposite reactions to the gospel written in the Bible. Some believed that the fact that stating a belief in Christ led to salvation meant that one could continue in sin because, hey, you're going to heaven anyway. Paul writes about this: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? GOD FORBID. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Romans 6:1-2) From there, Paul explains that when we were baptized into Christ (Immersed into Christ -- not immersed into water), we "died" with Him, were "buried" with Him and "rose" with Him into newness of life -- the old is done away with, and therefore we are urged to live the new life we have received. Others were so afraid that they would give into licentiousness that they back-pedaled and were overly concerned with the keeping of the law. Paul answers this concern in Galatians 3:1-3; 2:20: "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect in the flesh?...I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gae Himself for me." Paul tells the Galatians, who are going back to the law, the same exact thing he told the Romans, who were disregarding the law totally: when you were saved you were crucified to the flesh with Christ, buried with Christ and rose again with Christ -- you are a new person. In fact, according to Colossians 1:27, Christ in us is our hope of glory, and according to Colossians 3:3 says, "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." This is the good news of salvation: Christ is in us, we have new life, we are able to be good from our heart on out, here and new, because we are indwelt by Christ through the Holy Spirit. That truth is never compromised, even though some took it to a liberal extreme, and others took it to a legalistic extreme. The good news did not change, and Paul was never afraid to teach it, for fear that some would misunderstand it -- but tried to speak to those misunderstandings. Any person who is truly saved, has repented, is depending upon God, and has the Holy Spirit in their hearts, will not lose their salvation and go to hell -- nor will they ever return to a life which includes the love of sinning since the whole purpose of their salvation was to get AWAY from the love of sinning. Just as Jesus is both fully God and fully Man, just as Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God making intercession for us, and yet is abiding in us, just as God has made us a new man, giving us a new heart and Spirit (2 Corinthians 5:17; Ezekiel 36:26-27), we are to "put on" this new man, which God has already created in righteousness and true holiness (Ephesians 4:22-24) -- just as all of these things are absolutely true, so it is also true that God chose us before the beginning of time for the purpose to the praise of His glory (Ephesians 1:4-11), and yet, we are to trust and believe in Him (Ephesians 1:13). That is what the Bible says, and that is what I believe. It is what I will continue to teach at the right time and in the right setting. May God's peace be on all who read this, and I appreciate the opportunity to present my "case" for predestination, so to speak. Thank you.

rca, I would like to respond to this one phrase you wrote: You are asking me to read some selected verses from a neutral position. You have a prime datum to defend and so do I. So I do not see why you would ask me to read these verses from a neutral standpoint when you yourself do not read Scripture from a neutral position. When I read those verses the first time, I read them from a neutral position. Let me see if I can explain myself a little better, in what I mean by "neutral" position. When I read, "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has predetermined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings." (Acts 17:26), I see that as saying that God predetermined which nation should be where, and since they were nations of men, then God decided which men should be in which nation. When I read, "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed, and in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me; when as yet there were none of them." (Psalm 139:16), I see that God ordained the number of days for me before one of them came to be. When I read, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10), I believe that God created me for certain good works that only I could do in the time that He allotted me and in the place that He allotted me to live here and now. I believe that you would agree with these interpretations. When reading these passages, that is what they mean, not from any agenda, but from a simple reading. Now, in order to perform these good works foreordained beforehand, God gave me spiritual gifts to "get the job done." That is what Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4 and 1 Peter 4 are about. You are correct in stating that this is not speaking about salvation faith, but it is speaking about the fact that God predetermined when and where I would live, and what I would do with my life, even giving me gifts to do what He predetermined I would do. Now, there is a precedent that God predetermined certain people for certain tasks and or elected them. For instance: For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers. (Deuteronomy 7:6-8a) Please note that God chose Israel, not because of anything Israel is or did, but because He loved Israel, and because He promised Abraham -- whom He chose to be the father of many nations, particularly His own chosen people. The fact that He chose Israel from all other nations to be His own chosen people speaks of some sort of selection, in just a simple reading of the text, and the text clearly states that it is not because they chose Him, but because He chose them. And the Lord saiid to her: Two nations are in your womb, two peoples shall be separated from your body; one people shall be stronger than the other, nd the other shall serve the younger. (Genesis 25:23) Although this passage does not explain why God said that the older would serve the younger, in direct violation of the norm at that time, Romans 9:10-12 DOES explain it: "And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even byour father Isaac, (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who cals), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." A simple reading of this verse percludes that Jacob was chosen because of his works or anything that he would do, the purpose of God was in the election or choosing. To add any other interpretation to this Scripture is to take away from what it clearly says. "According to all that I show you, that is, the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings, just so you will make it." (Exodus 25:9). Then the Lord said to Moses, saying:, "See, I have called by name Bezalel the Son or Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronce, in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of workmanship. And I, indeed I, have appointed with him Aholiab the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan; and I have put wisdom in the hearts of all the gifted artisans, that they may make all that I have commanded you..." (Exodus 31:1-6) So, God got involved with the planning and execution of building the tabernacle -- even to choosing certain men from among the messes to be over the building of it. God gets involved in His creation and with His created people. He is sovereign. I could go on and on with examples from the Bible, and I listed others in my other posts. You do not deny that God chooses certain people for certain tasks. In effect, what I was stating is that God chooses when we will be born, what we will look like, where we will live and what we will do in our lives. From what I understand, you do agree with this. The only exception to this that you don't believe is that God predetermines who will be saved, just as He has predetermined every other aspect of our lives. Yet, the Bible says: For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to WHOM HE WILL." (John 5:21) This passages does not say that the Son gives life to everybody -- only those He wills. All that the Father GIVES ME will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out...This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has GIVEN ME I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last days...No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS HIM and I will raise him up at the last day...And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been GRANTED TO HIM by My father." (John 6:37, 29, 44, 65) This says that God will grant belief to certain people, and everybody He grants it to will believe. ...in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will GRANT them repentance, so that they may know the truth. (2 Timothy 2:25) When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God , saying, "Then god has also GRANTED to the Gentiles repentance to life. (Acts 11:18) The Jewish people, who had been chosen by God, were glad that God also chose some Gentiles to believe. Now, among the Gentiles, there was also joy: "Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48) You have stated that "appointed" (or ordained, according to the KJV) either means appointed by God, the primary meaning, or appointed by mutual consent, a secondary meaning. There is no acknowledgement of mutuality here -- the Gentiles are happy that the ones whom GOD appointed, did believe. God decided first, then they believed. "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29) "elect according to the forknowledge of god the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:2) "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you." (1 Peter 1:20) The same word is used in all of these places, and it carries the meaning of predetermining for a purpose. A ruse of Greek grammar, called the Granville rule, equates predetermination and foreknowledge. Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His wil, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved...In Him alse we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things accoding to the counsel of His will, that we who first rusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed you were raised with the Holy Spirit of promise. (Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-13) Now, here it says that God predestined us before the foundation of the world -- not because of anything we did or are -- but according to His purpose and for His glory. It adds that when we heard the gospel, we believed, just as Acts 13:48 says that those whom God appointed 'believed", our moral responsibility. These passages, along with John 1:12-13, which says that our becoming Christians is not the will of flesh, nor of man, but of God, all show that the purpose of he selection is for God's glory, and is not based on what we will do. You've stated that God knew we would believe and so He predestined us to believe; but the passages state otherwise. In fact, I think you even said that about John 1:13, but the passage clearly says NOT the will of flesh NOR the will of man. That is why I say that God chose apart from "knowing what we will do." However, I have never denied that we must be morally responsible for our choices. Those who were "appointed" by God believed. In reading exactly what that passage says, I cannot deny that we must believe. God predestined us according to His purposes, yet we also trusted after we heard the word of truth, and after having believed, we were raised by the Spirit of Christ. I have never denied this -- we ARE morally responsible for believing in Christ. We are also without excuse, as you have repeatedly pointed out by quoting Romans 1:18-31 -- God gave us creation as a witness to Him. I am simply reading all of these texts and accepting them all as the truth of God. Where we have come to disagreements is where I have stated how I put them together logically in my own mind, something I have repented of by stating that the Bible does not offer an explanation of how they fit together -- just that they do. EricH has offered an example. 2 Samuel 24: says, "Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah." This clearly says that God was moved against Israel and CAUSED David to move against them. 1 Chronicles 21:1 says, "Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel" So, God caused David to move against Israel. Satan moved David to number Israel. One could say that God moved David against Israel, using Satan as His agent. Yet, in verse 8, David tells God, "I have sinned greatly." David was still morally responsible. If you read 1 Chronicles 21:1 and say, "See, Satan did it" -- meaning you take the words at face value, and you read 1 Chronicles 21:8, and say, "See, David sinned of his own free will" -- reading it exactly for what it says and taking it at face value, why do you not read 2 Sameul 24:1 where it says, "Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go number Israel and Judah" at face value, and accept it for what it says? Someone from a neutral position would accept all three because the Bible clearly SAYS all three. Now, does that make sense? Not now to humans because we don't understand everything, and God's ways are past finding out, or as Ecclesiastes 3:11 puts it: "No one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end." So, no, I don't understand it -- but I believe it because the Bible says it. That is what I mean by being neutral -- accepting what the Bible says, even when we don't understand it, becuase the Author of the Bible -- GOD HIMSELF -- is a God of love and I trust Him above all else. The difference is that I quit trying to figure it out, and I just state what the Bible actually SAYS, stating I believe it by virtue of the fact that the Bible says it. I just don't know what else I can add to that.

Rhonda Lou, you talk about 2 perspectives, heaven and earth. That in heaven the decision that we will decide for God has already been made. You say that on earth we still must decide. You say that God has to decide first, otherwise we would be sovereign over God. If that were true then to be consistent we can only decide what God has decided for us. If we decided otherwise then we would cancel out what God has decided and then we would be sovereign, not God. So what this really means is that God has first choice and He has last choice. Yet you say that we also have free will. You say that you believe in predestination and free will, both. The way you define predestination is that God chooses first. This is like the old Communist system. They said that they have democratic elections but there is only one candidate on the ballot slip. In other words you have free choice but only one option to choose. That is not free choice. You say that God decides ahead of us, not on the basis of knowing what we will do. If that were true, then we would be sovereign over God. I disagree, if God chooses based on knowing us then God is still sovereign, He just is not absolute sovereign. God gave up absolute sovereignty when He created free choice. Absolute means that He decides everything including trivial things like scratching our nose. Also that when you say God chooses ahead of time but not on the basis of knowing what we will do, this contradicts Romans 8:29 where it says that For those He foreknew He also predestined. Now on another occasion you said that the Greek word from which "foreknew" comes from, the same word is translated as "foreordained" in 1 Peter 1:20. So you are trying to make a point that you could use the word "foreordained" in Rom 8:29. The Greek word is "proginosko" and it is a compound word. The first part "pro" means beforehand". "Ginosko" means knowledge. The English word "agnostic" comes from that same Greek word. "Agnostic" means "no knowledge" as "a" means negative. Everytime this Greek word "Ginosko" is used on its own (not part of a compound word) it always is translated "know". So "foreknew" clearly means "foreknew" and nothing else. In Matthew 7:23 Jesus says "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew (ginosko) you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness". He says "never" which includes before the foundation of the earth. Jesus knows who will be and who will remain believers (John 2:24,25; 6:64). So to paraphrase Romans 8:29a "For those God knew beforehand that they would believe, He destined them beforehand ...". Jesus did not intimately know these people because of what they were doing as the context of Matthew 7 clearly says. God's knowing us intimately is based on our response to God, not on God's decision in the past having nothing to do with foreknowledge. I think that it is faulty logic to say that by us being able to decide our fate (heaven or hell) then we would become sovereign, not God. All what this would mean is that God is not absolute sovereign. Scripture never says that God is absolute sovereign. Also saying God decides ahead of us not on the basis of knowing what we will do is going against the Scriptures (Rom 8:29). rca, I believe we are going around in circles. I still believe that the Bible teaches that God predestined us not based on our will, but His sovereignty. I do not see John 1:13 stating any other thing. I have heard your ideas about the passage, but I am just reading it as straightforward as I can -- we are born not of the will of man, or of the will of flesh, but the will of God. Other passages I have cited state the same thing. I will admit that when I state that if God made the choice based on our desire, that would make us sovereign over God, that is only MY logic, and you are welcome to disagree with me I DO, however, believe in both predestination and in free will. I, and EricH have attempted to explain that though this does not seem to make sense, it is biblical, and it is the same as saying that Jesus is fully God and fully man -- something which seems contradictory, but is true. If you want to put the Bible passages together differently than I do, again, that is your perogative. But, for the last several answers to myself, or EricH, I have noticed that most of your responses have been, 'If...Then" or human logic. I have explained that Paul spent much of Romans 9-11 defending predestination, yet in the middle of chapter 10, he said that we need to confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead. He never tried to explain how onw or the other worked, just said both were true, and at the end of chapter 11, he said that God's ways are past finding out. I should have taken a lesson from him, and not tried to explain why I see it as heaven's and earth's perspectives, just stuck with the Scriptures. I believe with all of my heart that you and I are both trying to please God. But this is not an issue which should divide Christians, and I believe the most loving thing to do at this point is to agree to disagree. God bless you.

RCA, Again, this is getting too lengthy to keep copying the whole thread between each of us. Did you read what ErichH had to say about paradoxes, and what I quoted from Romans 11:33? Let me ask you, if you were to read the following verses, from a neutral position, without any views which need to be maintained, what would be your understanding of them? "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings." (Acts 17:26) "Your eyes saw my substance being yet unformed, and in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me when as yet there were none of them." [/b](Psalm 139:16) "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10) "For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith...Having then gifts differing according to the gracte that was given to us, let us use them, if prophecy, let us prophesy, in proportion to our faith..." (Romans 12:3, 6) "Who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, saying to Jerusalem, 'You shall be built." And to the temple, "Your foundation shall be laid." Thus says the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held -- to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings, to open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut..." (Isaiah 44:28, 45:1)[/i]..."Now in the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia, that the word of the Lord, by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying, "Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah." [/b](Ezra 2:1-2) Isaiah wrote his words a century and a half before Cyrus lived, and it is doubtful that Cyrus ever heard of it before he fulfilled it. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you; I ORDAINED you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5) Time prohibits my going through the whole list of Old Testament prophets. "So the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying..." "But the Lord said to him. "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake." (Acts 9:11; 15-16) Now, would you not say that God had sovereign control over not only special prophets, but also over every person to decide when they would live, what nation they would belong to, which tasks He prepared beforehand for them to do, how much faith they would have, and which gifts to give them? In fact, according to many people, God has control over everything except our decision for or against Christ. Nobody even really quibbles about anything else. Yet, at the same time, did not every single one of those people, including Cyrus, operate out of free will? Cyrus had NO CLUE that this is what God wanted him to du until Daniel told him. That is why it can say one place that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and in another place that Pharaoh had a hard heart. Now, I quoted that web-site because of all of the passages in that web-site. As you read those passages, what do they mean to you? Can you read them from a neutral position without trying to see how they can fall into free will or predestination? What do they honestly SAY? For instance, what does the following passages mean? "The Lord has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom." (Proverbs 16:4) "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ORDAINED to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 4) "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath, PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION." (Romans 9:22) "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity. I, the Lord, do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7) Finally, a word on paradoxes in the Bible: I'll just pick one passage, but I'll just pick two: "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life...Now to HIM who is able to KEEP YOU from stumbling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." (Jude 20, 24) and quoted from the NLT: "Dearest friends, you were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God's saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. For GOd is working in you, giving you the desire to obey him, and the power to do what pleases Him." (Philippians 2:12-13) So, obedience in the Christian walk: is it God's work or ours? Answer: both. Is there predestination and free will. Answer: both. I told you the way I get my head around it is looking at it from God's perspective and from the human perspective. The Bible does not make that distinction, it is just how I understand it. But the Bible clearly teaches both. I would leave you with one last thing: I do not decide who is chosen or not chosen; God does that. Nor can I say that just because a person does not believe now, that they never will -- the timing may not be right. Some plant, and some water. I've had plenty of mentors in my own life. So, I do not believe it is ever, EVER a good idea to tell another that the reason they don't believe is that God did not call them. PLUS, God still tells us to go and teach all nations, so a belief in predestination does not exempt me from spreading the gospel, which is all Christ. Predestination is an issue for believers to discuss; the gospel is the same regardless of whether one believes in predestination or free will -- and it is that gospel which is to be preached. The results are left up to God and the other person, but I am not exempted from preaching. Neither was Charles Spurgeon, by the way, who was a bigger believer in predestination than I am. Again, I am out of time, and do not have time to proof this, but I hope it answers some of your questions.

rca, I'm sorry, but I thought of a couple of things I'd like to clarify. First of all, thank you for your sympathies in connection with Buff (who had cancer) and Ming (who had a stroke). The medicine which was to aid in their pain-free, alertness was no longer working. That was the reason we had to put them to sleep, and I miss them terribly. Thanks again for your sympathy. I stated in my last post that God was wratfhul at sin, which resides in sinners. The penalty for sin, which resides in sinners, is death. Jesus paid the penalty for sin, which resides in sinners, and according to Romans 8:19-20, even in creation itself. So there is an aspect which covers "the world" "all mankind", etc. I am not denying that, it is Scriptural. However, I'm afraid I made it too impersonal -- each person is still responsible for their own actions - the sin inside them. I wanted to clarify that. The wages of sin (general sin) is death, and each person must pay that penalty spiritually as Jesus paid it physically on the cross. Finally, I understand that the concept of God's perspective and our perspective (God chooses, and acts, not based on our will -- and yet we must choose) sounds contradictory or illusory, and that is why we are having this conversation. It does not make sense from a human reasoning point of view. Yet, I liken it to the fact that Jesus is and always has been the Second Person of God -- the Word was with God and the Word was God -- but He is also human -- the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He is fully God, forgiving sins, performing miracles, dying and being raised from the dead, though John 10:17 says that Jesus picks up His life again; other verses say that the Father raised Him from the dead. Both are true. Yet, He also bled, got hungry, and got tired. He was human. He is fully God and fully man. Does that make sense? No. Yet, are both true? Yes. That is really all that I'm saying. When I read passages, I see where they fit in chronology, or whatever. When you quote a passage which states that Jesus died for everybody -- I agree with that in that Christ died to pay the penalty for sin which resides in everybody. When you quote a passage which says that we must choose God, I agree with that from the human/earthly perspective. When you say that God is not willing that any should suffer, I agree with that in that His momentary will is that none should suffer, but His larger goal is to deal with the sin problem, and have His glory known. When you say whoever believes in God shall be saved, I agree with that, because God graciously gives us free will. When you say that God is sovereign, I agree with that. When you say that God chooses us because He knows who will believe in Him, I believe that, although God knows who will be saved -- that is not the reasons for His choice based on passages I've already shared with you. I am not disqualifying any passage of Scripture: not Romans 9:10-23, NOR 2 Peter 3:9 -- not John 1:12 nor John 1:13 -- not passages which say that God first draws us, nor passages which say that God accepts all who believe. They are all in the Scriptures, and all are true. So, please do not think that I believe some over others; I believe them all. Human reasoning can't explain it any more than human reasoning can explain how Jesus could be fully God, yet fully man. That is why after Paul declared God's election in Romans 9-11 -- and included free will in Romans 10:8-12; 17), Paul says at the very end: "OH, THE DEPTH OF THE RICHES BOTH OF THE WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE OF GOD! HOW UNSEARCHABLE ARE HIS JUDGMENTS AND HIS WAYS PAST FINDING OUT." (Romans 11:33) I'll answer any questions you might have about this, but I have basically stated my case, and now I leave it in God's hands and in your hands. To God be the glory!! Thanks for listening.

rca, It is time to get back to you. I'm sorry this has taken so long, but between computer problems and putting dogs to sleep after 12 1/2 years of love (and the resulting emotions), I have not been up to doing much over the Internet other than my blog. Because my post was so long, and your post was also lengthy, I'm not going to quote the whole thing. I have not figured out the quote button yet, so I'll just be copying and pasting. Nor will I be able to answer everything tonight. For starters, once again I remind you that I do believe in predstination totally and free will totally; I believe that God determines who will and will not be saved. I also believe in free will -- that God wants us to choose Him. I do not find this to be a contradiction. I can't exactly explain it because Scripture never says why God predetermines and acts on our behalf, and yet why He wants us to believe and receive, but I DO believe that this is what the Bible says. The only way I can get my head around it is to say that it is God's perspective and our perspective. God does not choose based on our will because John 1:13 says: that we are born 'NOT of the will of flesh, NOR of the will of man, BUT OF GOD."[b/] This could not be any clearer. It point blank SAYS that it is not our will, but God's. However, verse 12 says that God gave the right to become children of God to those "who believed in His name."[b/] Faith through free will does play a part, but God, through the Holy Spirit point blank says, that we are born NOT of OUR will, but of HIS will. That is not twisting Scripture, that is just repeating what it says, in context. The next thing that I'd like you to consider is that the Bible should NEVER be read as a Calvinist, nor as an Armenian -- but is to be studied for what it says from a neutral point of view. I do not consider myself to be a Calvinist. I believed in predestination before I ever heard of Calvin -- simply because the Bible teaches it. So, if possible, try not to think of me as a Calvinist, or guess what I might believe based on what he believed. I am simply trying to explain what I believe the Bible teaches. To begin with, you state: Can a dead person believe? No, a physical dead person certainly can do absolutely nothing. The Bible uses word pictures. They give pictures of a reality but there is a limit how far you can go with it. God is our Rock. But a rock is a dead material thing. God is certainly not like that. [b/] This is your counterpoint to my quoting Colossians 2:13, "and you, being dead in your sins..."[b/] What the passage in Colossians 2:13 is stating is that man is SPIRITUALLY dead. DEAD things need life. A physically dead person is physically dead. A spiritual dead person is just as dead spiritually. To prove just how "dead" spiritually this spiritual dead person is, I quoted other passages. Romans 8:6-8 says that those carnally minded are spiritually dead, they are in enmity against God, and CANNOT keep the law. Those who have the Spirt of God in them are Christians and CAN keep the law through Christ. Not only can an unbeliever not keep the law, but they don't even understand spiritual things, indeed CAN NOT know them, according to 1 Corinthians 2:14. According to Romans 3:11-12, no one seeks God, no one understands, all have turned aside. Salvation is impossible for an unbeliever without God opening their eyes to it. I quoted John 6:44, 65 where Jesus says not once but twice, that nobody can come to the Father unless the Father first draws Him. He must act in our lives before we can come to Him because we are spiritually dead. I will take up the next point later, but I'd like to close with one final thought. Adam and Eve walked with God and thus were aware of God. They were able to choose, having information to do so. The nation of Israel had God with thim in the desert, in the ark, in a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day. They had enough information to make a choice. Once God begins to draw us to Himself, we have information about Him and are able to make a choice. Believers have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, they have a new heart and a new spirit, yet this is all contained in flesh - treasures in earthen vessels. We are constantly reminded to live by the Spirit rather than the flesh -- a choice. Unbelievers do not have a choice. They are dead in their sins, they do not seek God -- in fact John 3:19 says they run from God, their mind is incapable of understanding spiritual truths, and their flesh is incapable of choosing God -- until God draws that person to Himself. Therefore, until God begins to work in our lives, there is no choice. Once God works in our lives, there is a choice -- in fact, according to Scripture, there MUST be. The biggest section on predestination in the whole Bible about predestination is Romans 9-11, and right in the middle of that, Paul says, 'If we confess with our mouths Jesus as Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we are saved" and that "faith comss by hearing" (once God has opened our ears to hear). This is chapter 10:8 and 17, paraphrased by me, with the parentheses added. I never said there was no free will -- I simply said that it did not determine who is and is not saved -- God does that. However, it is a requirement of salvation: we must believe. Please tell me where I am wrong in the Scriptures I have quoted, keeping in mind that I am not a Calvinist. I will proceed to your other passages if you still want me to, but what else can the Bible mean in the passages I've quoted here? I am sorry to hear about the loss of your dog. Hopefully you did not lose important data due to your computer problems. I too agree that God determines who will and will not be saved. But this is based on our reponse to Him. God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). In various ways God speaks to all men hoping that they will respond with repentance. Once they repent then He gladly saves us. We both have stated our position on John 1:12-13 before. John 1:12 says that all who receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right [or power] to become children of God. This is like an orphan child asking someone that they want to be their father if they can be their father. The child may want that man for his father but that is not up to the child to decide. Ultimately the man must decide if he wants to adapt that child. That is how it is with us. We may want to become a child of God but it is up to God to give us the right to become a child of God. To receive Christ or to believe in His name is to repent. According to 2 Peter 3:9 all that repent, God will want to save them. There are some that claim to receive Christ. They are like the bad soils in Matthew 13. God knows everyone who will believe from the heart. That is what is the basis of His decision in 1:13. God knows if your repentance is genuine, if you truly will do works worthy of repentance. (Matthew 3:7-10). Concerning can a dead person live. What you hi-lited in bold was my lead up to the whole question. I went on to explain it more fully. I see your take on this issue as: You are dead. It is impossible to say yes to God. You have the old nature. God draws you Once God draws then it is impossible to say no to God. God has given you a new nature. Some of this I got from other posts that you wrote. Post 916 and 922. From my reading of Scripture there is John 1:9 "The true light which enlightens everyone was coming into the world. This is the leadup to John 1:12-13 which we have discussed. Meaning that everyone was enlighted by this light. Then there is John 16:8-11 where the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world of sin. Then there is Romans 1:18-19 where unrighteous man is without excuse because what can be known about God was made plain to them. Then Romans 2:4 where God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance. Rom 10:18 asks if all have heard and the answer is affirmative. All of the above verses show God's kindness leading to repentance. Your big trigger for repentance is when God draws you. Some writers use different words to say the same thing. In many ways all the above verses have different ways of saying that God draws. You mentioned 3 times about having enough information to make a choice (Adam & Eve, Israel in the desert). Romans 1:19 says "For what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them". In other words they had enough information to make a choice. Jesus enlighten the world (John 1:9) gave them enough information to make a choice. The Holy Spirit convicting gave people enough information to make a choice. All of the above examples were given to the entire world, so they are without excuse. Then considering John 6:44 which you often quote. You do not quote John 6:45 the following verse. There it says all will be taught by God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me [Jesus]. In John 6:45 the same "comes to me" words are there as well. Then John 12:32 Jesus says that He will draw all men to Himself. You also quote John 3:19 but not 3:21. John 3:20-21 show the 2 possible responses to the light the same way as John 1:11-12 show the 2 responses to the light using a different analogy. Then I would consider Isaiah 5:1-4 another example of God drawing, doing everything possible that Israel would believe. Yet there God failed. So God's drawing is not always sucessful. Why is it not always succesful? It is because free choice is involved. God's part is moving people to come to Him in various ways. But because of free choice it will not always be sucessful. So strictly from a clear reading of the Bible I would conclude that God uses various ways to draw all men. However because of free choice only some respond. rca, thanks for your response. On John 1:12-13. I have agreed with you that as many as receive, or believe in God, He gives them the right to become children. I have always agreed that this proves that our will is required. However, verse 13 says that being born of God is NOT our will, NOT the will of the flesh, but of GOD. It does not God's working in our response to Him because the will is not of man, nor of flesh, but of God. Reading the passage in context, that is exactly what it says. You say that because I render this verse this way, I believe: I am dead -- I still have an old nature. Yes, I believe this. God draws me. Yes, I believe this. Once God draws you, it is impossible to say no to God. God has given me a new nature. No. I don't say that. Once God drawn me, from God's perspective in heaven, I WILL say yes. However, I also have free will. On Earth, I act according to the information I have, and am saved. God has given me enough life by drawing me to allow me to decide for God. In heaven, it is already a done deal. On earth, I still must decide. I do not have a new nature until AFTER I have been saved. The old nature THEN is done away with, but the old man or "flesh" has not been done away with. I have a new mind and a new Spirit, but I still have old flesh. I agree with you that God leaves a witness for everybody in the world. The true life comes into the world. Romans 1:19-20 makes it clear that God provided creation as a witness. Romans 2:15 mentions that those who do not know God are still able to follow a conscience, and the conscience is a witness of God to the world. Acts 14:17 says that God gives rain, harvest, and filled our hearts with food and gladness. We are told that nobody will be without excuse at the judgment because everybody had facts. The Bible clearly says that, and I agree with you on all of those points. The problem is, as I refer you back to other passages, that men do not seek God, and all of those evidences are foolishness to those who are perishing and they CAN NOT understand them, because God has not drawn them, at least not yet. One need only read as far as the unbelievers who access this site, to see how they refuse to believe in creation -- or refuse to believe in the conscience, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrayr -- not because they are stupid, but because they are spiritually blind, and God has not taken off their blinders. God first has to draw. God first has to open their eyes enough to be able to see. And He does not do that for everybody in the world, though we are never to determine who is or is not among God's chosen people. Now, in terms of your "world" verses, John 3:16 does say that God loved "the world" (mankind in general, everybody) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish -- again, as I have stated before, from our perspective, we must believe. However, going back to verse 5-8, we are told that we must be born "of the Spirit" In verse 6, we are told: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Again, we are born of the Spirit. In verse 8, it says, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." We can not tell where the Spirit comes or goes, and the Spirit DOES "come or go" at will -- not OUR will, but God's will. In heaven, where God is, the decision has been made. On earth, we must decide. We both agree with that -- that there are two perspectives: God's and ours. Where we disagree is the order of them. I have shown you how I believe that God decides ahead of us, not on the basis of knowing what we will do. If that were true, we would be sovereign over God, and He would be doing OUR bidding. We don't have the right. In Exodous 33:19, God says, "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." This means that there are some God CHOOSES to be gracious to, and compassionate of. I believe you would say, "Yes, those who God knows will love Him, He chooses to be gracious to." But Romans 9 takes that away. In verse 10-11 state that before Jacob and Esau had done anything, good or evil, God chose Jacob, and it does not say that He chose Jacob based on what Jacob would do, it says that He chose Jacob: "that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls." Again, in verse 16, right after Paul quotes Exodus 33:19, he says, "So then it is NOT OF HIM WHO WILLS, NOR OF HIM WHO RUNS, but OF GOD who shoes mercy." Then, Paul goes on about Pharaoh. Pharaoh, of his own evil heart, went against God -- earth's perspecive -- but in heaven something else had been decided: "For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." It does not say that God allowed Pharaoh an evil heart because He knew that Pharaoh had one: it says that God PURPOSED Pharaoh's heart to be evil so that Go'ds may show His power and so that God's name may be declared in all the earth. So, if Pharaoh had no choice, how can he be found guilty of an evil heart? That is the automatic question, and Paul answers that next: "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say th him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vesself of wrath, prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory to the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory." (Romans 9:20-23) Nowhere here does it say that God is going along with our will -- His will is sovereign. You mention 2 Peter 3:9 a lot. First of all, reading all of 2 Peter 3, we see that Peter is writing to the church; we know this because He calls them "beloved". Those scoffing Jesus' return are in the church. However, Peter's point is that God is withholding judgment from the world (enduring with longsuffering the vessels of wrath) until all of the believers have been called and are saved. This is the only way this passage may be understood in the light of every other Scripture in the Bible. As to how God can select chosen ones, and still not want everybody to suffer, I look at it like this: I wanted to retire, but it required that I pay off my pre-paid funeral, or I would not have the money to retire. That cost $500 per month. There were times I wanted to pay much less -- I had no agreement with anybody that I would pay $500, that was WAY over the minimum, but in order to retire I had to pay it off, even though I didn't want to. I was not willing to, yet for the larger picture, i did it. God is not willing to let any suffer. But for the sake of His glory, and for the sake of His purposes, He does. He gives everybody an opportunity to select Him -- but He only chooses certain ones -- vessels of mercy. He chose Jacob over Esau, Isaac over Ismael, Israel over other nations, He kills and makes whole, He hardens hearts, and according to Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:14-15 and John 12:40, He makes hearts dull, ears heavy, and shuts eyes. God is sovereign. This would make Him a mean God except for the fact that God is love (1 John 4:8) and God works all things to the good of those who love him, to those who are THE called, according to HIS purpose (Romans 8:28). God does not make any decision out of meanness because He is love and wants only our good. Also, God has given the earth, earth's perspective -- meaning that although He has already pre-determined who will be saved -- not based on anything we've done or that He will know what happens -- He requires that we freely choose it. Some will be unable to choose it because they are not chosen -- but the evidence is there for them. Others will choose it -- but it is not theirs until they DO choose it. This is how our life works. God tells us to love everybody: feed the poor, help widows and orphans, love our neighbor as ourself. This covers "the world" -- it is general, meaning all mankind. We are to love EVERYBODY!! But, are there not degrees of love? We would both agree that we love friends and families -- and provide more for them, meeting even more of their needs -- than we do for somebody we have never, ever met. How can we be so cruel as to love some more than others, even though we love all? Why can't we give God the same option? Finally, God's wrath is not against any individual, it is against SIN. There are "vessels" of wrath -- but He is not angry at the vessel, only the wrath inside that vessel. Ephesians 5:3-8 actually says that fornication, uncleanness, covetous, should not be named among saints, nor foolish talking..., that no one who practices this is fit for the kingdom of heaven, "because of thse things (not people, but THINGS -- the list itself) the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." The wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience, not because of the "sons" but because of what is IN the "sons". And He goes on to say that is what some of them WERE, but now they are saved. The wages of SIN (not sinners) is death -- but since sin resides in sinners, the sinners need to repent of the sin in them. God allows free choice, but His pre-determination in heaven has already been made. Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin in every single person -- for the SIN, the wages of SIN is death -- that those who forsake their sin nature may have God's nature inside them. Once again, I have never, nor will you catch me EVER, deny man't will. I just put God's first -- He pre-determines, and then acts in our life, to bring about salvation -- a salvation we must freely accept. It is not an illusion: it is God's perspective and our perspective. Please forgive any mistakes, I'm out of time to proof.

rca, It is time to get back to you. I'm sorry this has taken so long, but between computer problems and putting dogs to sleep after 12 1/2 years of love (and the resulting emotions), I have not been up to doing much over the Internet other than my blog. Because my post was so long, and your post was also lengthy, I'm not going to quote the whole thing. I have not figured out the quote button yet, so I'll just be copying and pasting. Nor will I be able to answer everything tonight. For starters, once again I remind you that I do believe in predstination totally and free will totally; I believe that God determines who will and will not be saved. I also believe in free will -- that God wants us to choose Him. I do not find this to be a contradiction. I can't exactly explain it because Scripture never says why God predetermines and acts on our behalf, and yet why He wants us to believe and receive, but I DO believe that this is what the Bible says. The only way I can get my head around it is to say that it is God's perspective and our perspective. God does not choose based on our will because John 1:13 says: that we are born 'NOT of the will of flesh, NOR of the will of man, BUT OF GOD." This could not be any clearer. It point blank SAYS that it is not our will, but God's. However, verse 12 says that God gave the right to become children of God to those "who believed in His name." Faith through free will does play a part, but God, through the Holy Spirit point blank says, that we are born NOT of OUR will, but of HIS will. That is not twisting Scripture, that is just repeating what it says, in context. The next thing that I'd like you to consider is that the Bible should NEVER be read as a Calvinist, nor as an Armenian -- but is to be studied for what it says from a neutral point of view. I do not consider myself to be a Calvinist. I believed in predestination before I ever heard of Calvin -- simply because the Bible teaches it. So, if possible, try not to think of me as a Calvinist, or guess what I might believe based on what he believed. I am simply trying to explain what I believe the Bible teaches. To begin with, you state: Can a dead person believe? No, a physical dead person certainly can do absolutely nothing. The Bible uses word pictures. They give pictures of a reality but there is a limit how far you can go with it. God is our Rock. But a rock is a dead material thing. God is certainly not like that. This is your counterpoint to my quoting Colossians 2:13, "and you, being dead in your sins..." What the passage in Colossians 2:13 is stating is that man is SPIRITUALLY dead. DEAD things need life. A physically dead person is physically dead. A spiritual dead person is just as dead spiritually. To prove just how "dead" spiritually this spiritual dead person is, I quoted other passages. Romans 8:6-8 says that those carnally minded are spiritually dead, they are in enmity against God, and CANNOT keep the law. Those who have the Spirt of God in them are Christians and CAN keep the law through Christ. Not only can an unbeliever not keep the law, but they don't even understand spiritual things, indeed CAN NOT know them, according to 1 Corinthians 2:14. According to Romans 3:11-12, no one seeks God, no one understands, all have turned aside. Salvation is impossible for an unbeliever without God opening their eyes to it. I quoted John 6:44, 65 where Jesus says not once but twice, that nobody can come to the Father unless the Father first draws Him. He must act in our lives before we can come to Him because we are spiritually dead. I will take up the next point later, but I'd like to close with one final thought. Adam and Eve walked with God and thus were aware of God. They were able to choose, having information to do so. The nation of Israel had God with thim in the desert, in the ark, in a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day. They had enough information to make a choice. Once God begins to draw us to Himself, we have information about Him and are able to make a choice. Believers have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, they have a new heart and a new spirit, yet this is all contained in flesh - treasures in earthen vessels. We are constantly reminded to live by the Spirit rather than the flesh -- a choice. Unbelievers do not have a choice. They are dead in their sins, they do not seek God -- in fact John 3:19 says they run from God, their mind is incapable of understanding spiritual truths, and their flesh is incapable of choosing God -- until God draws that person to Himself. Therefore, until God begins to work in our lives, there is no choice. Once God works in our lives, there is a choice -- in fact, according to Scripture, there MUST be. The biggest section on predestination in the whole Bible about predestination is Romans 9-11, and right in the middle of that, Paul says, 'If we confess with our mouths Jesus as Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we are saved" and that "faith comss by hearing" (once God has opened our ears to hear). This is chapter 10:8 and 17, paraphrased by me, with the parentheses added. I never said there was no free will -- I simply said that it did not determine who is and is not saved -- God does that. However, it is a requirement of salvation: we must believe. Please tell me where I am wrong in the Scriptures I have quoted, keeping in mind that I am not a Calvinist. I will proceed to your other passages if you still want me to, but what else can the Bible mean in the passages I've quoted here?

AMEN AND AMEN!! This is what I've been trying to say so often in this thread -- it is NOT either or -- it is BOTH!! I put it at God's perspective and our perspective, but as I've repeatedly said -- all Scriptures in both camps are in the Bible and they are all true!! I've also said that the way I see it (God's perspective and my own) is just my own attempts to get a handle on it, but that the Bible simply mentions all Scriptures in both camps. I'm glad I am not the only one to see that!! Rhonda

Do you know anybody, even a Christian, who is now perfect? I agree that we do not seek to sin -- we don't chase after sin, but it is my understanding that when the Bible says that nobody born of God will continue to sin, it means that if we commit the same sin over and over without repenting -- or even caring that we sin -- that is continuing to sin. I believe the distinction has to do with motivation -- there is a difference betwwen falling into sin and seeking it out. What the author is talking about is just what you say, that if one continues to willfully sin after "accepting" Jesus, that their "conversion" is false and they were never saved. It does not say that the saved will not sin. The saved will repent and have a changed heart, not committing the same sins on purpose (willfully). There is no license to sin with salvation. For eternal security, there are conditions, which are to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit. He convicts when we sin and leads us to repentance, He brings potentially sinful situations to the forefront so we can avoid them or realize that we have sinned and repent while striving to not sin in the same fashion again. If you do this, God guarantees your salvation. Parker 1, I believe that if one continues to sin, committing the same sin over and over without caring,, then they are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-11 says that if we are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we are not saved). I believe that our hope of glory, or heaven is "Christ in us" (Colossians 1:27). If those have occurred, which they do at the moment we repent and place our trust in Christ to conform us to His image (Romans 8:29-30), that from that point on, we cannot lose our salvation because Ephesians 1:13-14, 4:30 and 1 Peter 1:3-5 say that our seal -- our guarantee -- is the Holy Spirit in us -- and that is for an inheritance which is incorruptible and does not fade away (1 Peter 1:3-5). The Holy Spirit indwelling us, and Christ abiding in us will keep us from the love of sinning. If we love to sin -- if we seek sin out -- it means that the Holy Spirit is in us and therefore we are not saved. The Holy Spirit does not jump in and out of us -- He is promised to be in us forever at the moment of salvation. That is a New Testament distinction. In the Old Testament, many prophets and others said, "The Spirit is upon me..." yet the Spirit always left. In the New Testament, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and He does not leave. That was Jesus' promise in John 14 and 16, and it is the promised seal and guarantee of the passages I stated above. People say that nobody can snatch us from God's hands means that nobody else can do it -- but we can snatch ourselves from God's hands by leaving. That does not fit the context of the passage -- God is more powerful than we ourselves are -- and wouldn't let us jump -- IF INDEED HE IS IN US. That is what I believe all of the warnings in the Bible are -- self-examination tests to see whether or not we are saved. If the Holy Spirit is in us, good works WILL follow because of who HE is in us.

Do you know anybody, even a Christian, who is now perfect? I agree that we do not seek to sin -- we don't chase after sin, but it is my understanding that when the Bible says that nobody born of God will continue to sin, it means that if we commit the same sin over and over without repenting -- or even caring that we sin -- that is continuing to sin. I believe the distinction has to do with motivation -- there is a difference betwwen falling into sin and seeking it out.

how far do you have to walk in order to walk away from your salvation? i mean, how much sin is "too much" sin that causes one to fall away? where is the line of demarcation? and how do you know if you've crossed that line? can we know? I believe that if you take one step in the wrong direction you have turned your back on god, but I've been taught all my life that God will always welcome back the sinner, for he is great and wrathful yet graceful and merciful. no matter the severity one can recommit to God, but you have not truly achieved salvation until you choose to follow God utterly and never fall to temptation again. You can only achieve salvation by dieing to yourself and giving all control to God. "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life i live in the body i live by faith in the son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Galations 2:20 NIV I agree with you that true repentance is to forsake the love of sinning -- the desire to go out and do what you want because you are assured of heaven, no matter what. However, we are still in the flesh, and we do fall into sin. Hebrews 10:26 says that if we sin WILLFULLY, there remains no sacrifice for our sins. However, 1 John 1:8-2:1 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin [/b](continually, habitually, the SAME sin). And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." Those to whom John references as "My little children" are Christians. Also, it says that if we say we have not sinned wi make Him out to be a liar and "His Word is not in us". His word is in Christians. Therefore, Christians sin, even after salvation. I would not wish to scare anybody into thinking that they must be perfect after salvation. The difference is that true Christians try NOT to sin; feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit when they DO sin; and, confess and repent of their sins (see 2 Corinthians 7:7-10 for the result of true repentance). False Christians actively seek to find ways to continue to sin, yet still believe that because they have stated a belief in Jesus' death and resurrection they will go to heaven anyway. While it is true that Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin, He rose again to win victory over sins's power. Being a Christian IS a denial of self, a crucifying self for the purpose of letting the victorious Christ live in us and transform us away from sin, it is making Jesus Lord of our lives -- it is not trying to have Christ PLUS sin in our lives. Rhonda

This is essentially the argument Pelagius made in the early 400's A.D. He said that man could only be held responsible for those things he is able to do. This makes sense from a human perspective, but just does not line up with the testimony of scripture. Scipture affirms in numerous places that we were completely dead in our trespasses and sins and unable to do any spiritual good before God (Ephesians 2;1ff for example). Our responsibility before God is not based on our ability to obey Him. It is based on the absolute perection and rightness of God's character and His morality (moral law). Jesus did not say, Be perfect because you are able to be so!. He said be perfect as your Father is perfect (Matthew 5:5). God has also provided a way (apart from our own abilities) for us to fulfill this law. That is why it is grace. It is not of ourselves (our abilities) Nowhere does it say in Scripture that faith is a gift of God. Eph 2:8 says: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. In the Greek "faith" is feminine while "that" is in the neuter. So the gift does not refer to faith but to grace. Rom 6:23 says: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 3:23-24 says: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 3:26 then says: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Salvation is a gift of God but not faith itself. Eph 2:8 says we are saved by grace (God's part) through faith (our part). Joh 3:16 says that whosoever believes is saved. Colossians 2:13a says, "And you, being dead in your trespasses..." How can a dead person believe? "A person in the flesh cannot perceive God: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed CAN BE." (Romans 6:8) "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; NOR CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14) How can one who CANNNOT understand the things of God be saved? Romans 3:11-12 and 23 says, "11No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God, 12All have turned aside; together they have gone wrong and have become unprofitable and worthless; no one does right, not even one!...23Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives