Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[larryt]

larryt,

Your third statement, if I understand you correctly says that Jesus only provided for salvation. This is incorrect. Jesus didn't provide for me to be saved and then leave it up to me to obtain it. If it was up to me it would have never have happened.

This is the crux of the misunderstanding of scripture by proponents of OSAS. There are two salvations spoken of in Scripture. OSAS wants to put the two together, thus they miss the whole understanding.

If we are speaking of believers, then, yes, Christ simply provided for our salvation. The salvation it is emphasizing is the salvation of our souls. This aligns with the purpose of our being created. If man (Adam) had never sinned, he (we) would be working synergistically with God in "saving his (our) soul". Adam was not created eternal, nor mortal, but needed to work with God to bring the created order back to God as a living sacrifice. This is what we are doing as believers. We do this as if the fall had never taken place. This is so because the SALVATION that Christ provided was to overcome the fall. Man cannot save himself from the fall. That is why Christ is the only one that can perform that work. He did what we cannot do, so that we might do the things we were created to do.

Thus, he surely did leave it up to you to save your soul. Your judgement in the last day is determined on what you did with the Christ. Did you enter into His Kingdom, were you a faithful servant in that Kingdom, or did you never enter, or did you depart at any point.

He left it up to man to work with God. It is the whole purpose of creation and it is what we fell from, unable to do because of the fall. Christ removed the fall, now we can do what we are supposed to do, an obligation of our being created first, saved to do, secondly.

You are right about one thing, this is where we differ. You believe in a works salvation. I believe that Jesus did everything and I can do nothing apart from Him. This is where YOU misunderstand the gift of God, and where YOU are confused. Adam WAS created to live forever. He needed no salvation before the fall. Adam had perfect fellowship with God until the fall.

God did not leave it up to me so save my soul but to work OUT the salvation of my soul. He that began a good work in me WILL complete it. HE WILL COMPLETE IT. I did not enter but He brought me in to the Kingdom. And my new man CANNOT sin because His seed REMAINS IN ME.

You miss so much thinking that you can contribute to the finished total work of Christ. How dare you think you can help God in anything.

You are correct in the 4th statement about the works faith relation. The works only indicate that the faith is real. If there are no works there is not faith. the last part of that statement is incorrect in that they will be lost because they never knew Jesus and therefore never knew the love of God. We love because He first loved us.

Loss of faith is loss of salvation. We are saved ONLY through our faith. No one has yet found a text that says we are saved in spite of losing faith, or that we are saved because we became unfaithful. Find one, even a hint of one and you have a begining of proof that you cannot lose your relationship with Christ.

One that is born again cannot loose his faith because it is the gift of God and He will loose NONE THAT COME TO HIM in faith.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

You are right about one thing, this is where we differ. You believe in a works salvation. I believe that Jesus did everything and I can do nothing apart from Him. This is where YOU misunderstand the gift of God, and where YOU are confused. Adam WAS created to live forever. He needed no salvation before the fall. Adam had perfect fellowship with God until the fall.

You are correct that Adam was created to be eternal, but he was not created eternal. If he was, it would have been impossible to fall. Man cannot change his status from immortal to mortal. God in the Garden even aludes to the fact that Adam was barred from the tree of life AFTER the fall, lest he eat thereof and man in his mortal state of fallenness would have been eternal.

However, the Bible clearly indicates man fell. That punishment was death. This precludes anything for which man was created, life, and life in God. Death is the separation of body and soul, the end of the human being as he was created to be. Gen 3:19. Thus man cannot give himself life, which is why Christ was needed to do what man could not do.

Man has no contribution to the work of Christ. He cannot even deny it any more than one can deny their physical birth.

However, as a human being created in God's Image you were created for a purpose. That purpose was to work with God in this created order. It is why we exist as human beings and why human beings, bearing God's Image were also saved from destruction.

The Gift is the salvation of man. He offers it to you by faith since you cannot work for it. But once entered into a covenantal relationship you are in the very same position as Adam. He had a commandment and so do you.

You are both denying the creation and purpose of man's existance and that God has placed a commandment in front of you for your eternal choice.

That is why the Church, historical Christianity has differed and will always differ from man who simply attempts to interpret for himself. The Gospel is universal, not a private thing. It was once given, for all, for all time until His coming again.

The only thing you have shown is I do not accept your personal opinion of salvation.

God did not leave it up to me so save my soul but to work OUT the salvation of my soul.

kinda redundant. But precisely. So why not state it that way then. This whole statement denies OSAS.

He that began a good work in me WILL complete it. HE WILL COMPLETE IT. I did not enter but He brought me in to the Kingdom. And my new man CANNOT sin because His seed REMAINS IN ME.

Could you cite any texts that actually say Christ brought you into the Kingdom? I know of none.

He will complete it if you permit Him to complete it. This goes right back to Adam. God would have finished the Good Work He began in Adam also, but Adam decided to take the bait of the devil with Eve and go it alone. Man is the determinative factor in whether your eternal abode is in heaven or hell. God does not decide for you.

As for not sinning, no MAN SINNETH NOT. Are you a man?

You do well at proof texting. You can make any text doctrine to the exclusion of the mountian of preponderant texts to the contrary.

The same can be said of the whole view of OSAS. They take God's promises to the exclusion of man role in the salvation of his soul. A mutual covenant. God is not the problem, man is the problem.

You miss so much thinking that you can contribute to the finished total work of Christ. How dare you think you can help God in anything.

That is because you are still totally misunderstanding Scripture and misunderstanding what I have just stated. I cannot contribute a thing to what Christ did for me. Will any work, even faith, will not give me life. Will not make me immortal. Any work I do cannot propitiate my sins, surely not the sins of the world. So, just how do I misunderstand the Gospel here. I cannot even deny the Work of Christ. It is imposed on me and if I do not accept that Gift and enter into His covenantal relationship the propitiation of my sins is pointless.

Christ saved mankind, so mankind could do what God created him to do and be. Quite simple. Christ did not negate the creation and the purpose of man being created. If you think so, could you cite any scripture that says anything of that sort?

I dare, because he has promised eternal damnation to me if I do not accept that gift and live IN Him as I was created to live. We either live as He commands or suffer the consequences. Quite simply again. Unfortuantely for you, there is no third choice. Even if you think there might be, it would be moot at the end. You are either IN Christ or you are OUT of Christ. The difference is heaven's inheritance or hell's inheritance.

One that is born again cannot loose his faith because it is the gift of God and He will loose NONE THAT COME TO HIM in faith.

Contradicts most of the NT. As I stated above. This is a mutual relationship, both sides have conditions to meet. God, though, is not our problem. We are our own problem. God does not leave us, is not the initiator of our faithlessness, or unfaithfulness. It is we who become unfaithful. Do you know of any bank that will award you title even though you never made a payment on the mortgage other than the downpayment? If you can, then you can also begin theologically explaining OSAS. Until you can, OSAS has always been a false teaching of scripture.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father

[Thaddaeus]

Butero,

In reality, there is a correct interpretation and a false one. In my mind, I am convinced that the OSAS doctrine is false, but after debating this topic over and over again, I have come to realize there is no way I am going to change the mind of those who are convinced it is true. Mormons are not simply interpreting scripture. They have added to it, with the Book of Mormon, what they refer to as another testiment of Jesus Christ.

There is Truth, it was delievered once by the Holy Spirit to the Apostles. That Truth has been preserved and you can follow that preservation though history. It is that very authentication of history that is the witness to the faithfulness of the Holy Spirit relative to the promise and the actual fulfilment.

First, trying to change a person's mind is not our job. We are called to proclaim the Gospel. The Holy Spirit working upon all men, calling all men to repentance, convicts each person of their sin and need for Christ. Man, all men, give an active answer to that call.

I am also convinced it is false. Not because I think it is, or that I have developed a better interpretation but that OSAS has never seen the light of day in the history of Christianity until maybe 200 years ago. Roots of it are in the Reformation earlier but was not actually termed, fleshed out. Even today, it still has not become a dominant doctrine and yet is being constantly refined and further developed.

Mormons have indeed added, but they have not rejected Scripture either. Just a newer and better, doctrine of the latter day saints.

Catholics do the same thing. They have included several books that were not included in the cannon in their Bible. In addition, they do not include all of the books they once considered scripture in 1611, showing that they have changed over the years. In the Catholic Church, we are forced to rely on the intepretation of the leadership, which is not necessarily "what Scripture actually means and has meant since it was given."

Protestants are doing the very same thing as the Roman Catholics. You forget that Roman Catholicism is the teacher of the Reformation. The Pope didn't call it "Sola Scripturea" but protestants do. OSAS is an addition to scripture, even though no book has ever been written with it and other changes to the Gospel and some protestant denomination adds it to their canon.

The Catholics simply attempt to remove division by expecting everyone to adhere to what is often times false interpretations.

Which also is no different than Protestants. The only difference is that one is an organization headed by one man (magisterium could be added) versus the individual protestant with his bible diligently attempting to interpret scripture as he understands it, not as it was once given.

Edited August 25, 2007 by Thaddaeus

[Guest Greg Davies]

Greg Davies,

P.S. Another helpful scripture is II Cor 1:10. The word deliver in the KJV is also translated as saved. Three levels of salvation: body, soul, and spirit.

the death refered to here is physical death. The condemnation of Adam to mankind. The death that Christ needed to reconcile for mankind. The change from mortal to immortal. Christ overcame death so that we might live both ways, physical and spiritual. Those are the ONLY two deaths and the ONLY two salvations.

I agree in principle. When we receive Jesus and are saved, it is spiritual rebirth (born of the Spirit) from the "so great a death" in II Cor 1:10. It's the death all men are born into because we are from Adam. This is a spiritual condition. Then we enter a process of working out that salvation through the soul (being saved) until Christ is manifest in the flesh (full salvation or "yet to be saved"), the redemption of our bodies.

Your right that their are only two deaths to be resurrected from, the spirit and the body. But don't forget water baptism and the circumcision of the heart were the old stony heart is removed and a new heart of flesh is provided so we can walk in the newness of life and work out our salvation ( Ez 36:26, Col 2:11-13, and Rom 6:4-9). God bless, Greg.

[Thaddaeus]

Greg Davies,

I agree in principle. When we receive Jesus and are saved, it is spiritual rebirth (born of the Spirit) from the "so great a death" in II Cor 1:10. It's the death all men are born into because we are from Adam. This is a spiritual condition. Then we enter a process of working out that salvation through the soul (being saved) until Christ is manifest in the flesh (full salvation or "yet to be saved"), the redemption of our bodies.

The death mankind is born into is physical. We are born mortal because of Adam. We die because of Adam. Christ overcame that physical death by His resurrection. His resurrection was not a spiritual thing, but a physical resurrection. There is absolutely nothing is scripture that every portrays it as a spiritual event.

The spiritual union is the saving of ones soul. Christ did not save your soul on the Cross but restored mankind to life, so that man could have union with God that would be eternal. All of mankind will live eternally.

Your right that their are only two deaths to be resurrected from, the spirit and the body. But don't forget water baptism and the circumcision of the heart were the old stony heart is removed and a new heart of flesh is provided so we can walk in the newness of life and work out our salvation ( Ez 36:26, Col 2:11-13, and Rom 6:4-9). God bless, Greg.

Baptism is the renewal of our union with God. It is entering into His Kingdom, the salvation of ones soul. It is a journey, it is a working out of our salvation.

[larryt]

You are right about one thing, this is where we differ. You believe in a works salvation. I believe that Jesus did everything and I can do nothing apart from Him. This is where YOU misunderstand the gift of God, and where YOU are confused. Adam WAS created to live forever. He needed no salvation before the fall. Adam had perfect fellowship with God until the fall.

You are correct that Adam was created to be eternal, but he was not created eternal. If he was, it would have been impossible to fall.

You misunderstand the fall and the whole of creation. If Adam had not sinned he would have lived forever. And don't reinterpret what I said to fit your ideas about theology. I said

Adam WAS created to live forever. He needed no salvation before the fall.

That is not the same as saying

Adam was created to be eternal

Man cannot change his status from immortal to mortal. God in the Garden even aludes to the fact that Adam was barred from the tree of life AFTER the fall, lest he eat thereof and man in his mortal state of fallenness would have been eternal.

It was because Adam had sinned and was corrupt that God bared him from the Tree of Life. God didn't want corruption to live forever.

However, the Bible clearly indicates man fell. That punishment was death. This precludes anything for which man was created, life, and life in God. Death is the separation of body and soul, the end of the human being as he was created to be. Gen 3:19.

Death is the separation of the spirit and soul from the body. The spirit and soul have existence and conscience after being separated. When Adam sinned his spirit was separated from God and was therefore dead. His spirit did not cease to exist.

Thus man cannot give himself life, which is why Christ was needed to do what man could not do.

Man has no contribution to the work of Christ. He cannot even deny it any more than one can deny their physical birth.

However, as a human being created in God's Image you were created for a purpose. That purpose was to work with God in this created order. It is why we exist as human beings and why human beings, bearing God's Image were also saved from destruction.

Not everyone is saved from destruction.

The Gift is the salvation of man. He offers it to you by faith since you cannot work for it. But once entered into a covenantal relationship you are in the very same position as Adam. He had a commandment and so do you.

You are both denying the creation and purpose of man's existence and that God has placed a commandment in front of you for your eternal choice.

That is why the Church, historical Christianity has differed and will always differ from man who simply attempts to interpret for himself. The Gospel is universal, not a private thing. It was once given, for all, for all time until His coming again.

And I have the Spirit of God in me teaching me all things.

The only thing you have shown is I do not accept your personal opinion of salvation.

It is not my personal opinion. It is what the scriptures say and the Spirit teaches me. The only thing you have shown me is that you pick and chose which scriptures to believe and which to ignore.

God did not leave it up to me so save my soul but to work OUT the salvation of my soul.

kinda redundant. But precisely. So why not state it that way then. This whole statement denies OSAS.

Not the same thing at all. I said it that way because it means just what it says. I have salvation and that salvation needs to permeate my whole life. It absolutely supports OSAS. see the next verse. It is not me that is working it is the Holy Spirit that is working in me to conform me to Christ.

He that began a good work in me WILL complete it. HE WILL COMPLETE IT. I did not enter but He brought me in to the Kingdom. And my new man CANNOT sin because His seed REMAINS IN ME.

Could you cite any texts that actually say Christ brought you into the Kingdom? I know of none.

Col 1:12

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

You misunderstand the fall and the whole of creation. If Adam had not sinned he would have lived forever. And don't reinterpret what I said to fit your ideas about theology. I said

Adam WAS created to live forever. He needed no salvation before the fall. That is not the same as saying Adam was created to be eternal

Where is your evidence that I don't understand?

You are correct in that IF Adam had not sinned he would have become immortal. He could not have been immortal before the fall. Can you support your view with scripture or even rational theology?

the fact that He was working with God in this created universe means he was working for his eternal immortality. But he fell, became mortal. Christ is the ONLY one who can give man life, He is the creator of life and He is the one who rose from the dead, to give mankind life. Physical life. I don't see any texts here that says it was a spiritual resurrection.

It was because Adam had sinned and was corrupt that God bared him from the Tree of Life. God didn't want corruption to live forever.

Now, you seem to understand finally. It also shows that he was not immortal before.

Death is the separation of the spirit and soul from the body. The spirit and soul have existence and conscience after being separated. When Adam sinned his spirit was separated from God and was therefore dead. His spirit did not cease to exist.

They have existance ONLY because of Christ. Christ is life, He is the life of the World and the Life of mankind. Right at the exit to the Garden, God promised Adam a redeemer. One who would correct the fall, the condemnation of death he was going to pass on to all men. God has operated in this universe as if Christ had already come, right at that moment in time. Do you think that God might have doubted the coming of Christ. Do you think that God needed to wait until it was fulfilled to prove that He could save Mankind?

Yes, Adam became dead, mortal. We are born dead - mortal. If not for Christ we would simply have vanished into dust. Gen 3:16.

Not everyone is saved from destruction.

Can you support that with Scripture. I know of no one that was not subject to death and I know no one that will not be raised on the last day. Christ is indeed the victor over death, not a half victor, or only saved some from the fall. He totally conquered Satan and the power of death.

And I have the Spirit of God in me teaching me all things.

And so says every other man with the same idea. Thus we have multitude of faiths, of beliefs, of many and sundry understandings. all man-made. Why would the Holy Spirit need to give you more? He gave ALL Truth to the Apostles 2000 years ago. All means all, right, not some, or tidbits all through history. First century Christians have the same Gospel as we have today. They are saved the same way we are. Man has not changed that Gospel for 2000 years, but not for the lack of trying.

It is not my personal opinion. It is what the scriptures say and the Spirit teaches me.

Like all the others. Is the Holy Spirit confused. Is He actually divided, or are there hundreds of ways to Christ? Scripture has no authority of itself. It is the interpreter that possesses that authority. It is either you or Christ. Who do you really think has that authority?

The only thing you have shown me is that you pick and chose which scriptures to believe and which to ignore.

Based solely on your own interpretation. Which we know has no force whatsoever. However, the power of the Holy Spirit is witnessed throughout history that the Gospel has not changed. OSAS has never been a doctrine of the Church, the Gospel once given.

Not the same thing at all. I said it that way because it means just what it says. I have salvation and that salvation needs to permeate my whole life. It absolutely supports OSAS. see the next verse. It is not me that is working it is the Holy Spirit that is working in me to conform me to Christ.

But only as long as you remain faithful. God does not through pearls to swine. Those that reject or leave the fold also forfeit that inheritance promised to those that are and remain faithful. A total denial of OSAS.

Col 1:12

Edited August 26, 2007 by Thaddaeus

[Guest Greg Davies]

Greg Davies,

I agree in principle. When we receive Jesus and are saved, it is spiritual rebirth (born of the Spirit) from the "so great a death" in II Cor 1:10. It's the death all men are born into because we are from Adam. This is a spiritual condition. Then we enter a process of working out that salvation through the soul (being saved) until Christ is manifest in the flesh (full salvation or "yet to be saved"), the redemption of our bodies.

The death mankind is born into is physical. We are born mortal because of Adam. We die because of Adam. Christ overcame that physical death by His resurrection. His resurrection was not a spiritual thing, but a physical resurrection. There is absolutely nothing is scripture that every portrays it as a spiritual event.

The spiritual union is the saving of ones soul. Christ did not save your soul on the Cross but restored mankind to life, so that man could have union with God that would be eternal. All of mankind will live eternally.

Your right that their are only two deaths to be resurrected from, the spirit and the body. But don't forget water baptism and the circumcision of the heart were the old stony heart is removed and a new heart of flesh is provided so we can walk in the newness of life and work out our salvation ( Ez 36:26, Col 2:11-13, and Rom 6:4-9). God bless, Greg.

Baptism is the renewal of our union with God. It is entering into His Kingdom, the salvation of ones soul. It is a journey, it is a working out of our salvation.

So, in essence, you are agreeing with me on water baptism, it would seem. Wow!

As far as the resurection not being spiritual as well ultimately as physical reality, read John 3:6 in conjunction with Prov. 20:27 and Ps. 18:28 and see if that doesn't change your perspective.

Also, I read I Cor. 1:10 in other traslations and I do think I have taken it out of context. It has more to do with the perils Paul was going through. Sorry. But, I find plenty of Bible to verify the fact that our salvation begins in the spirit, is worked out in the soul, and finally manifested in the body. God bless, Greg.

[Guest jman]

I would say,

Forget about what you have read, what you have been told and dare to trust what you really believe about your God. Once you have accepted his gift of forgiveness, would he he turn his back on you?

[Thaddaeus]

Greg Davies,

As far as the resurection not being spiritual as well ultimately as physical reality, read John 3:6 in conjunction with Prov. 20:27 and Ps. 18:28 and see if that doesn't change your perspective.

the resurrection is all physical. There is no spiritual quality about it. The texts you posted above all deal with the spiritual aspect of man. The Spirit of God enlightening man. This includes John 3:6 which is the story of Nicodemus.

When you say, ultimately reality, that is true. It is a promise of fulfillment, that is the hope which we have that the resurrection will occur in the last day. That promise was made way back in the Garden already to Adam. Christ fulfilled the first Advent and overcame death by His resurrection which also raised our human natures from mortal to immortal which occurs in the eschotan.

Also, I read I Cor. 1:10 in other traslations and I do think I have taken it out of context. It has more to do with the perils Paul was going through. Sorry. But, I find plenty of Bible to verify the fact that our salvation begins in the spirit, is worked out in the soul, and finally manifested in the body. God bless, Greg.

I Cor 1:10 aligns with the Prov 20:27 verse dealing with the Holy Spirit in working in man with his spirit.

But relative to our salvation there are only two aspects. Christ overcame the fall for man. Overcame the judgement of death, which is a physical restoration. He also atoned for the sins of the world so that as High Priest He can forgive the sins of those who confess and seek forgiveness. The other aspect is the salvation of our souls. The spiritual aspect of man. This is done by faith and entering into His Kingdom, a spiritual relationship with Him. This is a mutually synergistic cooperative work between man and God in this life. If we are faithful we shall inherit the promise at the end. I Pet 1:4-5.