Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Ovedya]

I see. So then Jesus simply did not specify that we could "walk away from our salvation."

Then should I assume that Jesus was either being deceptive or simply vague concerning salvation?

Because He did say, "they shall by no means perish." If my "walking away" becomes a means by which I will perish, then I am making the Lord Jesus a liar.

Am I not?

Is the sacrifice of Christ beholden to my incapacity to keep from sin?

You simply are only accepting PART of the information, and therefore partial truth, in this matter.

Ive seen OSASers try to dismiss and REinterpret the warnings against falling away in Gods word. That is what you seem to be doing as well.

False or untrue warnings are lies...nothing more or less.

"losing' ones salvation is what Christ teaches against.

We cannot 'lose' our salvation like we lose our car keys.

The warnings against falling away arent directed at all those things that cannot pluck us our of His hands but as US directly....WE are the ones who might apostate ourselves.

Some of you ask why Jesus didnt state things conditionally, but I submit that His word DOES do just that in passages like this one...

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Enduring makes the statement conditional...as are the warnings in Hebrews that are in complete agreement with this thought that WE must individually 'endure' to be saved.

The verses does not pertain to eternal salvation, but salvation from persecution. Context, remember?

That "salvation" differs from the type as described in Eph. 2:8, which is "not of ourselves."

How is it that not a single person yet in this thread has been able to address Jesus' statements concerning salvation directly? Was He wrong? Mitaken? Was He lying? Is salvation not eternal in nature? Is there a "loophole" in Scriptures?

[Ovedya]

The verses does not pertain to eternal salvation, but salvation from persecution. Context, remember?

You are erroneous, friend.

The context is FALLING AWAY from CHRIST during these persecutions and thus from salvation.

I suggest you read that passage then take a look at its sister passage in Hebrews 6 and 10.

"shall be saved' there means just what it says. Those who endure, who do not apostate and fall away from Him, in the end will be saved.

I figured you would simply try to REinterpret the passage to fit your views instead of trying harmonize it with the other warnings.

A false warning is a LIE !

No.

The context is persecution in the spreading of the Gospel!

"But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And as you go, proclaim, saying, The akingdom of the heavens has 1drawn near.

Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Do not acquire for yourselves gold nor silver nor copper for your belts;

No bag for the journey nor two tunics nor sandals nor a staff; for the worker is worthy of his food.

And into whatever city or village you enter, find out who in it is worthy; and there remain until you depart.

And as you enter into the house, greet it.

And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you.

And whoever does not receive you nor hear your words, as you go out of that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.

Truly I say to you, It will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Behold, I send you forth as asheep in the midst of bwolves. Be therefore 1prudent as cserpents and guileless as ddoves.

And beware of men, for they will deliver you up to sanhedrins, and in their synagogues they will scourge you.

And you will also be brought before governors and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.

But when they deliver you up, do not be anxious about how or what you should speak, for it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak;

For you are not the ones speaking, but the Spirit of your Father is the One speaking in you.

And brother will deliver up brother to death, and father his child; and children will rise up against their parents and put them to death.

And you will be hated by all because of My name. But he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved.

And when they persecute you in this city, flee into another. For truly I say to you, You shall by no means finish the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."

(Matthew 10:16-23)

[Ovedya]

How is it that not a single person yet in this thread has been able to address Jesus' statements concerning salvation directly?

Why is it that when a OSASer asks this question they arent really looking for a response?

You want proof from YOUR passages but you REJECT the rest of the information provided for you as I just gave you.

What do you think about the warnings against falling away in Hebrews 6 and 10?

Are they in agreement with the passage I gave you or not?

Do you distort them to make them 'hypothetical' ?

If so, then you are saying Paul lied because the 'warnings' arent really warnings at all but myth entirely.

Was He wrong? Mitaken? Was He lying? Is salvation not eternal in nature? Is there a "loophole" in Scriptures?

We need to ask the same of you, friend, since you just change whatever you dont want to believe.

Was paul lying...was he wasting paper and time ADDING lies about FALSE warnings against falling away to Gods word entrusted to him?

it seem you are the one presenting a loophole in this by rejecting the warnings presented in scripture against falling away.

Still not addressed, FoC. And the context of Hebrews 6 and 10 is the sacrifices for sins. There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins to return to, because Christ is the eternal sacrifice. How many times will you lay Him on the altar and shame His blood by returning to the beginning?

"And yet have fallen away, to renew themselves again unto repentance, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God and putting Him to open shame." (Heb. 6:6)

[Ovedya]

You can only hide so long from the truth, poster.

Before I respond to you any further, FoC, I want to clear something up.

I will not tolerate veiled insults in any discussion or debate. Do not imply or state that I am "hiding" from the truth because we happen to be on opposite sides doctrinally here. It implies that I am afraid of something. I am not afraid of anything, especially the truth. Second, you know my username, please use it. It appears to me that when you get flustered you begin using "poster" instead of users nicknames. It's a courtesy thing, you know?

I'll get back to you a little later, after you've cooled off.

[spiritman]

For those who make or think statements like that was quoted above, please understand that we don't lose our salvation for committing one sin. We lose it for not repenting of our sins.

Say I become a Christian and after awhile of attending my church I find a nice girl in the congregation and we start seeing each other and eventually we start living in fornication. If Christ comes back and finds me living in that sin will I make it to heaven? According to scripture I won't.

Ah, I get it, it's so simple! So that means if I lie about something, like, someone asks how I'm doing and I say "fine" when I'm not doing fine, and all of a sudden Jesus comes back, I'll go to hell because I haven't repented! It all makes so much sense! Thank you for clearing it all up!

As for not knowing scripture...I really need to get my money back for studying Greek and hermeneutics. What a waste of money when you showed it was so simple!

Apothanein, Hermeneutics, and , Exegesis are excellent study tools, when used correctly; sometimes I use them myself. but there are several questions on my mind perhaps you can answer them for me.

1. You mentioned earlier about having sex with a girl. So my question is, What do you do if this really happens, how do you handle it? Do you just forget about it, and go on with your life without one thought about it, and say " Oh well, I'm saved, I don't have anything to worry about"?

2. Do you view Christianity as Hell insurance? if so now that I'm saved I can finally go and smack that dude up side the head, the one who keeps on harrassing me right?

3. If this is the case, all one has to do is go to a chruch, confess thier sins, and tell Jesus he is the Lord. Then go back out on the street and live like the devil, is this what you're saying?

4. Does this mean that Christianity is a free for all??

Thanks in advance Spiritman

[spiritman]

"As becometh saints" means Christians. This is just one of the lists that we are given of sins that will keep us out of heaven. If I die not repenting of these sins or Christ comes back to find I have not repented of these sins then I won't go to heaven.

As Christians our names are written in the Book of Life. If I choose to hold onto my sins and not overcome them then my name will be taken out.

If I don't overcome my sins my name will be taken out -

If on judgment day my name is not in the Book of Life I will be cast into the lake of fire.

Okay. So in your view unconfessed sins or the incapacity to overcome sins are both means by which Christians can perish in the lake of fire.

How then do you deal with what the Lord Jesus said about all those who believe into Him?

"And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28, cf. 3:16)

That is true as long as we are in the grace of God, but I can take myself right out of that grace by returning to the world of sin I was saved from.

Instead of compiling all the scriptures together to get a clear understanding people are basing their beliefs off of just a few choice scriptures. When this is done it creates contradictions of the gospel.

Outside of what you just said we do have scriptures that say that Christians can go to hell for unrepented sins just like sinners will. I keep repeating this scripture and it keeps getting ignored -

Ephesians 5:3-6 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

This is spoke of Christians to Christians.

But the Lord Jesus applied absolutely no conditions to His statement at all.

So how is it that you find a conditional salvation, where Jesus did not frame it as such?

And if all the Scriptures are God-breathed, and do not contradict one another, then what difference should it make if I use one or ten?

Shalom Ovedya,

I know you weren't addressing me here , but may I jump in?

Yes, Jesus does apply conditions to His statement about eternal life and he does that in answer to your 3rd question.

The Scriptures are all G-d-breathed, we agree on that, but the context is everything concerning how to understand what is being said and to whom. So, we use the Bible and the context of the verses to support itself. The Scriptures do NOT contradict themselves and that is why Once Saved Always Saved is not supported throughout the Scriptures (to my understanding of the Scriptures). The theme of obedience is supported throughout the Scriptures as well as faith and choice.

So, salvation IS conditional and it is only our choice whether we decide to abide in Jesus and remain saved.

Can we look at the Scripture that is being referred to?

John 10: 25

22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

This is exactly the truth. No one and nothing is able to take away our salvation if we choose to remain in Jesus.

We cannot "lose" our salvation.

We can however, turn from it and reject it.

The Scripture above refers to the fact that no one can take our salvation. Plainly and simply. The statement does not negate the conditions found elsewhere that we must abide in Jesus to remain saved. So, there is no contradiction.

But, again, it does matter when using verses out of context because the meaning is different.

Vick,

I'm not sure that I've every read any other of your posts on here before but; Way to go!!!!, this is a good post, that's exactly what I've been trying to say, and you said it so well; thank you, and Shalom

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Ovedya,

I know you weren't addressing me here , but may I jump in?

Yes, Jesus does apply conditions to His statement about eternal life and he does that in answer to your 3rd question.

The Scriptures are all G-d-breathed, we agree on that, but the context is everything concerning how to understand what is being said and to whom. So, we use the Bible and the context of the verses to support itself. The Scriptures do NOT contradict themselves and that is why Once Saved Always Saved is not supported throughout the Scriptures (to my understanding of the Scriptures). The theme of obedience is supported throughout the Scriptures as well as faith and choice.

So, salvation IS conditional and it is only our choice whether we decide to abide in Jesus and remain saved.

Can we look at the Scripture that is being referred to?

John 10: 25

22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

This is exactly the truth. No one and nothing is able to take away our salvation if we choose to remain in Jesus.

We cannot "lose" our salvation.

We can however, turn from it and reject it.

The Scripture above refers to the fact that no one can take our salvation. Plainly and simply. The statement does not negate the conditions found elsewhere that we must abide in Jesus to remain saved. So, there is no contradiction.

But, again, it does matter when using verses out of context because the meaning is different.

I see. So then Jesus simply did not specify that we could "walk away from our salvation."

Then should I assume that Jesus was either being deceptive or simply vague concerning salvation?

Because He did say, "they shall by no means perish." If my "walking away" becomes a means by which I will perish, then I am making the Lord Jesus a liar.

Am I not?

Is the sacrifice of Christ beholden to my incapacity to keep from sin?

Shalom Ovedya,

In answer to your first question;

No, not in this one particular passage. However, there are plenty of others that do say that.

In answer to your second question;

No, neither. You can assume it if you like, but it's far from the truth. And I'm very sure that you know very well that our holy L-rd Jesus is neither deceptive or vague. Can we please discuss this with grace even though we disagree? I am new to this board, but I am hoping that discussions can stay respectful, even with differing views.

In answer to your third question;

No, you are not according to my understanding of Scriptures. As I said, in this particular verse, reading in it context, Jesus is saying that we will not perish by someone snatching us from His Hand. In this particular verse, He is not addressing our choice to walk away from our salvation, but as I said, in other places He does. I'm sure those Scriptures have been posted previously, since this topic has 111 pages.

In answer to your fourth question;

No, the sacrifice of Jesus is not "beholden" to anyone or anything. However, it is only applicable to our life, if we accept it and abide in it. If we walk away from salvation, our choice does not diminish Jesus' sacrifice, it simply means we refuse it for our life.

[apothanein kerdos]

You and AK are looking for depths of scriptures that don't exist. According to your understanding you want Greek, history, and proper exegesis on a Stop sign. A lot of these verse are not as deep as you think they are. How many people take these verses at "prima facie" without Greek, history, and proper exegesis?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

There are many, many people that have Eph exegesis wrong. I have given before the correct understanding on these verses as well as many of the ones that I have made "Lists" of. I did not want to take up a lot of room tyoing out understanding to scriptures that almost everybody else already knows. You probably have a problem with this, that others don't, because it is not what you want or what you are looking for.

You two are so hung up on Hosea, which is the Old Testement, that you are missing a much bigger picture. Yes, I have given "Lists" of scriptures, but they are all to prove the same points. many religeous people today base their faith in the scriptures in John 3:16 and Eph. 2:8,9 and ignore all the other scriptures that I have "Listed".

What is really dangerous is when people rely on the methods that you and AK use to interpret the scriptures. You can dig so deep and expect so much that you lose sight of what the gospel is all about.

I don't use other means of interpretation of the scriptures. I really on study and my God for understanding. I apply and use ALL of the scriptures. That is why I have listed so many of them. There is so much in the bible that people don't know is in there. We have seen so many people give their opions on what they think the bible says without proof, but I have backed all of my proof with scripture and I am sorry it it is not good enough for you. There are others here that are getting what you are missing. I know what I am saying and they know what I am saying.

It would have been much easier if you just said, "I've never taken the time to learn proper hermeneutics" instead of trying to bash something you've never studied.

Essentially, all you said in all of that was:

1) You disagree, on no reasonable ground of course, on using Greek, Hebrew, history, and context (most cult leaders would agree with you)

2) You tell us not to look to Hosea and the Old Testament...interesting...

3) You say that scripture is basically simple, and doesn't need to be looked at in depth...thus God is a little child who is easily understood

Apothanein, Hermeneutics, and , Exegesis are excellent study tools, when used correctly; sometimes I use them myself. but there are several questions on my mind perhaps you can answer them for me.

1. You mentioned earlier about having sex with a girl. So my question is, What do you do if this really happens, how do you handle it? Do you just forget about it, and go on with your life without one thought about it, and say " Oh well, I'm saved, I don't have anything to worry about"?

Whoa mate, I never said that. I was bringing up a hypothetical, that say a new Christian who accepted Christ didn't know it was a sin to do so, would he go to hell for committing this sin post-salvation?

2. Do you view Christianity as Hell insurance? if so now that I'm saved I can finally go and smack that dude up side the head, the one who keeps on harrassing me right?

No, I never said that salvation was "hell insurance." If anything, those that deny eternal security often fall into the same trap they accuse us of. It makes salvation hang by a thread - you say a prayer, you're saved, then you have to work as hard as you can to maintain that salvation.

Instead, I view salvation as a loving covenant. No woman marries a man and then simply ceases to shower and take care of herself simply because she is now in a secure relationship. Instead, she still keeps up her appearance. The reason is that when we accept Christ, it is not a matter of "being saved from hell." I hardly ever use that when witnessing, instead, I focus on the relational aspect of Christianity. Salvation is entering into an eternal covenant, in which we will do good works in order to please God, not to meet some arbitrary quota so we don't lose our salvation. If a person accepts Christ thinking they can then go commit all the sins they want, then they never accepted Christ. One must understand what he is getting into upon experiencing Christ, and understand that we are entering into a covenant of sanctification in which Christ will change us, eternally.

3. If this is the case, all one has to do is go to a chruch, confess thier sins, and tell Jesus he is the Lord. Then go back out on the street and live like the devil, is this what you're saying?

Nope, not even close. This is simply a straw man of what I believe.

4. Does this mean that Christianity is a free for all??

It means it is a gift available to all, but few to none will choose it because of the covenant one must enter into.

[Vickilynn]

By the way, I'd like to add that the repeated statement, "We cannot "lose" our salvation, but we can walk away from it" is just semantics in terms of the end result.

Shalom Ovedya,

I absolutely disagree. This is not the same thing at all.

At the very essence of the difference is the culpability of the Believer.

We cannot lose our salvation -as in it being taken away from from us, by G-d or by satan.

We can however, reject it.

There is a huge difference.

Whether God "takes away" our salvation, or we "walk away" from it, the end result is the same: lost salvation.

Absolutely not. G-d does not take away our salvation. Nor can it be taken from us by anyone else.

But, we can reject it. The difference is like night and day.

So let's avoid the splitting of hairs, okay?

There is no "splitting of hairs" here, it is Biblical interpretation and understanding. Mine is a valid as yours, except that mine is different than yours.

If you are arguing that you can "walk away" from salvation, then essentially you are also arguing that salvation can be lost.

Absolutely not. If that is your understanding of what I posted, then you have misunderstood. Salvation cannot be lost or taken away, but it can be rejected by a Believer's choice. This is the crux of the debate and it is valid.

Now, I would like to introduce the following argument against OSNAS:

Boiling it down to its very essence, saying that salvation can be lost (or "walked away from, if you prefer it for conscience sake) places control over salvation on the believer alone.

Again, you cannot mix the two. Salvation cannot be lost, but it can be rejected.

In other words, God gave Christ, Christ became the author and perfecter of salvation, and Christ reliquished entire control over the efficacy of His blood to the believer who is still flawed enough to be disobedient to God.

So God, the initiator, author, and perfector of salvation, has absolutely no control over what the believer does or does not do with the gift that He freely gave to his creation. Therefore, God cannot truly be God, because He has become beholden to His creation in terms of salvation. He is no longer omnipotent, because He has reliquished the power of salvation - the salvation which authored and offered freely - to his creation.

No. The conclusion is not correct as is the assumption that this is what the NOSAS beliefs are.

G-d gave Messiah Jesus, who died for ALL MEN , that is for all who accept His salvation.

To those who do accept His salvation, we must abide in Jesus to abide in salvation.

If we choose to reject Him, we turn our backs on our salvation.

that does not mean G-d is not G-d. He IS G-d and His power cannot be diminished. I either choose to accept or reject it. His power is still there for anyone who chooses to accept it.

The difference is, I believe G-d gives His creation choice. Not power, but choice. Big difference.

Edited February 17, 2007 by Vickilynn

[spiritman]

Apothanein said " [[if a person accepts Christ thinking they can then go commit all the sins they want, then they never accepted Christ. One must understand what he is getting into upon experiencing Christ, and understand that we are entering into a covenant of sanctification in which Christ will change us, eternally.

First I'd like to make a comment, then I have another question. I used to go to a church where I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior, The teachings there however were false.

They taught that you could do what you wanted and still be saved. for example the asst pastor was cheating on his wife. Now for years I believed this same thing, and did what ever I pleased and still believed I was saved. As a matter of fact, even then I felt the Lord guiding me to where I need to be. I believe this to be Sanctification.

I don't believe the Lord faulted me for the false teachings I had received, but He gently has brought me unto the correct course. Now for the questions:

1. Do you believe at that time I was saved?

2. If not what was this guiding force leading me in the right direction

3. Does the definition of Sanctification match your statement highlighted in red above? I have alread posted the definition for you.

sanctification

One entry found for sanctification. Merriam websters online dictionary

Main Entry: sanc