Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Guest lnj]

Peter denied knowing Jesus to save his skin at that moment but did not reject Christ as his Savior.

As we see further in the NT Peter did amazing things in the name of God.

A rejection of Christ is the disowning completely of Him in every area of your life.

Turning your back on Him and willingly walking away.

[Vickilynn]

Anyway, I wouldn't want to worship a God that is that weak that he cannot keep me safe in a salvation he offered me.

God is not the weak one, we are.

Isaiah 59:1-2 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

God's hand is always there for us to be saved, but when I choose to leave him to go back into the world or if I live a lukewarm Christianity then I am not worthy of God.

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Nobody is limiting God. God will try with all his might to to get us to repent. The point people are trying to make is that if I choose my sin over repenting of them then I will lose what was promised to me. I'm the one that does it, not God.

We are not talking about committing one sin, we are talking about keeping sin in our lives we refuse to repent of or if we just one day get up and walk out on God.

Also, nobody in this world can tell a Christian has not been saved. Only God knows that. We know that Christians can lose their salvation by the many scriptures that have already been given. Read also Revelation chapters 1-3 about the 7 churches told to repent or else.

God doesn't just up and take away our salvation just because, nor can man take it away from us. We lose it when I choose rather to serve sin than God. Christians can sin and when they refuse to repent from them their end is no different from a sinners.

2 Corinthians 5:9-11 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

All of mankind will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to answer for the good and bad we did in this life.

Matthew 25:31-33 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

This is the same account of judgment. All the world will appear before Christ to answer for what we did in this life and he will separate mankind into two camps - sheeps and goats.

To the sheep he says this -

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

And to the goats he says this -

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The question is, on judgment day what will Christ classify me as, a sheep or a goat?

We already know what constitues one being classifed as a goat - sin, but what classifies one as being a sheep? We know that sheep are the ones who are going to heaven -

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

If we combine them together we can see that those who are going to heaven are those who do the will of God, but what is the will of God?

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This is the will of God. When we present our bodies as a living sacrifice we are doing as Christ asked in deying our lives for his sake. Being not conformed to this world is that we no longer have lives filled with sin like the world does. Being transformed by the renewing of our minds is that now instead of having a mind for sin we have a mind for serving Christ like this -

Romans 8:5-8 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

We put away our carnal minds for a spirtual mind.

Now, since all of this is the will of God we know that it will take awhile to do it. That is why we have God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit to help us. This is the work spoke of in James. When I repent of my old sins and put on righteousness I am working. These are our works to back up our faith and this is where our faith lies -

Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Our faith is in the fact that after I do the will of God I will recieve the promise. And the promise is -

1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

We have been saved by grace through faith, but we are also commanded to do the will of God. These are not my words, they are God's. So, even though I can step through the door of salvation because of my faith I can lose it for not doing God's will.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

This verse is spoke to Christians. Repentance is a very key issue even to Christians. When we die, or if Christ comes back, and there is sin in my life that I have refused to let go of or if I have walked out on Christianity to go back to my I will wind up in hell like the sinners.

Hebrews 10:28-31 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This is speaking of a saved Christian who truned his back on God and Christianity. The Lord will judge his people. Will he find us repenting or living in our sins?

It is a fearful thing to fall into hands of God because he can cast both body and soul into hell.

Shalom Cardcaptor,

This is a most excellent post! Very appreciated, thank you!

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

Consider this Scripture:

1 Timothy 4

Some Will Depart from the Faith

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

The Scriptures say clearly and plainly that some will depart from the faith, that means they are Christians and leave their faith in Messiah by accepting lies of the enemy.

This states clearly that people CAN and WILL fall away.

Edited February 19, 2007 by Vickilynn

[Thaddaeus]

Beloved 57,

This issue has nothing to do with the denying of christ as it pertains to false doctrines as to who christ is and what he accomplished on the cross, and for whom he accomplished it for and why.

This type of denying christ peter never did !

1 jn 2 22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Being that false teaching is only ONE of many ways to deny Christ, you are correct in that is not what Peter did. But He did do exactly what you then say in your very next statment:

1 jn 2 22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

So, in your view, then I would need to say that Peter was the antichrist. It is precisely what Peter did. As others have already mentioned, the key to Peter is that He repented. That is the failure of Judas. That is the failure of many Christians. They get so lazy and careless in their living the life IN Christ, that they have slipped unknowingly out of Christ.

I might also note that speaking of false teachers, Paul warned against both kinds, those outside the Body and those from within. He places most of his emphasis on the internal ones. Having said that 2000 years ago, history has proven Paul very accurate. Most, if not all, false teachings have come from within the Church, the Body of Christ. The whole argument relative to losing faith or salvation is quite moot when one looks at history. Your argument is made in a vaccum and overlooks reality.

[Ovedya]

In answer to your third question;

No, you are not according to my understanding of Scriptures. As I said, in this particular verse, reading in it context, Jesus is saying that we will not perish by someone snatching us from His Hand. In this particular verse, He is not addressing our choice to walk away from our salvation, but as I said, in other places He does. I'm sure those Scriptures have been posted previously, since this topic has 111 pages.

Actually the Lord addresses two types of followers: Those that are truly His followers and those that are not truly His followers. Nowhere that I have read in the Gospels did Jesus ever say that a believer can "walk away" from salvation.

In answer to your fourth question;

No, the sacrifice of Jesus is not "beholden" to anyone or anything. However, it is only applicable to our life, if we accept it and abide in it. If we walk away from salvation, our choice does not diminish Jesus' sacrifice, it simply means we refuse it for our life.

Oh, but you just contradicted yourself by saying that "choice" is the thing that the sacrifice of Jesus is beholden to. Our "choice" to "walk away from salvation" is more powerful than the blood of Christ to save us despite ourselves. So the sacrifice of Christ must be weak.

[Ovedya]

By the way, I'd like to add that the repeated statement, "We cannot "lose" our salvation, but we can walk away from it" is just semantics in terms of the end result.

Shalom Ovedya,

I absolutely disagree. This is not the same thing at all.

At the very essence of the difference is the culpability of the Believer.

We cannot lose our salvation -as in it being taken away from from us, by G-d or by satan.

We can however, reject it.

There is a huge difference.

How so, if the end result is the same? If the believer "walks away" or rejects salvation after having already been redeemed by the blood of Christ, the Triune God no longer abides within the believer. The Triune God must then have to leave the believer's spirit at some point in the process of his rejecting Him.

Yet nowhere, nowhere in the entire canon of the Bible does it say that the Triune God at any point leaves the spirit of the believer. In fact, on the contrary, the Bible asserts that the indwelling of the Triune God is once and for all - for all eternity.

Whether God "takes away" our salvation, or we "walk away" from it, the end result is the same: lost salvation.

Absolutely not. G-d does not take away our salvation. Nor can it be taken from us by anyone else.

But, we can reject it. The difference is like night and day.

If the end result of two things is the same then there is no significance at all to the process by which that result is achieved.

If you are arguing that you can "walk away" from salvation, then essentially you are also arguing that salvation can be lost.

Absolutely not. If that is your understanding of what I posted, then you have misunderstood. Salvation cannot be lost or taken away, but it can be rejected by a Believer's choice. This is the crux of the debate and it is valid.

[Ovedya]

Question for the thread: The elements of the Passover are as follows:

1) An unblemished sheep. A sheep without spot or blemish that has been examined for three days.

2) The slaughtering of that sheep - one per household - and the painting of that sheep's blood on the doorposts and lintel of the house.

3) The eating of that sheep in haste, with sandals on feet and staff in hand, with unleavened bread.

4) At an appointed time the angel of death would come and "pass over" every house that had the sheep's blood on the dooreposts and lintel.

The result of the passover was the releasing of God's people from the bondage of Egypt and their leaving Egypt in victory.

If the Passover in type represents Christ in the shedding of His blood, why then is there no mention of lost salvation? Christ fulfilled each and every item of the Passover. He was examined for three days and found without flaw. He was slaughtered, and His blood shed upon the cross (Representing a doorpost and lintel: A doorpost is vertical and the lintel is horizontal). After the shedding of His blood, all those that believe into Christ partake of Him as their life and their life supply, represented by the eating of the Lamb (cf. John 6:54). Finally, we should expect that Christ, as the reality of the Passover should save us from the angel of death - which in reality is the finality of death.

The Passover was sufficient for the children of Israel to leave Egypt and achieve the victory of their release from bondage. So also, the blood of Christ is sufficient for complete eternal salvation.

How then can anyone add to the Passover?

[Thaddaeus]

Ovedya,

Actually the Lord addresses two types of followers: Those that are truly His followers and those that are not truly His followers. Nowhere that I have read in the Gospels did Jesus ever say that a believer can "walk away" from salvation.

First, I know of only two groups, in total, in scripture relative salvation. They are believer and unbeliever. There is no gray area,. not in between. you either are or you are not.

Those you refer to as "not truly His followers" I would need to assume you actually mean unbelievers. If you are a follower of any kind, you are still a follower. You can be a weak follower, a new follower, a long term follower, a short term follower, but they are all followers. To say true follower, means absolutely nothing. All are true followers until they show otherwise, then they become a follower who has fallen away, no longer a follower, but has actually become an unbeliever. Can an unbeliever still be saved having once been a follower?

You are also correct in that Jesus never, NEVER, stated one can walk away from salvation. What He did say, is that no one has it guaranteed, UNLESS they remain faithful to that first initial faith. He does speak quite a bit on losing faith. Since we are saved THROUGH faith, faith is much more important than salvation. One leads to the other. Without faith, one does not inherit the promise. It is being reserved for you to see if you will be faithful to the end. I Pet 1:4-5.

Oh, but you just contradicted yourself by saying that "choice" is the thing that the sacrifice of Jesus is beholden to. Our "choice" to "walk away from salvation" is more powerful than the blood of Christ to save us despite ourselves. So the sacrifice of Christ must be weak.

First that is not what she stated. You are even paraphrasing her incorrectly. The Work of Christ on the Cross is a finished work. That man is able to choose either to be In Christ or without Christ has no bearing on the gift. The Gift, nor the power of the Gift is not relevant to what man does with that Gift.

The fact of the matter is, that He saved you as He did all of mankind, just so you could walk away or accept Him. That is His mercy, to save all, and justice so that you could determine your eternal fate, with or without Him.

Just a comment also on another post you made in reply to Vicki, you stated a lot of things but at the bottom you stated this:

If God allowed man's choice to have supremacy over the blood of Christ, then God is not God. He is a liar. In fact, the whole point of the blood of Christ is to do what man could never do of his own will or accord.

This was in a discourse where you were trying to make a distinction between God not taking away man's salvation, versus, a believer walking away.

These are two completely different aspects of salvation and this whole topic is not even referencing the Gift itself. OSAS is not about making the gift, the Work of Christ on the Cross. You seem to be conflating these two things.

The fact that walking away, falling away, losing salvation, as in your terminology, losing faith in Scriptures terminology, is all the very same thing. It is man's response to the Gift. It has no bearing on the power, efficacy, the doing the Gift, but only reletive to the offer to mankind. It has nothing to do with having supremacy over the blood of Christ. We cannot change the Gift being offered. By accepting or rejecting does not change the Gift or the Work of Christ, or the power thereof.

[Thaddaeus]

Ovedya,

The Passover was sufficient for the children of Israel to leave Egypt and achieve the victory of their release from bondage. So also, the blood of Christ is sufficient for complete eternal salvation.

How then can anyone add to the Passover?

Cannot, and it has nothing to do with the Gift being offered.

The gift is complete, It did indeed free mankind from the bondage to death. All mankind was saved from the fall, from death. Christ is the victor over the grave. He freed His entire universe from that curse by taking upon Himself that death. He overcame that death so that man could be restored, to be reconciled, to be justified to God. Having been so justified, we an now have union and communion with God and God offers that ability by permitting man to freely make a choice of whether to walk with Him or alone.

Being free to chose to join with Him, we are, in this life, free to depart at any time. God does not compel man to believe. If so, the fall would not even have occured. We are being restored to the pre-fall condition of man, being in God's Image free and communal. The reason to fulfil that created purpose.

[Vickilynn]

Ovedya,

The Passover was sufficient for the children of Israel to leave Egypt and achieve the victory of their release from bondage. So also, the blood of Christ is sufficient for complete eternal salvation.

How then can anyone add to the Passover?

Cannot, and it has nothing to do with the Gift being offered.

The gift is complete, It did indeed free mankind from the bondage to death. All mankind was saved from the fall, from death. Christ is the victor over the grave. He freed His entire universe from that curse by taking upon Himself that death. He overcame that death so that man could be restored, to be reconciled, to be justified to God. Having been so justified, we an now have union and communion with God and God offers that ability by permitting man to freely make a choice of whether to walk with Him or alone.

Being free to chose to join with Him, we are, in this life, free to depart at any time. God does not compel man to believe. If so, the fall would not even have occured. We are being restored to the pre-fall condition of man, being in God's Image free and communal. The reason to fulfil that created purpose.

Shalom Thaddaeus,

These are awesome posts! Thank you, thank you. You answered the questions so completely, I need not add anything.

Edited February 19, 2007 by Vickilynn