Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Kabowd]

Don't have alot of time right now, but I wanted to respond to Openly Curious (I'll be back later when I have more time).

Yes, I have read the story of Hosea and Gomer. As Hosea was a prophet of God as God was using him to speak his words to the nation of Israel through the word picture that was being displayed through his adulterous wife. The story represents the falling away of God's chosen people Israel as they had left God and went back into idolatry. The bottom line they left God and went astray from the relationship they had with God and broke their end of the covenant as they did not keep it with God and was like the adulterous women. God through the prophet Hosea was trying to get them to see what they had done in order for them to realize and come to a place of repentance and return unto Him with all their hearts.

You're missing the most vital point here: Gomer was rebellious and adulterous, Israel was rebellious and adulterous.....but what happened to them? Did God allow them to abandon the covenant? Let me summarize it for you: Gomer (like Israel) openly rejected her husband's faithful love. She rebelled, she gave herself to other lovers. But in the MIDST of her rebellion, Hosea pursued her.

Your view (the rejection of eternal security) is not found in this story. If your view represented God's heart, what should've happened is that Gomer was left to be used up by her other "lovers". She walked away, thus according to your belief, that was her choice and the covenant would've been severed. However, this is not what occured. Instead, what happened was that Hosea went and publicly bought her back. This was his own wife, they had a covenant, by all rights she already belonged to him. And yet, he laid aside his own reputation and faced the humiliation of having to purchase back his own bride, one who had disgraced his name by giving herself to countless others (even baring children to other men). But the beauty of God's grace and redemption does not end there. Not only did Hosea buy her back, he "hedged" her in. He cut off all of her other resources so that she could not escape from his love. Furthermore, he wooed her, as the Scripture says, he spoke to her tenderly. This story alone destroys every argument that has been raised against eternal security, so I'm not surprised that it is often overlooked...or by the fact that when it is addressed, the most vital aspects are conveniently left out

The covenant with Abraham came in a vision. (Genesis 15:1-7). Abraham was awake at this point as the word of the Lord came to him.

Then you find this question from Abraham in Genesis 15:8--wherby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

As God then instructed Abraham in Genesis 15:9-11 to get the sacrificial animals God wanted him to sacrifice and Abraham obeyed and did it as he drove the birds away from taking the pieces that was layed out.

Then in Genesis 15:12 when the sun was going down a deep sleep fell on Abraham and God shared with Abraham in verses 13-16 that his future decendants being the Hebrew children in the text being referred to would spend 400 years in Egyptian bondage and when that time was up God would bring them out with great substance and you can read the book of Exodus that He did just that.

Then you can read where God let Abraham know that he would inherit the promises of this covenant in Genesis 15:17 as God accepted the sacrifice Abraham was instructed to do as the covenant was sealed at that point as a covenant is always sealed by "blood." (Hebrews 9:16-22) All covenants between man and man and between man and God were always "sealed" by a blood sacrifice.

The part I put in bold is the important part

First, it's important to note that it was common practice in the Old Testament for covenants to be sealed by blood. Typically, the way this happened was that animals would be split in two pieces and their blood spilled between the two parts. Then, the two parties who were entering a covenant together would pass between the halves, declaring the vows of the covenant. From what I understand, the division of the animals and the blood spilled was symbolic, essentially meaning that if the covenant was broken, that the condition of the dead animals represented how the parties would end up; torn in two, dead, blood spilled.

Anyway, the significant part of this story, is that Abraham did not participate in this covenant

Remember, he was ASLEEP. God caused Abraham to fall asleep and GOD HIMSELF passed between the animal halves. Many scholars believe that it was God the Father AND God the Son passed between the halves. This is highly important to note regarding the issue of eternal security for several reasons:

1. The New Covenant (in Christ) is the fulfillment of this covenant (with Abraham).

2. Both covenants place the SOLE responsibility on God.

3. Both covenants relied/rely on God's faithfulness, not a set of laws.

4. Both covenants rest on a promise from God.

Now do you see why those of us who adhere to eternal security keep bringing up Hosea and Abraham? These two examples demolish the works-based salvation that many of you are advocating. Oh, no one will admit that it's works-based, but that's essentially what it boils down to. By stating that our disobedience causes the covenant to be broken, it places the responsibility of the covenant on us [our own behavior], rather than placing the responsibility on God [the Author and FINISHER of our faith].

Cardcaptor is educated by the Master and has an understanding beyond text books.

1. Being educated by the Master entails the diligent study of Scripture. This must include studying the historical context, the original language, and understanding to whom each letter was written in order to be properly "educated". God does not educate us by osmosis, it requires effort on our part.

2. "Understanding" involves the ability to properly interpret and apply biblical principles.

3. There should not be a dichotomy between being "educated by the Master" and the use of text books. While the Bible is the ultimate authority, God very often uses extra-biblical sources to educate believers. There are even several scriptures which refer to extra-biblical sources (validating that these can be useful and beneficial to those seeking to grow in wisdom).

Bottom line, anti-intellectualism is not biblical. In fact, the misunderstanding about our reliance on the Holy Spirit in order to understand Scripture has led to a multitude of lazy believers who are unable to properly interpret and apply God's Word, much less defend it. This has also furthered a withdrawal from intellectual studies, while simultaneously perpetuating a form of elitism (and false sense of spiritualism). The basic notion of "I have the Holy Spirit, I don't need anything else!" is not only unbiblical, but this mindset has birthed some of the most grotesque misrepresentations of God this world has ever seen. Monsters such as Hitler, Jim Jones, David Koresh and others invoked the Scriptures to support their unholy agendas. Now it could be argued that none of these people operated under the influence of the Holy Spirit (and certainly didn't represent the Spirit of the biblical principles), however....the point remains that it clearly involves more than a prima facie understanding of Scriptures to properly interpret and apply them.

Personally, I am not a highly educated person (in the academic sense). I do not speak or read Greek or Hebrew, and by many accounts it could be argued that I have a learning disability (due to a medical condition). However, I diligently pursue God and accept the fact that He expects me to love Him with my MIND as much as I love Him with my heart. I don't have a free pass to be lazy in my study of the Word. None of us do. This doesn't mean we all must be biblical scholars, but neither does it mean we are free to shun and discredit those whom God has gifted to teach others. It seems that there are several who believe that having the Holy Spirit gives them an excuse to be intellectually lazy. Even worse, they believe that the Holy Spirit ensures them of supernatural, perfect understanding of the Scriptures....even to the point they reject historical, exegetical, lexical and contextual evidence that says otherwise. This isn't the definition of wisdom, it's the definition of foolishness. We've reached a sad place in modern Christianity when being well-studied and educated in biblical studies is ridiculed and rejected while a lacksidasicle, subjective approach to Scripture is favored and praised.

[matthew4:4]

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Our duty on this earth is to fear God and keep his commandments. This is the will of God.

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Where a Christian will lose their salvation is when they do not live upto these two verses and others like them.

Maybe I am being dense here, but I do not see a statement about salvation, or the loss of it< in the immediate context of the passages you have cited here?

Hello Eric,

Usually what needs to be done to get a clearer understanding is correlating scriptures together. Now, if we look at Romans 12:1,2 we can see what the will of God is. When look this scripture -

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

We can see that those who make it into are those who do the will of God. What happens to the Christians who don't do the will of God?

As I am looking at the Romans 12:1,2 passage and the Matthew 7:21 passage, I am struggling to see on what textual grounds you have made the logical connection.

The Matthew passage is a discussion of the expected results of the Christian life. Jesus begins the section by stating that the way to salvation is not the road most people take (Matthew 7:13-14). He then states that it is not only external adherance to a standard the defines one who knows Jesus, but a changed nature (Matthew 7:15). The expected result of this changed nature, according to Jesus, is the bearing of "good fruit" (Matthew 16-17). Jesus maintains that it is impossible for a bad tree (one who has not been changed by Jesus) to producer good fruit. It is also impossible for one who has been transformed by Jesus to bear bad fruit (Matthew 7:18-19). The verb for produce is in the present indicative active in the greek, indicating ongoing production of fruit.

Jesus now says in Matthew 7:21 that not everyone who calls Him lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. It is rather those who do the will of God that will so inherit it.. Matthew not begins to define what doing God's will is and is not:

1. It is not simply accomplishing things for God (Matthew 7:22). Many believe that by doing things like prophesying, casting out demons, and perfroming miracles, that they are guaranteed a place in the Kingdom.

2. Jesus states that the primary way we accomplish God's will is by Knowing Jesus:

Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!'

Matthew 7:24 HCSB.

Notice also that it says that those who do not do God's will, were "never know by God. It does not say - depart from me, I quit knowing you. It says I never know you.

So, you connecting of Matthew 7:21 and Romans 12:1,2 is not really supported from the text itself. We should really allow Matthew to define what he means by "the will of God". So, I don't really see how you could legitimately connect the 2. The only connection is that Romans gives us a method for determining God's will (renewing our minds). it does not say that this is a prerequisite for being saved. It says it is a method for discerning that will

I agree with you. Obviously we need to look at the whole scripture and understand what type of people it is in reference to. Its referring to false prophets who acted in part of the Lord but obviously did not truly know Jesus in their heart for this is why Jesus says in verse 23 Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me evildoers! Why will they not be accepted into heaven? Because they never knew Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Just kinda repeating what you said but I liked it. Nice work!

[Arthur Durnan]

So bypassing all the glandular hysteria on this vital topic, one supposes the bottom-line is that our Pentecostal friends - according to what they insist on - can "lose their salvation" even tho they received "EVERLASTING salvation" and "ETERNAL life" ("SEALED until the day of redemption," Ephesians 1:13 & John 3:16).......and all other born-again Christians are saved ONCE-FOR-ALL-TIME by Jesus Christ (John 5:24) and GUARANTEED heaven thru the once-for-all, all-efficacious, fully-atoning, finished work of the Savior on Mt. Calvary. In point of biblical fact, there is no such thing anywhere in Holy Writ as being "born again, and again, and yet again!! ONCE IS FOREVER INDEED!

Thank You, Lord Jesus, for Your everlasting salvation purchased for us at such great cost. We will never cease to praise & thank You!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[TomPJr]

Don't have alot of time right now, but I wanted to respond to Openly Curious (I'll be back later when I have more time).

Yes, I have read the story of Hosea and Gomer. As Hosea was a prophet of God as God was using him to speak his words to the nation of Israel through the word picture that was being displayed through his adulterous wife. The story represents the falling away of God's chosen people Israel as they had left God and went back into idolatry. The bottom line they left God and went astray from the relationship they had with God and broke their end of the covenant as they did not keep it with God and was like the adulterous women. God through the prophet Hosea was trying to get them to see what they had done in order for them to realize and come to a place of repentance and return unto Him with all their hearts.

You're missing the most vital point here: Gomer was rebellious and adulterous, Israel was rebellious and adulterous.....but what happened to them? Did God allow them to abandon the covenant? Let me summarize it for you: Gomer (like Israel) openly rejected her husband's faithful love. She rebelled, she gave herself to other lovers. But in the MIDST of her rebellion, Hosea pursued her.

Your view (the rejection of eternal security) is not found in this story. If your view represented God's heart, what should've happened is that Gomer was left to be used up by her other "lovers". She walked away, thus according to your belief, that was her choice and the covenant would've been severed. However, this is not what occured. Instead, what happened was that Hosea went and publicly bought her back. This was his own wife, they had a covenant, by all rights she already belonged to him. And yet, he laid aside his own reputation and faced the humiliation of having to purchase back his own bride, one who had disgraced his name by giving herself to countless others (even baring children to other men). But the beauty of God's grace and redemption does not end there. Not only did Hosea buy her back, he "hedged" her in. He cut off all of her other resources so that she could not escape from his love. Furthermore, he wooed her, as the Scripture says, he spoke to her tenderly. This story alone destroys every argument that has been raised against eternal security, so I'm not surprised that it is often overlooked...or by the fact that when it is addressed, the most vital aspects are conveniently left out

The covenant with Abraham came in a vision. (Genesis 15:1-7). Abraham was awake at this point as the word of the Lord came to him.

Then you find this question from Abraham in Genesis 15:8--wherby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

As God then instructed Abraham in Genesis 15:9-11 to get the sacrificial animals God wanted him to sacrifice and Abraham obeyed and did it as he drove the birds away from taking the pieces that was layed out.

Then in Genesis 15:12 when the sun was going down a deep sleep fell on Abraham and God shared with Abraham in verses 13-16 that his future decendants being the Hebrew children in the text being referred to would spend 400 years in Egyptian bondage and when that time was up God would bring them out with great substance and you can read the book of Exodus that He did just that.

Then you can read where God let Abraham know that he would inherit the promises of this covenant in Genesis 15:17 as God accepted the sacrifice Abraham was instructed to do as the covenant was sealed at that point as a covenant is always sealed by "blood." (Hebrews 9:16-22) All covenants between man and man and between man and God were always "sealed" by a blood sacrifice.

The part I put in bold is the important part

First, it's important to note that it was common practice in the Old Testament for covenants to be sealed by blood. Typically, the way this happened was that animals would be split in two pieces and their blood spilled between the two parts. Then, the two parties who were entering a covenant together would pass between the halves, declaring the vows of the covenant. From what I understand, the division of the animals and the blood spilled was symbolic, essentially meaning that if the covenant was broken, that the condition of the dead animals represented how the parties would end up; torn in two, dead, blood spilled.

Anyway, the significant part of this story, is that Abraham did not participate in this covenant

Remember, he was ASLEEP. God caused Abraham to fall asleep and GOD HIMSELF passed between the animal halves. Many scholars believe that it was God the Father AND God the Son passed between the halves. This is highly important to note regarding the issue of eternal security for several reasons:

1. The New Covenant (in Christ) is the fulfillment of this covenant (with Abraham).

2. Both covenants place the SOLE responsibility on God.

3. Both covenants relied/rely on God's faithfulness, not a set of laws.

4. Both covenants rest on a promise from God.

Now do you see why those of us who adhere to eternal security keep bringing up Hosea and Abraham? These two examples demolish the works-based salvation that many of you are advocating. Oh, no one will admit that it's works-based, but that's essentially what it boils down to. By stating that our disobedience causes the covenant to be broken, it places the responsibility of the covenant on us [our own behavior], rather than placing the responsibility on God [the Author and FINISHER of our faith].

Cardcaptor is educated by the Master and has an understanding beyond text books.

1. Being educated by the Master entails the diligent study of Scripture. This must include studying the historical context, the original language, and understanding to whom each letter was written in order to be properly "educated". God does not educate us by osmosis, it requires effort on our part.

2. "Understanding" involves the ability to properly interpret and apply biblical principles.

3. There should not be a dichotomy between being "educated by the Master" and the use of text books. While the Bible is the ultimate authority, God very often uses extra-biblical sources to educate believers. There are even several scriptures which refer to extra-biblical sources (validating that these can be useful and beneficial to those seeking to grow in wisdom).

Bottom line, anti-intellectualism is not biblical. In fact, the misunderstanding about our reliance on the Holy Spirit in order to understand Scripture has led to a multitude of lazy believers who are unable to properly interpret and apply God's Word, much less defend it. This has also furthered a withdrawal from intellectual studies, while simultaneously perpetuating a form of elitism (and false sense of spiritualism). The basic notion of "I have the Holy Spirit, I don't need anything else!" is not only unbiblical, but this mindset has birthed some of the most grotesque misrepresentations of God this world has ever seen. Monsters such as Hitler, Jim Jones, David Koresh and others invoked the Scriptures to support their unholy agendas. Now it could be argued that none of these people operated under the influence of the Holy Spirit (and certainly didn't represent the Spirit of the biblical principles), however....the point remains that it clearly involves more than a prima facie understanding of Scriptures to properly interpret and apply them.

Personally, I am not a highly educated person (in the academic sense). I do not speak or read Greek or Hebrew, and by many accounts it could be argued that I have a learning disability (due to a medical condition). However, I diligently pursue God and accept the fact that He expects me to love Him with my MIND as much as I love Him with my heart. I don't have a free pass to be lazy in my study of the Word. None of us do. This doesn't mean we all must be biblical scholars, but neither does it mean we are free to shun and discredit those whom God has gifted to teach others. It seems that there are several who believe that having the Holy Spirit gives them an excuse to be intellectually lazy. Even worse, they believe that the Holy Spirit ensures them of supernatural, perfect understanding of the Scriptures....even to the point they reject historical, exegetical, lexical and contextual evidence that says otherwise. This isn't the definition of wisdom, it's the definition of foolishness. We've reached a sad place in modern Christianity when being well-studied and educated in biblical studies is ridiculed and rejected while a lacksidasicle, subjective approach to Scripture is favored and praised.

Hello,

I would like to address what you said about Gomer.

I think that you made some very valid points about How God is long suffering, not that any should perrish, and how he persues us to bring us to repentence. He doesn't control our minds and force us, although he does chastise us and refine us in the fire and storms in our lives.

For some people this works, but there will be many that rebell too long and there conscience is seared and they will no longer hear the Holy Spirit convicting them to repent. Those who are lost will be lost because of their failure to repent, not Gods failure. God will have tried everything he could do other than mind control. We have an awsome gift of free will.

Adam and Eve had the free will to disobey, and cause the fall.

The example that you used with Gomer or Abraham, is a good example of how God wants us to respond to him when we stumble. It is there to show us how longsuffering he is and how he wills us to come back to him when we fall away. It doesn't mean that we can't remain lost. It doesn't show that we don't have free will.

If The Holy Spirit is convicting you of something and you keep ignoring it, you can be in danger of silencing his voice to the point that you will no longer be convicted of the sins that you need to repent of. This becomes the unpardinable sin because you silence the only voice that brings you conviction of the need to ask forgiveness and repent.

Salvation is conditional....we must ask forgiveness and repent.

[Ovedya]

God cannot be all-merciful and all-powerful if His eternal life (Which is His nature) is limited by man's flawed ability to choose.

Shalom Ovedya,

This is what I find so confusing. It is the OSAS that continually says G-d's power is limited, not the NOSAS.

In fact, those of us of NOSAS have said repeatedly that choice does not, limit, diminish, negate or in any way affect G-d's power. It simply is impossible to limit G-d's power. It cannot be done. G-d is all-powerful, there is nothing or no one that diminishes His power.

Choice is simply the ability to accept His salvation and abide in it or reject it. If one rejects G-d's gift of eternal life, that decision in no way changes G-d's power. The person simply refuses to take the gift. It doesn't make it any less powerful.

Of course it makes it less powerful. Because God's promise that there should be "no means" by which the believer shall perish is negated by man's rejection of eternal life.

[Kabowd]

Yes, that is what I just said, being with Christ can make one smart beyond text books. As far as your other analogy goes it just depends on which one is the smartest in whom trumps who.

I addressed this earlier, but it's worth noting again. This isn't about "trumping" one another or being the smartest. There is a right way of approaching God's Word and a wrong way. The wrong way of approaching it involves one or more of these things:

1. Approaching Scriptures with a presupposition.

2. Searching Scriptures with the intention of supporting a presupposition. (this includes proof-texting)

3. Ignoring historical, contextual, and lexical information.

4. Using Scripture to combat Scripture.

Those aren't all of the ways that one could approach God's Word, but those are probably the primary ways it is misused. In addition to this, now that people are more internet savvy, people often use Google and Wikipedia as resources in place of legitimate study. I'm not saying that these things can't be helpful, but they do not equal or replace a lifestyle of genuine and diligent study. It seems that very often a person's insecurities makes them incapable of receiving instruction from others, even when the other person is clearly more well-studied on an issue. Of course I'm not suggesting that we should take anyone's word when they say "this is so". However, there are people who post frequently on this board who have proven themselves to be wise, diligent pursuers of God's truth. People such as shiloh357, EricH, Ovedya, apothanein kerdos..while all being very diverse and having differing styles, each are very educated when it comes to the Scriptures (to varying degrees), and I think we do a great disservice to the work of the Holy Spirit in them when we reject what they have to offer, especially when it's based largely on the fact that they are well educated. No one is saying that one person is "better" than another because they are more educated. What we are saying is that it's foolish not to consider the teaching of those who are wiser than ourselves. This is Scriptural.

I am saying that Jonah did not go and publicly deny that God was God and that he no longer believed in Him. As that is the way I took you to mean so that is why I said what I did in that regards. I do seperate sin, rebellion and denying God as they are three seperate things which all may lead to the same results in the end but they are seperate things from one another.

Sin is wilful transgression against God.

Rebellion is not listening to what God says to you personally

Denying God is an outward act one does wanting nothing to do with God like apostle Peter did when they arrested Jesus three times before the cock crew he denied knowing the Lord Jesus Christ publicly. As they are three different things.

In my opinion God did not coerce Jonah at all. But God used Jonah's situation knowing what he would do and gave Jonah as a sign to the nation of Israel in how that He Himself was going to turn to the Gentile nations so that His glory would fill all of the earth at their rejection of the Messiah as this was a sign the only sign that was given. God did teach Jonah however His divine will and purpose through it all.

This is what happens when we approach the Scriptures with presuppositions So far, on all three accounts (Hosea, Israel and Jonah) you have ignored what is blatantly obvious:

1. Gomer rebelled, Hosea pursued her. Hosea FORCED her to return to him.

2. Israel rebelled, God pursued her. God FORCED Israel to return to Him.

3. Jonah rebelled, God pursued him. God FORCED Jonah to obey Him.

In each case there was willful disobedience, rebellion, and complete rejection of God. In each case, the covenant was not dependent upon the obedience of the person/persons involved. In each case, GOD fulfilled the covenant...by force when necessary. Same with Abraham. God inacted the covenant, and God fulfilled the covenant Himself (even when Abraham tried to do it on his own, producing Ishmael).

Yes, really I am serious. The scriptures you provide are to the nation of Israel to return as the prophet of God was true in his relationship with God and God used Hosea to speak unto his people. Hosea did not go astray as you are suggesting but the nation of Israel however did. Notice the "HER" in the scriptural text provided by you. It wasn't Hosea for He was being used by God as God's voice during that time period as Israel straying from God as thus Gomer did from Hosea's marriage.

There was no force. There is no force in "alluring" there is no force in "speaking kindly" there is chastisement from God in hopes they will repent and return on their own seeing the error of their ways but no force it is all up to them to return freely of their own choice or not. Even after chastisement from God one is not forced by God to return never.

If there was no force, why did Gomer return? Was it by her own choice? Has Israel returned to God? Has God abandoned His covenant with Israel in her defiance? Again, you approach the Scriptures through the lens of your presupposition (that salvation is conditional). Instead of approaching them with an openness to learn what is true.

I think your words betray you here in my interpretation of them. I think I'll stick to my wrong paradigm for now and suggest you re-read a might as well.

OC

I went back and read, and this was in reference to a post that AK had made. It was an obvious typo (he meant to say Gomer, not Hosea). The rest of his post validated what he meant. To misunderstand his point would actually take an effort to do, as he and I both have made it very clear what Hosea and Gomer each represented.

[TomPJr]

So bypassing all the glandular hysteria on this vital topic, one supposes the bottom-line is that our Pentecostal friends - according to what they insist on - can "lose their salvation" even tho they received "EVERLASTING salvation" and "ETERNAL life" ("SEALED until the day of redemption," Ephesians 1:13 & John 3:16).......and all other born-again Christians are saved ONCE-FOR-ALL-TIME by Jesus Christ (John 5:24) and GUARANTEED heaven thru the once-for-all, all-efficacious, fully-atoning, finished work of the Savior on Mt. Calvary. In point of biblical fact, there is no such thing anywhere in Holy Writ as being "born again, and again, and yet again!! ONCE IS FOREVER INDEED!

Thank You, Lord Jesus, for Your everlasting salvation purchased for us at such great cost. We will never cease to praise & thank You!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

excuse me...

the ephesians passage that you quoted says that they are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

this means that the Holy Spirit will be with them to convict them and keep them on the right track.

NOWHERE does it say that their salvation is sealed.

Gods sacrifice is once and for all, like you stated, but the Holy Spirits job continues, because we must ask forgiveness and repent of our sins in order to have salvation, and the Holy Spirit is the means by which we are convicted of the need to confess, ask forgiveness and repent. We can however, because of our free will, be stubborn and ignore the conviction.

Thank God that he is longsuffering, but we should not count on the Holy Spirit to always be there. The Bible says that there will be a time when he will withdraw his Holy Spirit. What a sad time for all who have been ignoring their convictions to live a sinful life with a false sense of security and presumed salvation.

[Kabowd]

Hello,

I would like to address what you said about Gomer.

I think that you made some very valid points about How God is long suffering, not that any should perrish, and how he persues us to bring us to repentence. He doesn't control our minds and force us, although he does chastise us and refine us in the fire and storms in our lives.

Hello I don't have alot of time right now, sorry, but I wanted to try to make a quick reply (hopefully I'll get back here later). Anyway, the first thing I wanted to point out is that if you agree that God pursues us to bring us to repentance, and you agree that God chastises those who are His own (which are both correct)...how can you also agree that disobedience and rebellion causes one to lose their salvation? These two concepts are mutually exclusive. As I've pointed out using Gomer, Israel and Jonah....in the midst of our rebellion, God does not reject us or let us "walk away". He pursues us all the more.

For some people this works, but there will be many that rebell too long and there conscience is seared and they will no longer hear the Holy Spirit convicting them to repent.

Scripture teaches that persistent rebellion is the sign of one who has not been changed by the Holy Spirit. Scripture also teaches that obedience ONLY follows love. One CANNOT obey unless their heart has been changed FIRST. Thus, a person who persistently rebels is someone who is walking by their own strength and not letting the Holy Spirit change their heart first.

Those who are lost will be lost because of their failure to repent, not Gods failure. God will have tried everything he could do other than mind control.

A failure to repent means a person is not saved to begin with. God doesn't "try" anything by the way.

We have an awsome gift of free will.

Adam and Eve had the free will to disobey, and cause the fall.

I do not believe in absolute free will. I believe in limited will. But that's for another topic

The example that you used with Gomer or Abraham, is a good example of how God wants us to respond to him when we stumble. It is there to show us how longsuffering he is and how he wills us to come back to him when we fall away. It doesn't mean that we can't remain lost. It doesn't show that we don't have free will.

Both examples are very clear. Gomer and Israel didn't "stumble". Gomer did not return to Hosea after she suddenly realized the error of her ways. Have you read the book? What part of Gomer's return to Hosea was by her own free will?

If The Holy Spirit is convicting you of something and you keep ignoring it, you can be in danger of silencing his voice to the point that you will no longer be convicted of the sins that you need to repent of. This becomes the unpardinable sin because you silence the only voice that brings you conviction of the need to ask forgiveness and repent.

The unpardonable sin is the rejection of the Holy Spirit, the rejection of salvation. There is no scriptural support for the idea that disobedience morphs into the unpardonable sin. Scripture teaches that God chastens His own (Hebrews 12). Those who disobey and ignore His leading are punished, disciplined as a father chastens his child. You used the example of your son earlier. If your son disobeys, to the point he leaves your home and rejects all you've taught him..it still doesn't change the fact that he's still your son.

[Ovedya]

We have an awsome gift of free will.

Adam and Eve had the free will to disobey, and cause the fall.

Then the question is, after the fall did man retain his perfect free will? Or did the fall corrupt every aspect of man's being?

[TomPJr]

Hello,

I would like to address what you said about Gomer.

I think that you made some very valid points about How God is long suffering, not that any should perrish, and how he persues us to bring us to repentence. He doesn't control our minds and force us, although he does chastise us and refine us in the fire and storms in our lives.

Hello I don't have alot of time right now, sorry, but I wanted to try to make a quick reply (hopefully I'll get back here later). Anyway, the first thing I wanted to point out is that if you agree that God pursues us to bring us to repentance, and you agree that God chastises those who are His own (which are both correct)...how can you also agree that disobedience and rebellion causes one to lose their salvation? These two concepts are mutually exclusive. As I've pointed out using Gomer, Israel and Jonah....in the midst of our rebellion, God does not reject us or let us "walk away". He pursues us all the more.

For some people this works, but there will be many that rebell too long and there conscience is seared and they will no longer hear the Holy Spirit convicting them to repent.

Scripture teaches that persistent rebellion is the sign of one who has not been changed by the Holy Spirit. Scripture also teaches that obedience ONLY follows love. One CANNOT obey unless their heart has been changed FIRST. Thus, a person who persistently rebels is someone who is walking by their own strength and not letting the Holy Spirit change their heart first.

Those who are lost will be lost because of their failure to repent, not Gods failure. God will have tried everything he could do other than mind control.

A failure to repent means a person is not saved to begin with. God doesn't "try" anything by the way.

We have an awsome gift of free will.

Adam and Eve had the free will to disobey, and cause the fall.

I do not believe in absolute free will. I believe in limited will. But that's for another topic

The example that you used with Gomer or Abraham, is a good example of how God wants us to respond to him when we stumble. It is there to show us how longsuffering he is and how he wills us to come back to him when we fall away. It doesn't mean that we can't remain lost. It doesn't show that we don't have free will.

Both examples are very clear. Gomer and Israel didn't "stumble". Gomer did not return to Hosea after she suddenly realized the error of her ways. Have you read the book? What part of Gomer's return to Hosea was by her own free will?

If The Holy Spirit is convicting you of something and you keep ignoring it, you can be in danger of silencing his voice to the point that you will no longer be convicted of the sins that you need to repent of. This becomes the unpardinable sin because you silence the only voice that brings you conviction of the need to ask forgiveness and repent.

The unpardonable sin is the rejection of the Holy Spirit, the rejection of salvation. There is no scriptural support for the idea that disobedience morphs into the unpardonable sin. Scripture teaches that God chastens His own (Hebrews 12). Those who disobey and ignore His leading are punished, disciplined as a father chastens his child. You used the example of your son earlier. If your son disobeys, to the point he leaves your home and rejects all you've taught him..it still doesn't change the fact that he's still your son.

I think that you made some very good points...

I agree with much of the first stuff that you said....if the person doesn't have a change in heart then they really aren't saved.

So many Christians(so-called) believe that they are saved once they acknowledge Christ and are baptized, but they don't have a change in heart. Or....they might have some conviction, and have a slight change in heart, but it doesn't last. For those people, they really thought they were saved, but they weren't. Just because you say "I'm saved" or " I'm Baptized", doesn't mean you are truly saved. The point is that they think that they are saved.

I think some of the confusion comes in with the definition of saved.

some think it is when you accept Christ.

I think it is when your heart is converted.

You said that the unpardinable sin is the rejection of the Holy Spirit.....I think that you are right...by ignoring the Holy Spirits convictions to repent, you are rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit. If you do this long enough you will ultimately harden your heart so much that your conscience is seared to the point at which you no longer hear the voice of the Holy Spirit trying to bring you into repentence and you will no longer feel the need to ask for forgiveness. We need to do that to be saved, and if you don't allow the Holy Spirit to convert your heart, then you will be ultimately lost. It is your choice. That is why scripture says "If you hear my voice, now is the time, today is the day".....if you keep procrastinating, you are increasing the bad habbits and silencing the voice of God.

God wants us to love him of our free will, not by mind control. Another term for forced love is rape. He tries to convince us by letting us experience sin and its consequences, but we can be too bull headed and stubborn to let the Holy Spirit soften our hearts and convert us.

Peace.

With Love in Christ....

Tom