TomPJr

Hi. I have not read the book, but don't have to to form an oppinion about how it measures with scripture. the bible tells us that when we die, our flesh returns to the earth, and our breath of life or spirit, returns to God who gave it. At that point we do not exist anymore untill the resurection. Genesis tells us that God formed man form the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the "breath of life" or spirit, and man became a living "soul". many people are confused and think that we have an immortal soul(described as a coscious spirit), but that is unscriptural. God alone hath immortality according to the bible. WE ARE SOULS. Flesh + Spirit = Soul Flesh + Breath of life = living being either of the equasions above are correct....spirit = breath of life, or God's life giving force. . . . and soul=living being...You and me. God breathed into Adams nostrils the breath of life "spirit" and he became alive. When we die, Gods spirit or breath returns to him but it is not a conscious being. We do not exist again untill the resurection, when Jesus comes back with his reward. The bible says that when he returns his reward is with him. We do not get it before hand. a good illustration is this..... take a pile of boards, and put them together with some nails, and you can have a box. if you pull aout all the nails, wht happens to the box? It ceases to exist. The same is with us when we die. When you remove the breath of life form us, we cease to exist as a conscious being...untill the resurection, when God puts his life giving force back into us and revives us. The bible describes death as a sleep, in which we know nothing and remember nothing, and we have no cares about anything. no wonder..we are dead and not conscious of anything untill we are raised at the resurection. At that moment though, it will be as a twinkling of an eye for anyone who has died. For them, it will seem instantanious from when they died untill the resurection, because as they are dead, they will have no recollection of time. Anyways..I feel like I am rambling even though I'm trying to be brief. God bless, and I hope this helps. One more thing though..remember...Satan and his minions are out there trying to mislead us and get us to believe things that are unbiblical to discredit the bible. They can even impersonate dead loved ones to get people to believe in ghosts,and such, and then they can use those facsimilies to misguide people....Sometimes it may even sound like it is good stuff, but remember also that rat posion is 99% good food. It looks and smells like there's nothing wrong with it, but it is deadly to the rat. Be careful and compare it with scripture. God Bless.

everyone should watch this video.... There is a lot of deception out there about this subject, started by Satan, to make people think there will be a second chance after the "rapture". check it out.... http://www.amazingfacts.org/Television/AmazingFactsPresents/tabid/77/ctl/PlayMedia/mid/411/MDID/2089/Default.aspx

hey guys, I believe that I have a pretty good grasp on the prophesy, however...by looking back at Dan 12:7 as OneLight referenced, and using E-Swords free bible software with strongs concordance, I notice the the referenced concordance numbers for "a time" and "times" are both the same numbers. This makes me wonder how they were translated differently, one right after the other. Anybody have the answer? Tom

Hello everyone and God Bless you all. There seems to be some great misunderstandings about what a time, times and half of time means. I hope this will help you. It is actually a prophetic term that the Bible itself explains. In Revelation 12:14, we read these words concerning the same time period,

Respectfully I ask... Where is it written that parables can't use names? Many people today use names in fictional stories or jokes. Why not a parable? Some jokes even incorporate the names of the audience or someone the audience knows for effect. Could it be that Jjesus used the name for effect?

Hello, I've done some studying on this... A time was equivalent to one year - A time, + times(two times) + 1/2 time = 3 1/2 years 3 1/2 years = 1,260 days, and a day in Bible prophesy = one year, so here we have 1,260 years. I don't have time to expand right now, but think about it and study. God bless you.

I still wonder why everybody will agree that we must follow the rest of the ten commandments... don't steal, lie, commit adultery, murder, etc..., but so many try so hard to forget the only commandment that stars with the word remember. the forth commandment is "REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY...." Not a sabbath day, but THE Sabbath day. The one God ordained. There is such a blessing in it, so why do so many people try to get rid of it, or say it's just like any other day? God Sanctified it.

Hi TomP, Have you read 1John 3:9? I have asked for anyone from the LOS side to reconcile it with their theology. How would you explain that verse in light of your understanding? Your statement about how you think I take that verse shows that you probably don't understand the New Birth. 1John 3:9 is talking about the New Birth, the New Man, the New Creation in Christ Jesus. By the way consensus will never change the Truth of God's Word. Theology is not a matter of how many people agree as to what it is but what the Holy Spirit shows is the truth. I am sorry that you do not know that you are truly saved for in the same 1John, John mentions many time that we KNOW, and that we might know. I do know. And by Gain do you mean earn? Can you add anything to the work of Christ? LT If you are walking in the light then you are saved...however if you are walking in darkness, how can you be sure? Many will come to Jesus saying Lord Lord, but they will be lost.... They knew and uderstood and believed, but they had not the will to walk according to the light. The work of jesus was to pave the road to get from here to there....we still have to walk on it. Faith without works is dead, so if you have no works, then you should question your walk and your salvation, but be carefull, many will have good works and will cast out demons in jesus' name, but still will be lost because they had not love.

OK, tyring to take it in the context that you present makes it even more confusing to me, because if we say that the Sabbath is important to God then it will be equally important not to leave our dwelling place from Fri sundown to Sat sundown, or not to build a fire or carry a burden or even really, go to church since that is not allowed in the law of the Sabbath. I see the days of the week and time in it's entirety being the creation of God, not anything that He lives in or by. A creation for man, not man made for it, because it was implemented later. As far as the "rest" goes I understand it to be complete peace and trust in Jesus. The physical resting of a day in the shadow becomes our Rest that promised to take our burdens and He would give us rest for our souls.....not our bodies. Looking at the topic in a physical light will not get the true meaning of it. I'm not saying, do what you want, need no bible, whatever sarcasm you are suggesting, I'm saying everyday should be as holy as the next and we should't differentiate in any of them. How can you say that everyday is as Holy as the next? God definately differentiated when he created them and specifically blessed and sanctified the seventh day as a memorial of creation and a time of re-creation for us...to renew our hearts with him. All Christians should live holy each day, but we still have jobs to do, houses and cars to maintain, all of which detracts from total devotion to God. This is where the Sabbath comes in. It's strange that so many people make excuses not to rest, when God just wants us to rest from our daily worries or work, and rest in him.

Hello, I've been reading through these comments and would like to respond to all... First of all God did bless and sanctify a certain day, not just any of our choosing, but the seventh day, which God chose himself. Does any of you think that you can choose a better day? Maybe the seventh day may not seem convenient for you, but that is where faith comes in and there remains a special blessing for those whoe honor the Sabbath. Some people say that we aren't required to keep the Sabbath...That is so rediculus....think about it... We must work to earn a living and pay our bills and accomplish anything in our lives, but God specifically sanctified a special day when we can rest apart from our daily worries and work, so that we could focus our attention on him and what he has done. We can't honor the Sabbath everyday. The Sabbath is a time for us to recharge and reflect on Gods creation.... yes, we can and should think on those things daily, but the Sabbath is a date with God when we surrender all other worries and focus on God for the whole day. We cannot do that everyday with all the stuff we must do. He has given us all of our time here and only asks for one seventh back. the Sabbath was not given to the Jews...It was given to mankind in the Garden of eden. Adam and eve honored the Sabbath. God instituted the Sabbath at creation....he rested the Seventh day and sanctified it. Blessings, Tom

Dear Greg, What you stated is very intuitive, but I believe lacks some understanding... Please hear me out before you get too defensive. We do recieve salvation by grace, but do most really understand what that means? That doesn't mean that we cannot fall from grace. Waht it means is that we are all deserving of the death penalty (eternal death), but by the grace of God he has given us a way out... the Grace does not give us a free ticket to live however we want to....it gives us the ability to reprove ourselves, and repent, and recieve the gift of eternal life. If I hand you a gift, in order for you to benefit from it you must reach out and take hold of it and utilize it. The point being, that in order for you to benefit from the gift there are works that must be done. the works aren't to earn the gift, but rather to utilize it! Noone can earn salvation... but they must be willing to repent. If not...then they forfiet thier salvation. If a family member does something harmful towards you, would you forgive them? If they stole from you would you forgive them? Most Christians would forgive if they belived that the person was repentant. However, if the person was unrepentant and kept taking advantage of you, and kept stealing, no matter how much love you showed, how could you continually forgive them, especially if they discontinued to even ask for forgiveness? There is a shut-off point.

Phil.2:12 You are absolutely correct in this assessment. Losing one's salvation is NOT about one single sin nor a sin just before one dies. It is about living Christianity with unrepented sin. If our lives are completely devoted to do the will of God and obeying his commandments through faith then we will have a home in heaven, but if we live our "Christian" lives still filled with sins that we refuse to repent of or don't think we have to repent of them then we are not fit for heaven. What I have been trying to get people to realize is that OSAS doctrine has led a great deal of the religious community thinking that they can have Christ and their sins too. They are taught to accept Jesus in their hearts as their lord and personal savior and they are saved without having to do anything else because did everything on the cross for us. Anything outside of that we are doing of ourselves. If all of this we true then we would have no need of a bible which contains 26 books of the New Testament. We know that sin is a transgression of the law. For us it is the Law Of Christ. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory". If we all have sinned then there is a law that we transgressed. Without a law there is no sin. Even after we are born again we are commanded to follow that law. If we don't then we sin. The will of God is that we resist temptations so that we don't sins. That is what 1 John is referring to. As Christians we live a life of sins and we choose not to sin. As Christians we still have the ability to sin, but the point is what are we going to do about it. Are we going to repent of it, ask forgiveness, and strive harder not to give in again or are we just going to let it God thinking that we don't need to repent because Christ did everything for us on the cross? One thing I have learned in all my years of talking to denominational people is that even though they believe in hell they don't think anybody is going there. They think that God is so loving that they can't understand why he would condemn anybody to hell. Hebrews 10:28-31 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Look at this example here. We see that under Moses' law that those who despised the law dies without mercy. Then it is saying that those who have trodden under foot the Son of God will have a much sorer punishment. This is speaking of those who were sanctified. We know that only Christians today are sanctified under Christ. It goes on to say that the Lord will judge his people (Christians) and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Now, if Christ did everything for us on the cross and all of our sins are automatically forgiven past, present, and future, Christians cannot sin then why would God need to judge his own people? These verses and other like it are telling us that even though we have been sanctified we can still lose what was promised to us if we choose to keep our lives filled with sin. This doesn't mean they were never saved because we can see here that it is speaking of those who have been sanctified. right on brother! Jesus wants to cleanse us, but we must allow him. He will not force it upon us... everytime we get dirty or jump in the mud puddle of sin, we must ask for forgiveness(cleansing), and try to repent(keep from stumbling back into the puddle). If we have no desire or will to stay out of the mud and just stay in the mud then it is impossible to be cleaned. Right? I imagine trying to clean a baby that is in a mud puddle. No matter how much you clean, the baby remains dirty because he is continually remaining in the dirt. Yes, Jesus has the power to pull us(the baby) out of the mud, and does so sometimes through his Holy Spirit, but because of our free will we can end up right back in the mud puddle. He does not force us, only coviction through his Holy Spirit...(our conscience?). Sad but true, we have the power to deny, or ignore the Holy Spirits convictions. If we do this to long, our conscience may be seered and our hearts hardened so much that we won't even hear the still small voice pleading with us to repent. If this happens we have committed the unpardonable sin because we will not be convicted or feel the need to repent or ask forgiveness. The only sin that will be unforgiven is the one that we don't ask forgiveness for. I'm not talking about something that we didn't know was sin, I'm talking about something that we were once convicted of and through ignoring,(or blaspheming) the Holy Spirit, we no longer are convicted of and will not repent. To blaspheme God was to take on the attributes or authority of God....We blaspheme the Holy Spirit when we take over the authority of the Holy Spirit in our lives and decide for ourselves what is right and wrong. If we continue to wallow in the mud with no desire to stay clean, our probation may run out and Jesus will say let those who are righteous be righteous still and let those who are wicked be wicked still...let those who are clean be clean still and those who are filthy be filthy still. That is when he removes his Holy Spirit just before he comes back. Peace Brother, P.s. this message is mainly for others who do not understand. A Godly warning for those who feel they don't need to be warned.

My faith says it is not possible. The entire natural world testifies to His being. But, consider this: If you are correct that there is no God, when I die, I've lost nothing. If I am correct that God Is, when you die, you've lost everything and face eternity in hell. Psalm 14:1--"The fool hast said in his heart, 'There is no God.'.... I implore you to seek Him and the salvation He lovingly offers. Loving you in the love of the Lord, Speaker

Is it possible, FS, that you do not exist? It is possible. I am open minded enough to at least accept that remote possibility.

Why is it that some only look at either exceptions or in this case, where God (Jesus) was giving His divine insight, namely His foreknowledge that He knew, as He does all of us, who will eventually be faithful. (same with Judas) If one is not faithful, God knows from the beginning. However, we don't live in this world with the insight of God's foreknowledge. All of the Bible clearly states that man must make sure he remains in faith. If he loses faith, he is no longer IN Christ, and will not be saved. It is your job and obligation to test the spirits, to make sure you are being faithful. That you will not be one of those where were faithful for a time but fell from grace. The Church is full of people who think they are IN Christ and they are not. They might be later in life, as well as many who are not now IN Christ now and will believe, repent in the future. This goes right back to the branches being pruned and burned as well, and if one repents, they will be grafted back in. These are figurative metaphors to relate a meaning. It seems some people want to make them absolutes and very literal. Can you explain how a burned branch could be grafted back in, if you hold it as a absolute? Great posts, and great insight! I've been reading and wanted to resond many times but you have been doing pretty good yourself. I want to say something though...LarryT seems to think that once saved you can not commit sin... I would like to know if he believes he is saved, and if so...does he ever sin? (rhetorical question). If you cannot lose your salvation in this life then there would be no need to warn and warn and warn believers to repent and keep on track. It seems pretty simple to me. There is an exception to the rule though.... I do believe in OSAS when Jesus comes back. If you remember in prophesy it is foretold that there is a probationary period and at the end of it God will say let the wicked be wicked still and let the righteous be rightous still. Only then does OSAS truly apply. Untill then we must gaurd our Souls from the Devil who wishes to get us of the narrow road to heaven and lead us down the wide easy road to the lake of fire. You nor I know what tomorrow brings or if we are truly saved. Many people like to believe that they are saved and cannot fall away, and thus become extremely vulnerable to temptation, because they don't fear condemnation. The only thing that we know for sure is that God wants to save us. We have certain instructions to follow in order to gain salvation (ask forgiveness, repent). Jesus gives us a free gift (pardon, salvation) We must accept it (ask forgiveness, repent)

That begs the question, "If God condemns us on the basis of our not having the ability or will to ask for forgiveness before we die, what happens when a Chrsitian dies suddenly and unexpectedly, without the opportunity to ask for forgiveness of his "dirt" (sins)? Eternal punishment for a single sin without opportunity for repentance seems a bit extreme, don't you think? Ovedya.... I respectfully ask you to think about something.... If you think that is extreme, what about torturing somebody endlessly without end in the lake of fire because of some 70 0r 80 years of sin in this life. Don't you think that is extreme? That is what common Christian Dogma teaches. My point is this.... God Knows your heart...you may die with an unrepented sin and still be saved, it's all about your heart. I heard a parable once that went something like this... there was a man that had given his heart to the Lord and from time to time he slipped back in to his old ways, but repented. After all, he was human. His heart desired to please God, and even though he really wanted to please God, once in a while he would slip and fall. God was with him though, and he would always get up again. One day he was killed in a tragic accident before he had a chance to repent of his last sin,,, and so Satan laughed as he charged God that the mans soul belonged to him, but God Responded...."I know his heart, and if given more time on earth, he would have repented... therefore his soul belongs to me." Moral of the story- GOD KNOWS YOUR HEART......Where is yours? If the reasoning is simply "God knows the thoughts and intentions of the heart," then isn't OSNAS undermined? Because, as being a man, one cannot truly know the thoughts and intentions of another man's heart. Therefore one cannot truly say with confidence that a single unforgiven sin would result in eternal torment. (Incidentally, I am of the camp that believes in the finality of the second death.) If I understand what you are saying, then I agree 100%

That begs the question, "If God condemns us on the basis of our not having the ability or will to ask for forgiveness before we die, what happens when a Chrsitian dies suddenly and unexpectedly, without the opportunity to ask for forgiveness of his "dirt" (sins)? Eternal punishment for a single sin without opportunity for repentance seems a bit extreme, don't you think? Ovedya.... I respectfully ask you to think about something.... If you think that is extreme, what about torturing somebody endlessly without end in the lake of fire because of some 70 0r 80 years of sin in this life. Don't you think that is extreme? That is what common Christian Dogma teaches. My point is this.... God Knows your heart...you may die with an unrepented sin and still be saved, it's all about your heart. I heard a parable once that went something like this... there was a man that had given his heart to the Lord and from time to time he slipped back in to his old ways, but repented. After all, he was human. His heart desired to please God, and even though he really wanted to please God, once in a while he would slip and fall. God was with him though, and he would always get up again. One day he was killed in a tragic accident before he had a chance to repent of his last sin,,, and so Satan laughed as he charged God that the mans soul belonged to him, but God Responded...."I know his heart, and if given more time on earth, he would have repented... therefore his soul belongs to me." Moral of the story- GOD KNOWS YOUR HEART......Where is yours?

So Christ's death only paid the penalty for the sins of which you were aware or that you have overcome. The rest are yours to work out or repent of and if you don't, you lose your salvation? No!!!! Think about this. When we came into Christianity not everybody knew all of the scriptures. Some barely knew what a sin was. When we were born again ALL of our sins were washed away whether we knew they were sins or not. Now, it is up to us to learn what sin is so that we do not go on committing the same sins that we were forgiven for. 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. This is a labour that we are commanded to do. I have been around Christianity a long time and I am always learning more of the law and myself. Each time I learn that there is something in my life that is a sin I repent of it and the working out part do sometimes take time, but if I really want to overcome it Christ and the Holy Spirit are there to help me. Hebrews 4:15-16 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. We are tempted everyday in our lives with sin, but it is up to us to resist that temptation. If we give into the temptations we could die in our sins. James 1:12-15 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. The work and labor we do not to give into sin and to change our minds to not desire sin is a labor and a work. 2 Corinthians 5:9-10 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. So, basically, if we give into our sins not wanting to repent of them we will die in our sins. So if all of our sins were washed away, how does one loose their salvation? all of our past sins are washed away... you must repent and ask forgiveness for your future ones when they happen. The point is that you can't just say I accept Christ and all is forgiven and then live a worldly lifestyle....you must live Christlike...Christianly. Think about it this way.... If I get dirty and then take a shower, I am clean. No matter how dirty I was, I am clean now. It's up to me to stay clean, but chances are I will make a mistake and get dirty again. Then I need to take a shower again and become clean. Jesus is always their with cleansing soap (so to speak) for those who will to be clean. No matter haw dirty we get. I believe that we must be very carefull though, not to play willfully in the dirt, lest our hearts become too stained (or too hardened) to be cleaned. The Holy Spirit speakes to us through our conscience, but if we continually play in the dirt (sin) our ears will become so dirty that we will not hear his voice pleading with us to go to Jesus for cleansing. We no longer want to look into the mirror of Gods law to see how dirty we are. We are then left unforgiven, not because Jesus wouldn't forgive, but rather because we wouldn't ask. Remember that the criteria for forgiveness is confessing to God, asking forgiveness, and repenting. If our hearts are hardened to much to hear Gods voice calling us to repentence, then we will never ask for forgiveness.

You must ask what does in vain mean? If a wife takes her hubands last name and commits adultery, she is not acting as a wife should and she took her hubands name,,,in vain. Likewise, if we take the Lords name upon ourselves, calling ourselves Christians, but we live a life that shows otherwise, we are using his name in vain, meaning we are of no avail. It also entails using his name in conversation in any manner that does not glorify him. So if you are using it profainly, then you are obviously using it in vain, but I believe that it goes much further. I don't think most people ever consider my first example....

It is a pretty strong indication that they had a common ancestor, though It also shows how profound the effects of a small change in DNA can be as well. Fascinating stuff, really. I guess it really depends on all the evidence combined.... It may suggest that to you, but to me it is more evidence of the same creator. I used to believe the way you do, because I was taught that all my life in school. Later, I found more evidence to point at Gods fingerprints. Then I found evidence of many cover-ups of falsities in our textbooks that are still there. They teach many theories in science courses as fact when they take faith to believe in as my religion does. Many of the theories can be proven false, but there are conspiracies to keep the lies in the textbooks, and most people just believe everything they read or here if it is coming from an authority.

I believe that they are the same kind. They are of the horse family, just as all varieties of horses are along with zebras. Just like a great dane and a shitzu are bothe of the dog "kind". Just as black people and white people can procreate, because we are of the same kind. the different classifications of animals within the same kind are just variations. Tom

Do Chevy pickups and Suburbans procreate? What are the methods of genetic inheritance among pickups? Most importantly, what sort of selective pressures might the environment place on a pickup truck that will influence the likelihood of it passing on its genes? My point was that just because different species of animals share similar DNA or similar characteristics, doesn't mean that one evolved from the other. Another option is that they had the same creator. God used similar materials or building blocks to create all of creation, and it just makes sense that some of his creation will have similar qualities. There are also some that are quite different.

So Noah has meat-canning facilities now? C'mon, you're making this up as you go along. As I said before, just think about that for ten minutes, before you reply. You have yourself, your wife, three sons and their wives, crops to sow and get in, a house to build, and then you have to organise getting the two giant sloths back to Patagonia. After them, you have to get the vicunas to the top of the Andes. Then the llamas, and the alpacas. Then off to the jungle to plant the boas, and the rare poisonous frogs, and the millions of insects. Then a quick sail to the galapagos to do those pesky penguins, and those tortoises... etc etc etc That's just South America. Meanwhile, the polar bears are complaining about the heat, and are eyeing you up for breakfast. Your only tools are, maybe, a primitive boat, and bronze age tools. No compass, no GPS, no star almanac, no map, no knowledge of the planet's geography. And all the above ignores the basic biological fact that populations of two animals are not viable. Dave... you are making big assumptions that they had insect and frogs and that the sloths were full grown. I think that they probably had baby animals on the ark....and there was no need to take insects or amphibians....come on! Also, there was no such thing as a carnivor at that time. You will probably disagree because of the shape of their teeth, but look at a Panda bear for example....they have quite big fangs and eat only leaves. The bible gives a great explanation of what took place, you should read it. Also, you said in a previous post that the water had nowhere to go.....oh yes, I think it did. You see, the bible says that whiole it rained, the fountains of the deep broke, and water came gushing out of the earth. This helped flood the entire earth. Then, when God was ready, he let the waters return. Much of the water returned below the surface of the earth. If you know much at all about science and geology, then you know that there is water under the surface. The land mass today is probably quite less than iwas before the flood.

Sorry, Joe, I'm sure you're a nice guy in the flesh, but when you reply to me, you come across as someone on hallucinogenic drugs. I am here, since this forum is entitled 'apologetics - Faith vs Science' ie You are the apologian defending your faith, I represent science. If you want everyone on here to agree, then you'd have one thread that ran something like: HorizonEast: 'God did it all, in 6 days'. Fresnjoe: 'I agree. Praise Jesus'! There would be no need, nor, indeed, any point, in continuing. I am not attacking your faith. Indeed, if I did, and let off full bore, I'd be a lot less kind than I am being. But I do care about science, and the truth that it reveals. This is an absolute truth, not a metaphysical truth. I do not, and never have, talked about rocks turning into babies. Indeed, no scientist ever has, as far as I am aware. I talk about evolution, and defend it, because I can see the evidence with my eyes. I talk about geology, becasue I have expertise in that area. What science reveals is so amazing and astonishing, that it is incapable of being fully understood by the human brain. It puts me in awe as much as your God does you. You, on the other hand, would be telling me that water wasn't wet, if it happened to conflict with a verse in the bible. To me, your attitude is really sad, because it prevents you from seeing the true wonder of the Universe. You are allowed to see the world in front of you, accept what it tells you, and still believe in your God. Most Christians do this without any problem at all. Hi Dave, Yes science is very interesting, and awe inspiring, but what is even more awe inspiring is the God who created all the laws of nature which science can observe. Science observes and tests what our awsome Heavenly Father created. I ask you to be open minded and consider the possibility that many scientific theories could be false. Most of them are based on big assumptions, and then taught as if they are proven facts. Is it possible that you don't know everything and that maybe the truths behind the creation are not part of the knowledge that you do have? I am not trying to insult you. I know that I don't know everything also. I used to be an athiest, and I grew up believing in evolution. Then when I finally believed in God, I thought he used evolution to create the universe. However, after more study, trying to put it all together, I ran into many things in the evolution theory that just don't add up. Either side you look at takes faith to believe in and so they are both religion. Evolution is not science. It is a theory which relies on faith. There is evidence that appears to support it, but upon further scientific study, all the evidence that points to evolution has been proven false. But evolutionists and athiest choose to plug their ears and cover their eyes to it. Basically I believe..."IN THE BEGINNING GOD...." AND You believe..."IN THE BEGINNING DIRT...." I challenge you to give me evidence that supports evolution and I will show you where it has already been proven false or that the alternative creation by God can work as well. love in Christ, Tom