Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Thaddaeus]

JB Horn,

"He redeemed, made righteous every human being" you really believe that, do you believe that you were born righteous?

That is what the Bible and Christianity has believed, practiced since Pentacost. I am born mortal since man still suffers the consequences of Adam's judgement and I will die. But death is no longer a permanent end of man. Christ redeemed mankind from death, from that bondage to the judgment through Adam.

So, yes, in a real sense I am immortal. I cannot permanently die. No man will. Christ through the Incarnation, assumed man's human nature to raise it to immortality. The question is which side of eternity will you spend your immortal eternal life, heaven or hell.

Come on now my good friend you were faithful before you could believe?

How can one be faithful in their faith and belief before they believe? Isn't any wonder you have things turned around.

I don't think we will agree to what our purpose of our existence is.

That may be. So, what in your view, is the purpose of man's existance in this created order?

Read John 6 again and tell me it says all mankind is going to come to Christ.

Again, you have things turned around. It is all about Christ's redemptive work. It is about Christ enabling us to believe. He needed to correct the fall, which precluded anyone believing. We were under the judgment of death through Adam. Death, by defintion is the separation of body and soul. This death is the end of man as a human being. We were not created to just end in death, cease to exist. Mankind needed life, in order to even believe. That is the enabling. That is the Work of Christ on the Cross through His Incarnation. That was the primary function, but Christ also needed to attone for the sins of the world, so that He could have union and communion with man in this life while still remaining in a fallen nature, and still able to sin.

Now where do stand on the person in China that has never heard the Word and dies. Does he or she fall within your last statement?

God created every man with the ability to respond. Each will respond and be responsible to the measure in which He was granted that grace. Read Rom 1 and 2. Paul is quite precise and exact how the man in China is covered.

Do you really think that Christ came for only those since His death and resurrection, and or know of the Gospel?

That is why, those that have recieved and heard the Gospel, they will suffer much greater for their rejection than those who did not recieve that gospel, as the aborigines 4000 years ago.

[JB Horn]

JB Horn,

"He redeemed, made righteous every human being" you really believe that, do you believe that you were born righteous?

That is what the Bible and Christianity has believed, practiced since Pentacost. I am born mortal since man still suffers the consequences of Adam's judgement and I will die. But death is no longer a permanent end of man. Christ redeemed mankind from death, from that bondage to the judgment through Adam.

So, yes, in a real sense I am immortal. I cannot permanently die. No man will. Christ through the Incarnation, assumed man's human nature to raise it to immortality. The question is which side of eternity will you spend your immortal eternal life, heaven or hell.

Come on now my good friend you were faithful before you could believe?

How can one be faithful in their faith and belief before they believe? Isn't any wonder you have things turned around.

I don't think we will agree to what our purpose of our existence is.

That may be. So, what in your view, is the purpose of man's existance in this created order?

Read John 6 again and tell me it says all mankind is going to come to Christ.

Again, you have things turned around. It is all about Christ's redemptive work. It is about Christ enabling us to believe. He needed to correct the fall, which precluded anyone believing. We were under the judgment of death through Adam. Death, by defintion is the separation of body and soul. This death is the end of man as a human being. We were not created to just end in death, cease to exist. Mankind needed life, in order to even believe. That is the enabling. That is the Work of Christ on the Cross through His Incarnation. That was the primary function, but Christ also needed to attone for the sins of the world, so that He could have union and communion with man in this life while still remaining in a fallen nature, and still able to sin.

Now where do stand on the person in China that has never heard the Word and dies. Does he or she fall within your last statement?

God created every man with the ability to respond. Each will respond and be responsible to the measure in which He was granted that grace. Read Rom 1 and 2. Paul is quite precise and exact how the man in China is covered.

Do you really think that Christ came for only those since His death and resurrection, and or know of the Gospel?

That is why, those that have recieved and heard the Gospel, they will suffer much greater for their rejection than those who did not recieve that gospel, as the aborigines 4000 years ago.

We study a deferent Gospel Thaddaeus, have a nice weekend.

God Bless

JB

Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: For this reason I raised you up: so that I may display My power in you, and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth. 18 So then, He shows mercy to whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills.

[JB Horn]

cardcaptor

This is why Christ said to, "Search the scriptures" and Paul said to "Study to show thyself approved rightly dividing the word".

Can you un-believe?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

" he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit," Titus 3:5

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit," Ephesians 1:13

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Can you un-believe?

By Grace alone

JB

[Thaddaeus]

JB Horn,

Can you un-believe?

The texts you quoted all state emphatically that it is not anything that man can do to save Himself. The saving referred to in each one is the saving from the fall. It has absolutely nothing to do with the relationship man had with God before the fall. We were enabled, by Christ's Work on the Cross, to be able to not just have an earthly union or communion with Him, but for an eternity. That choice was given back to man having been taken away by Adam. We enter that union by faith, we are saved through faith. Since it is a free choice, we can surely leave that union at any time. We surely are not saved by unbelief, we are not save through unfaithfulness.

Here is just a very short sampling of the texts where it specifically states believers can and do lose faith, or where faith is charged to us to maintain, to keep, to endure, to not all away.

1 Timothy 5:12 - Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. Explanation: The word for cast off also means despise, reject, bring to nothing, to do away with, to set aside, disregard, nullify, make void. Clearly, their faith is no good anymore, and they will be condemned at the last day. These people become spiritually dead.

1 Timothy 5:15 - For some have already turned aside after Satan. Explanation: They no longer followed Christ. To come to Christ is not a one-time deal and it is all over with. You can turn aside after Satan just like these people did.

2 Timothy 2:11-13 - This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He will also deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. Explanation: The word "if" is a primary particle of conditionality. Clearly, this makes our final salvation conditional. To endure means to suffer, to preserve under misfortunes and trials, to hold fast to one's faith in Christ, bear bravely and calmly ill treatments. We must endure through whatever comes our way all the way until we die with Him in our lives, then we will live and reign with Him. "he who endures to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 24:13). If we wind up denying Him before the time of our death, you can't get around the word of God here, He will also deny us. At the end here in 2:13 where it says He remains faithful, that is not meaning He remains faithful to those who are faithless and denying Him. It means He remains faithful to His word, you can't get around it, because He cannot deny Himself. People should not water-down the word of God by saying that this means He remains faithful to the faithless or to someone who does not endure with Him till death. It does not say that. He cannot deny Himself, is what it says, not He won't deny you if you are faithless

Heb 3:12 - Beware brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the Living God! But exhort one another daily while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." Explanation: This verse explicitly states the very fact that is does happen, not just might happen. We are to exhort each other to remain faithful. Willful, consistant sinning sears the conscience and hardens one's heart. One cannot have disbelief, if one did not have belief.

Hebrews 4:14 - Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. Explanation: Again, if there is no danger of losing it, why the admonition over and over, to hold fast.

I Pet 1:9 - Resist him, (the devil) steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. Explanation: Be vigilant, sober vs 8, the devil can devour you. Again, so many warnings to be faithful, to be vigilant that it seems impossible to miss these warnings about our faith which can be lost. Faith saves, and if it can be lost, then OSAS is a false gospel. We need to stay alert, steadfast with our faith, lest we do not inherit eternal life. No guarantees of God regarding man's responsibility and obligations in the mutual relationship.

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

1 Peter 1:5-9 - who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time... receiving the end of your faith -- the salvation of your souls.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 5:12 Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.

1 Timothy 5:15 For some have already turned aside after Satan.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Revelation 2:5-7 - "Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place -- unless you repent... He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."

Not a single verse of the above is speaking to any other than christian beleivers. Since there are only two categories, one is either a believer or an unbeliever, it could not possibly be speaking to anyone who cannot fall, cannot lose faith cannot become unfaithful. These are just a sampling of texts. There are in the range of about 200 in the NT alone. Every single Book, except 2 have somekind of exhortation to keep the faith. Man will be judged on his faith. On what He did, not on what God did.

The biggest error of OSAS proponents is that they make God's promises, man's promises. Yet it is these exhortations that are addressed to man, not to God. God is not like these verses above. He will not waver, He will not forsake, it is man that does this, and thus it is man that will be held accountable, not God.

[JB Horn]

Thaddaeus

I understand that you believe that the Holy Ghost that lives in each Christian's heart will let you do as you want. And I know you don't believe that it is the Father that enables you to come to Christ. And I understand that if your child ran away from you that you would stop loving him. I know that you feel that you have to work your way to heaven and that you're a righteous man. You've told me all of that.

And I know you read the Bible out of context:

1 Tim 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under three score years old, having been the wife of one man. 10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work. 11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. 13 And with they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. 14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. 15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

2 Tim 2:10

[Thaddaeus]

Thaddaeus,

I understand that you believe that the Holy Ghost that lives in each Christian's heart will let you do as you want. And I know you don't believe that it is the Father that enables you to come to Christ. And I understand that if your child ran away from you that you would stop loving him. I know that you feel that you have to work your way to heaven and that you're a righteous man. You've told me all of that.

It is quite obvious by your paraphrasing that you have no understanding of what I described. The texts you used to supposedly refute what I had stated, just further emphasize the obvious.

You simply want God to do man's part. You want God to renege on His own Sovereign will and design of the created purpose of man in His created order. Your concept of the fall and the salvation from the fall do not correlate. You do not correlate that what we were created to do as His creatures, is what we were restored to due to the fall. Christ corrected the fall. All else remained the same as ot intent and purpose.

You should be spending your time doing your earthly chores to earn your slot in heaven.

I praise God that I am not in the law.

Again, a total misunderstanding of salvation, the fall, and the creation of man in God's design.

If you really believe that you can give yourself to Christ one day and not believe in Him the next then you win the argument!

I do believe it only because it is quite obvious in scripture. It has also been the understanding of Christianity since Pentacost. If you can show otherwise, you might have more credibility.

[JB Horn]

Thaddaeus

If you really believe that you can give yourself to Christ one day and not believe in Him the next then you win the argument!

I do believe it only because it is quite obvious in scripture. It has also been the understanding of Christianity since Pentacost. If you can show otherwise, you might have more credibility.

There you go! You win!

Then it was never "eternal life", "everlasting covenant" OK and you can be "un-regenerated", funny.

So have you ever un-believed or have you been sinless sense you came to Christ. Just asking cause I was wondering how many times a person can be born again.

I need some white out to update my copy.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jude 1:24, 25 Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

cardcaptor

I didn't get your answer "can you un-believe? "

[Ovedya]

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

If we don't obey the gospel then that is what we have to look forward to.

This verse does not speak of two categories of persons, but of one. That category is "them that know not God." This verse is contrasted with "those who believe," in verse 10: "When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that day."

...Just thought I'd point that out.

[JB Horn]

Thaddaeus, cardcaptor

As I read back on you post it has become clear that you deny Christ to be God could it be that you read the NWT. If so I see your hang up in the reconstruction of John.

John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (NWT)

Should read:

John 1:1

[HolyHands]

Romans 11:29 - "For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable".

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish: no-one can snatch them out of my hand"

I believe that this means...

noone cand remove us from Gods hand, but we can remove ourselves.

AMEN!