Moral Absolutism

[redeemed098]

If something is wrong, why is it wrong? Is it that everyone should decide for themselves what is wrong, and to what degreee?

Point 1:

I, as the most prominent ethical theorists would agree, think that every person has an obligation to evaluate every situation that they are presented with themselves. Due to a change of circumstances, simple rules must be reevaluated.

Justification of Point 1:

This is for the reason of combating the failings of moral absolutes. General rules like, "Thou shalt not steal," work in almost all circumstances. Sometimes, as has been noted, you have a moral obligation to break these rules. Even God breaks his own commandments (thou shalt not kill) by ordering murder (Deuteronomy 17:12, Leviticus 20:27, Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Zechariah 13:3, etc.). Even Jesus breaks a rule of God's (Leviticus 20:10) by letting a woman who commits adultery live (John 8:9).

Point 2:

We do not need rules to know the difference between right and wrong.

Justification of Point2.

The capability to understand the difference between right and wrong is something that all sane individuals possess regardless of their religion or background. (see Insanity) Our capability to understand and apply our understanding to a situation defines us as "good" or "bad" people.

Many people who commit murder quote bible verses as justification. When there is a conflict between two moral "absolutes" which one is "right?"

ethical atheist,

.......I will not listen to you any longer for one basic reason....

You are an atheist and you are using the word of God which you do not believe to BE the word of God as your attempt to justify your premise...You have severely brought yourself undone by doing this. You cannot use what you do NOT believe in as justification for NOT BELIEVING......Can you not see how totally futile and stupid that is....?

How can you make claims of what God has said or done when you dont even believe he exists..??.. How dare you claim that God murders....

Point to take note of ethical atheist....When God kills, it is justified....it is not murder....Murder is UNjustifiable killing. God does not care whether YOU think it is justified or not..The Unrepentant sinner think its ok to do everything that God has said NOT to do. Of Course you will try to condemn God by justifying yourself...That is what an unrepentant sinner DOES.

Do not again use the word of God to usurp the authority of God by demonstrating that you even have a clue as to what it says. You cannot use as your evidence for unbelief that which you do NOT believe in. How dare you say theres no God and then back it up by using his Word against him....who do you think you are....???? God...??

I am Totally sick and tired of watching people spit on the God who gave them life and disguising their motives and intents as honourable and ethical.... I've Had enough......!! Ive had enough in particular of people who do not believe the bible is the word of God, using it as evidence that its NOT. And Ive had enough of people pretending.....Dont hide your motive.....I dont...I'm here to tell you about Jesus and him crucified...That is all...Your salvation is all that matters. Im not interested in your philosophical pretenses and ideologies. Im interested in uncompromised Truth.

And above all else, never forget this.....YOU do not judge the Word of God....IT will judge YOU. It is the very standard by which YOUR life will be measured. You do NOT test the bible against another standard....The bible IS the standard by which all things are tested. Your conscience doesnt determine between what is right and wrong. Your conscience merely commends you or convicts you in your decision making processes..Those decisions are still made according to a standard. Your conscience is therefore correct when your conscience commends you or convicts you in line with the Truth of Gods Word. Paul himself believed it was OK to persecute the followers of Christ....His conscience told him this was an acceptable thing to do...Was his conscience right in commending his decision to persecute..??.....No it was not....His conscience was seered...He could not make decisions according to the truth of Gods Word because he was still blind to it. His eyes had to be opened before he could see the error of his ways.....When he received his revelation of Christ on the road to Damascus everything changed. His conscience was now being led by the Truth of Gods Word. He was being commended or convicted in his decisionmaking with the Word of God AS the standard of what is morally right and morally wrong.

Until YOUR eyes are opened EA, your decisionmaking will be led by a seered conscience also. When all is said and done EA, the Lord is the final examiner. No philosophy or ideology will alter a thing. The Truth will reveal ALL. Not mans truth...Gods Truth. You are unable to redraw new boundary lines EA....They have already been drawn FOR you. Even attempting to move them a little is futile...God does not change...His standard for judgement does not change either...How could he possibly judge anyone if they have no idea what the standard IS...???? He is a perfectly righteous and Just God...His justice is perfect. Every decision he makes is perfect. Therefore his judgement of YOU will be perfectly RIGHT...According to HIS standard, not yours. He has written his laws on our hearts and on our minds, and he has placed eternity in the heart of every man. That is why we think beyond this life in the first place.

Think about these things.

Regards,

Ben.

[ethical.atheist]

You are an atheist and you are using the word of God which you do not believe to BE the word of God as your attempt to justify your premise...You have severely brought yourself undone by doing this. You cannot use what you do NOT believe in as justification for NOT BELIEVING......Can you not see how totally futile and stupid that is....?

I am using the bible as an example of a moral absolute. I wish you would discuss with me rather than making excuses.

How can you make claims of what God has said or done when you dont even believe he exists..??.. How dare you claim that God murders....

Man.. just read the verses I gave. They are examples of God condoning killing. Go on... I'll wait.

Of Course you will try to condemn God by justifying yourself...That is what an unrepentant sinner DOES.

What are you talking about?

How dare you say theres no God and then back it up by using his Word against him....who do you think you are....???? God...??

I think you have missed something. I have never said that there is no God. I am agnostic. I am unsure of the existence of God. Please don't assume things about people... It isn't nice.

And Ive had enough of people pretending.....Dont hide your motive.....I dont...I'm here to tell you about Jesus and him crucified...That is all...Your salvation is all that matters. Im not interested in your philosophical pretenses and ideologies. Im interested in uncompromised Truth.

Hey... I am interested in Truth too. If you don't see that your statement carries exactly the same weight as mine, I suggest you discontinue any discussion of ethics with me and stop reading my posts. I fear there is no way to relate to you.

YOU do not judge the Word of God....IT will judge YOU. It is the very standard by which YOUR life will be measured. You do NOT test the bible against another standard....The bible IS the standard by which all things are tested.

There is not reason to get so excited. If you are trying to convince me that i should listen to what you have to say, the caps lock isn't helping. I would not question God, but I do question material presented to me by man which is supposed to be the word of God. If God had a chat with me, I promise that I would be all ears.

When all is said and done EA, the Lord is the final examiner.

So who are you to judge me?

Think about these things.

I would, but it so hard to think about hard line commands without any evidence or backup.

If you want to capture your audience, my friend, you must first understand them. Without that, you will only anger them and drive them farther away from this "Truth."

[Floatingaxe]

YOU do not judge the Word of God....IT will judge YOU. It is the very standard by which YOUR life will be measured. You do NOT test the bible against another standard....The bible IS the standard by which all things are tested.

Absolutely! You said it, brother! What a day that day of reckoning will be... and these times of interaction on these boards where the truth was spoonfed or "shovelfed" in large doses will be one of the measures! Amen.

May the dull eyes be opened in Jesus' Holy name.

[CSLewis]

As christians we really need to be careful not to judge. I have to remind myself constantly. I think Jesus summed it up with one word- Love. And from the love of Christ comes light that can repel all darkness. It has less to do with what we can see than what is in the heart of the person- whom only God can judge. In many instances even though someone has hurt me - I can look back and see that it was I who was living in darkness unable to forgive. It didn't matter that they could or couldn't be held responsible - the darkness was still there. Until I traveled deep within and let go and allowed the Holy Spirit to fill me with light I could not forgive. Once I did- I felt a more complete person. I was able to be here for someone else.

[ethical.atheist]

CSLewis, although we seem to see the world from different views, I have so much respect for your words.

Although you most likely disagree with me, I think that we have a lot in common.

Thanks for chiming in.

[CSLewis]

Thank you for your kind words.

I hope that you will always keep your spark for knowledge and don't shut out and close your mind to the cross. If you really read the Gospel of Christ - not the words alone but the underlying meaning and story- yu may find liberation from all darkness- I think He seeks a relationship with you - and think you sell yourself short.

As you read may you come to the realization that the Bible is not about rules and regulations, nor science and history, but is a spiritual book - one that will help you become whole in Christ Jesus.

peace

CSLewis

[redeemed098]

You are an atheist and you are using the word of God which you do not believe to BE the word of God as your attempt to justify your premise...You have severely brought yourself undone by doing this. You cannot use what you do NOT believe in as justification for NOT BELIEVING......Can you not see how totally futile and stupid that is....?

I am using the bible as an example of a moral absolute. I wish you would discuss with me rather than making excuses.

How can you make claims of what God has said or done when you dont even believe he exists..??.. How dare you claim that God murders....

Man.. just read the verses I gave. They are examples of God condoning killing. Go on... I'll wait.

Of Course you will try to condemn God by justifying yourself...That is what an unrepentant sinner DOES.

What are you talking about?

How dare you say theres no God and then back it up by using his Word against him....who do you think you are....???? God...??

I think you have missed something. I have never said that there is no God. I am agnostic. I am unsure of the existence of God. Please don't assume things about people... It isn't nice.

And Ive had enough of people pretending.....Dont hide your motive.....I dont...I'm here to tell you about Jesus and him crucified...That is all...Your salvation is all that matters. Im not interested in your philosophical pretenses and ideologies. Im interested in uncompromised Truth.

Hey... I am interested in Truth too. If you don't see that your statement carries exactly the same weight as mine, I suggest you discontinue any discussion of ethics with me and stop reading my posts. I fear there is no way to relate to you.

YOU do not judge the Word of God....IT will judge YOU. It is the very standard by which YOUR life will be measured. You do NOT test the bible against another standard....The bible IS the standard by which all things are tested.

There is not reason to get so excited. If you are trying to convince me that i should listen to what you have to say, the caps lock isn't helping. I would not question God, but I do question material presented to me by man which is supposed to be the word of God. If God had a chat with me, I promise that I would be all ears.

When all is said and done EA, the Lord is the final examiner.

So who are you to judge me?

Think about these things.

I would, but it so hard to think about hard line commands without any evidence or backup.

If you want to capture your audience, my friend, you must first understand them. Without that, you will only anger them and drive them farther away from this "Truth."

Two points...You call yourself "ethical atheist". Please excuse me for thinking that you do not believe in God. Most atheists dont..You might consider changing your name to ethical agnostic. No one assumes an atheist is an agnostic.

The next point...You cannot drive anyone further from the truth...The truth is that we are all sinners. To hear this might anger you, but that is a good thing...You see the revelation that we are sinners is not something that can be received with politeness and gentleness. There is no kind way to tell a person that he is dead to God in his sins and transgressions.....If anyone is telling you a gospel message that you like the sound of EA, then Im terribly sorry, the message you are hearing is NOT the message of the gospel of Christ. You may feel offence and you may feel as though you are being judged EA, but this is the response from someone who doesnt want to believe he IS a sinner in need of salvation. This is the response of a person who believes he is a good enough person withOUT God. He lacks the intellectual integrity to apply the same standards to his own belief system that he applies to anothers. I have no qualms with people believing my faith is futile. I'm with Paul on that one. My faith has been totally futile if Christ has not been raised from death. I am willing to admit the total futility of my faith if in fact there IS no God. Im yet to meet an atheist who will offer the same level of integrity and admit to the total futility of his atheism if in fact there IS.

Finally EA, the purpose of these boards are not to attract people and feed them some nice medicine. It is to share the message of the gospel of Christ and the good news of Gods salvation. If I was to share anything LESS than truth with you, I would be doing you a great injustice and would be clearly demonstrating that the Love of Christ is not in me. Im not afraid of what you might think of ME EA....Im not interested in being your friend.....Im interested in being your BROTHER.

God does not murder either EA....He might kill, but he does not murder...If God kills it is justified. Murder is UNjustifiable killing.

Picture a doctor performing surgery on a man riddled with cancer throughout his entire body...Should the doctor leave some of the cancer there so it can grow back again...??

Or should he remove ALL of it....??

God removes what needs to be removed....Evil begets evil EA.......God is focused on ridding the world of evil.......Evil is NOT what man determines it to be EA....Evil is the consequence of rebellion to God. Where you see evil, you will see rebellion toward God....Toward what....?? Toward Gods standard of what it is to be Holy. Toward Gods standard of what it is to be righteous.....The man who believes he is too "good" to be damned EA, usually justifies his own actions by condemning God. By that I mean calling "Good" that which God calls Evil.

God is perfectly right in all of his decisionmaking EA...Regardless of what anyone thinks. What ever happens to a person and wherever a person spends eternity will be perfectly RIGHT.

Noone can discuss with you the issue of sin EA...You have to receive revelation..Until you do, trying to accuse one of pushing one further from truth is just a shallow excuse for feeling offense. Dont get angry...Repent...Be baptised in the name of Jesus for the remission of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. You will receive eyes to see and ears to hear. This is the only scripture I have shared with you EA as it is the most powerful and Truthful way to reveal to you your current spiritual state of being in the sight of God. A sinner in need of the saviour.

You cannot be any further Lost to God than LOST...One is either walking in Truth or he is not. There are no half truths, there is no kingdom of grey...There are only two kingdoms...The kingdom of Light, and the kingdom of darkness.....EA....Right now this very instant, regardless of what you might think or believe, you are already serving one of these two kingdoms...And from all I have seen from your posts, it is not the kingdom of Light. Youre just another one of those people who think that you are too good to be damned. You place your own goodness ahead of Gods, and thus make yourself the standard. Im not assuming either EA....That is not something that you are able to grasp. Im not judging you...Im telling you the Truth. You need to look at Gods standard and judge yourself. Start asking yourself the real questions....

"Am I really a sinner who is lost to God..??"

"Am I really a "good" person..??"

"What is the standard of what it truly is to be good..??"

"Have I really fallen short of that standard...??"

"Are the wages of sin death...??"

"Did Jesus really die for those sins..??"

"Why would he do that for me...??"

"Why would I not want to receive Gods forgiveness...??"

"Am I too proud to admit that Im a sinner...??"

"Will not believing in Jesus and what he accomplished alter the Truth of what he did...??"

Just a few questions to ponder EA......If I have to EA, Ill shout it from the rooftops, but you will never be left guessing with me. I refuse to share anything LESS than Truth with you. If that is what you want, then I would have to say nothing to you or lie. Outside of the word of God I have nothing to offer you except for my own intellect EA, and that certainly does not have the power to save you. Only Christ does. That is why Paul spoke these words...

"I speak not to you with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."

If you want me to put on airs and graces with you EA, I wont do it...Not because Im proud or arrogant, and not because Im self righteous...I am neither of those things....

But because I refuse to compromise Truth. One step of compromise leads to two...Im not here to make you feel good EA. Im here to tell you the Truth of Jesus and what he did for you...Though you may be ignorant to these things right now, Im certain that one day you will be saved...God would not have brought you here otherwise. This is just another step in your journey toward him...Even if you cannot see this.

Regards,

Ben.

[ethical.atheist]

Two points...You call yourself "ethical atheist". Please excuse me for thinking that you do not believe in God. Most atheists dont..You might consider changing your name to ethical agnostic. No one assumes an atheist is an agnostic.

Atheist. n. One without belief in God.

Agnosticism is a type of atheism. If you don't know about there being a God... You don't have a belief in one. You are an atheist. Why are people so scared of that word?

If I was to share anything LESS than truth with you, I would be doing you a great injustice and would be clearly demonstrating that the Love of Christ is not in me. Im not afraid of what you might think of ME EA....

I may have my questions, but I am very familiar with the teachings of Jesus. Now answer me this... do you think Jesus would use the caps lock? Would he yell at me? Don't you think he would be civil? I do.

God does not murder either EA....He might kill, but he does not murder...If God kills it is justified. Murder is UNjustifiable killing.

I never said God murders anyone. Where are you getting this?

God is perfectly right in all of his decisionmaking EA...Regardless of what anyone thinks. What ever happens to a person and wherever a person spends eternity will be perfectly RIGHT.

No one is saying that God is wrong. If you were paying attention, I am questioning the Bible and it's moral absolutes. God does not necessarily = bible.

Noone can discuss with you the issue of sin EA...

Cool! Can we leave it be then?

You cannot be any further Lost to God than LOST...One is either walking in Truth or he is not. There are no half truths, there is no kingdom of grey...There are only two kingdoms...The kingdom of Light, and the kingdom of darkness.....EA....Right now this very instant, regardless of what you might think or believe, you are already serving one of these two kingdoms...And from all I have seen from your posts, it is not the kingdom of Light.

You are a terrifying individual. You are the kind guy who would invade Switzerland in world war II since they weren't on "our" side. You have judged me over and over again. It is a shame that you can look down on those who ask questions. It is those who ask questions that awarded you with the freedom to practice your religion, regardless of the king. It is those who ask questions that save us from tyranny.

Ill shout it from the rooftops, but you will never be left guessing with me.

I wish you would see that this will make no one listen. The louder you scream something, the faster people plug their ears.

Im here to tell you the Truth of Jesus and what he did for you...

Well I would normally be happy to discuss these things with you, but will you please stop hijacking my threads! I promise to read every word you type to me so long as you promise to keep your responses related to the topic. Just tell me what thread you want to yell at me in and I'll be happy to discuss whatever you desire!

[Observer of dreams]

Moral absolute, this falls in step with cultural subjectivism.

Subjectivism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Subjectivism is a philosophical tenet that accords primacy to subjective experiences as fundament of all measure and law. In an extreme form, it may hold that the nature and existence of every object depends only on someone's subjective awareness of it. For example, Wittgenstein wrote in Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus: "The subject doesn't belong to the world, but it is a limit of the world" (proposition 5.632). One may also consider the qualified empiricism of George Berkeley in this context, given his reliance on God as the prime mover of human perception.

If there were no universal moral code than everyones moral beliefs would be correct. Next is a re-post from me on this subject.

I think a lesson in Ethics is in order here, if only for a select few.

There is a theory out called "cultural relativism" This theory states that there is no universal right or wrong. It goes on to say that all moral values are different from culture to culture. Here is an example;

There was a Greek and a Callation talking amoungst each other and discussing their various traditions. During the conversation the Greek mentions that they cremate their dead, "Absolutly disgusting!" Says the Callation. "Well" Says the Greek "What are your practices for honoring the dead?" To which the Callation responds, "We devour them into us so that their spirit might be with us always." To which the Greek replies, "Absolutly disgusting!"

The problem with the theory of cultural relativism is that it is inductive, and it assumes that morals are based on beliefs rather than values. The Greek and the Callation both value the dead and seek to honor them, but their BELIEFS as to how to do it is what seperates them.

Also it is not to say that one of them was mistaken in the first place. For instance take that same argument but replace it with the Earth. The Callation thinks the Earth is round, yet the Greek thinks it's flat. We know that the Earth is round so the Greek must be mistaken in this case.

A further point. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie. Take these 3 laws from the bible. if murdering was acceptable a society would not exsist for long, and if it did last noone would feel secure leaving their house, and they would most likey form their own "gangs" so they could be safe, but even in this gang killing then becomes unacceptable. You would also not be able to rely on anyone for anything if lying were acceptable. I couldn't even trust that someone gave me the right time if I asked, and Talking would become totally pointless. The same is true for stealing, at least as far as trusting those around us.

My point is that the laws of God are the rule not the exception. If there were no universal right or wrong then Hitler could say it was a good thing to kill jews and be correct, the south could say slavery was ok and be right, and noone could utter a word against Darfur because that would be acceptable as well. Not only that, but we also could not condemn our own moral code as a society because they would all be right as well. The rights of women and blacks being allowed to vote, homosexuals in the military, abolition of slavery. None of these would have happened had it not been for someone within our society holding himself/herself to a higher moral standard than that of the people around them.

[ethical.atheist]

Moral absolute, this falls in step with cultural subjectivism.

[snipped big blurb for the sake of space]

I think you have the wrong idea of cultural subjectivism. Cultural subjectivism says that actions are right and wrong based on that culture which is evaluating them. So, as a member of a Northern Minnesota culture, it is wrong for me to lay at the beach nude. It would be fine for me to do this on many beaches in Hawaii.

Kantianism on the other hand argues that right and wrong is defined by intention. If you intend to do good to your best ability, no matter what accidental consequences, you can do no wrong. There are, of course, implied limits to this situation. Kant encourages understanding of the far-reaching effects of decisions. Like lying might be a good idea now, it may reduce general trust among people over time.

According to Kant, one must constantly evaluate ethical situations since new, undocumented situations will arise.

I just remembered a fun little story of a moral absolute gone awry.

Imagine you work as part of the underground railroad (help slaves to freedom). Most everyone would view this as a very good thing to do... right? ...at the time, this was considered stealing since the slaves were someone else's property.

Well, one night when you have a few slaves hiding in your basement, the sheriff comes by on a tip that you are hiding slaves. He comes to your door and asks, "Are you hiding any negros?" Would you be wrong to lie to him? If you don't, you will forfeit the lives of the innocent people you were trying to save and most likely your own.

I would say that I have a moral obligation to tell a lie to the best of my ability. I'd even feel obligated to risk my life if my lie failed to convince the sheriff.