Creation in 6 literal Days

[Guest]

Dear Brother Forrest

The Lord Jesus Christ is your savior.

You and I are both blessed with a son.

How-be-it mine is a lot older and not as good looking as yours is!

Forrest, what do you say we should teach our sons about God and man?

And, where should we get our teachings from?

Who is God?

Who is Jesus?

What did Jesus save man from?

If it is "sin", what is "sin" and how did "sin" come into the world?

How does Jesus save?

Is Jesus the only way to salvation?

What will happen to people, if any, who are not saved by Jesus?

What will happen to this earth and cosmos?

Where do we point our sons to as our source of Truth about Jesus and God?

Dad to dad, I would love to understand what my brother-in-Christ thinks we should teach our children about Jesus!

Again, we could take this discussion into the "men's only" section at Worthy if you wish.

[spiritman]

Noah is mentioned in most churches several times a year. That does not mean that there was a literal worldwide flood however. The story of Noah's ark is widely considered to be based on a flood of the Tigris and Euphrates. It would have been a flood as far as the eye could see and would have lasted for some time.

Ok, you have posted your oppinion, but lets look what the Bible says.

You act as though I am just coming up with this off the top of my head. Evolution, the age of the Universe, that is peer reviewed science. The impossibility of a global flood, and the total lack of evidence of one, that is science. The fact that known archeological evidence contradicts many literal accounts in the Old Testament. That is archeology. The fact that some passages in scripture were not in the earliest manuscripts. That is a fact. The notion that much of the Old Testament is allegorical and not literal. Not just my opinion. It the opinion of many of the world's theologians, bible archeologists, and even Jewish scholars. If anyone would know, it would seem that Jewish scholars would.

A lot of people cannot hold the blind faith that you seem to hold. Many of us require reason to fall into the equation as well. One can only reasonable conclude that much the Old Testament is allegorical. If we disagree thats fine. Your refusal to even accept that Christians can reasonably disagree is unfortunate, but despite the passion of your argument, we are not going to agree and well thats ok. Just because you don't seem to see how one could be a believing Christian and not see creation as literal, does not mean that for others it is a conflicting viewpoint.

Hi Forest,

I checked out your web page, I enjoyed it. Forest I've noticed that you speak alot about Scientific evidence, but I see very little in evidence that you have posted, could you please post some? Forest it is important for a Christian to take the Bible literally, because if they don't, then, the question arises, If one part of the Bible isn't true, then perhaps the rest isn't true either.

It is also important to note, for those that don't believe literal creation has anything to do with salvation, that as Wade pointed out, and Jime, there are several scriptures that Jesus Himself quoted from the old Testament. If Jesus quoted from an inaccurate source, then that would make Him a liar; and that's never the truth. For Jesus said " I'am the way the truth and the life". John 14:6.

Forest, Satan is using these so called scholars, to lie to you, and the rest of us. 2 Timothy 4:3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; KJV

2Timothy 4:3: For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. NLT

You need to entertain the possiblity, that these scholars are lying to people in order to bring forth the New World Order. This is a time when Christians or Christianity will be banned.

The Book of Daniel, and Revelation speaks about this. If you think it's bad now with these people lying to us, just wait until the anti-Christ will gain power, he will claim that he is God. and we know that is a lie.

And as far as just because science can't know something it is not true goes; you know just 200 years ago, science didn't know anything about protons, but now they do. So is it possible, that several years from now science just might find out, what we as Christians already know?. but by then it will be too late!!!..

The old earth creation is a false doctrine, we have proven that by scripture, Please come back to the truth, and repent.

[forrestkc]

Dear Brother Forrest

The Lord Jesus Christ is your savior.

You and I are both blessed with a son.

How-be-it mine is a lot older and not as good looking as yours is!

You must have visited our family website. I have to admit, that makes me feel good. You are the first person I know of to visit it other than my wife's family. I probably should update it if more people are going to visit ;-).

Forrest, what do you say we should teach our sons about God and man?

And, where should we get our teachings from?

First and formost that Christ died for his sins. Which we have already tried to go into as much as one can with a 6 year old. The Bible would be the primary source for learning about God. That said, the tail end of the litergy he catches at church probably helps out a little as well.

Who is God?

The one true God, the maker of heaven and earth.

Who is Jesus?

The only Son of God,

eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made,

of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

What did Jesus save man from?

For us and for our salvation

he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,

and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in accordance with the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I started to just write that out, but as I was doing it, I noticed I was just paraphrasing the Nicene Creed anyway so being that it is exactly what I believe, I might as well just post it as my response.

[JIME]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_civilization

Unfortunately, the sources you are using for your argument are NOT RELIABLE SOURCES!!

Wikipedia is run by volunteers and the information there is not screened for its accuracy and anyone can submit information. This was reported on NPR: Assessing Wikipedia's Accuracy.

So, please supply a more reliable source.

Thank you

Edited December 18, 2006 by JIME

[forrestkc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_civilization

Unfortunately, the sources you are using for your argument are NOT RELIABLE SOURCES!!

Wikipedia is run by volunteers and the information there is not screened for its accuracy and anyone can submit information. This was reported on NPR: Assessing Wikipedia's Accuracy.

So, please supply a more reliable source.

Thank you

In terms of current events, Wikipedia is not always accurate. However, in terms of science. It is a very reliable source (the Journal Nature did a study on it not to long ago). If you will notice, science articles on Wikipedia are always footnoted, usually to peer reviewed journals. So if you wanted to know the accuracy of any claims all you must do is look at the footnotes at the bottom of the article.

If you will look all the way through this thread, especially back to my first posts in it, I cited peer reviewed journals for my claims relative to the age of the earth, the onset of man, and evolution.

As there is not a shred of peer reviewed science to support any literalist creationist notions, it would be impossible for its proponents to do the same.

[spiritman]

CAN THE WORD OF GOD BE TRUSTED?

Sorry but this is kind of long, but my point was to prove that the Word of God, can infact be trusted and these are only about the Messiah. There are many more prophecies fulfilled in the Old Testament for those who will take time to read them.

From Josephus (First Century Historian): Antiquities Book 18, Chapter 3, Paragraph 3---Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Prophecies of the OT Fulfilled in Jesus Christ:

There have been described in the Old Testament 300 prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah and 500 of the second coming, all of then made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus and fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

George Heron, a French mathematician, calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros. Compare it to this; your odds on winning the state lottery are 14 followed by 6 zeros.

Another mathematician, Dr. Peter S. Ruckman, claims the odds of being fulfilled only 60 of them by the only person who claimed to be the Son of God, and who died on a "tree" on Calvary, and who rose the 3rd day are astronomical!... not just one in one trillion, but one out of ten to the 895th power. That is a one over a one followed by 895 zeros.

And still more, because every page of the Old Testament talks and prophecies and characterizes the coming of the Messiah, the Christ in Greek... so, there are actually thousands of prophecies on the coming of the Messiah, all of them fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ and His Church as they are shown in this site.

Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. (Jn.1:45)

If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me (Jn.5:46).

And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. (Lk.24:27)

He said to them, This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. (Lk.24:44).

He told them, This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, (Lk.24:46).

Prophecies and types of each book of the Bible fulfilled in Jesus Christ and His Church, a total of 1,093

92 Prophecies of the Psalms fulfilled in Jesus Christ

121 Prophecies of Isaiah fulfilled in Jesus Christ

Here are just 50 of those thousand Prophecies:

Ancestors:

1- The "seed of a woman": Genesis 3:15.... Galatians 4:4.

Jesus was born of Virgin Mary without any man involved in His conception (Is.7:14, Mat.1:23, Lk.1:27).

- Gen.3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

- Gal.4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law. (Luk.2:7; Rev.12:5)

2- Descendent of Abraham: Genesis 12:3, 18:18.... Acts 3:25, Matthew 1:1.

- Gen. 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. (Gen. 12:3)

- Act. 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, "Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed." (Mt.1:1; Lk.3:34)

3- Descendent of Isaac: Gen.17:19, Luc.3:34.

- Gen.17:19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."

-Mt.1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. (Lk.3:34)

4- Descendent of Jacob: Numbers 24:17...... Luke 3:34, Matt.1:2.

- Num.24:17 I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth.

- Lk.3:34 The son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor. (Mt.1:2)

5-- From the Tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33.

- Gen.49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.

- Lk.3:33 The son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah. (Mt.1:2-3)

6- Hair of the Throne of David: Isaiah 9:7.... Luke 1:32-33.

- Isa.9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. (Isa.11:1-5; 2Sam.7:13)

- Luk.1:32-33: He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Mt.1:1, 1:6)

Birth and Childhood:

7- Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2.... Matthew 2:1.... Luke 2:4-7.

- Mic.5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.

- Mt.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. (Lk.2:4-7)

8- To be born of a Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18.... Luke 1:26-35.

- Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

- Mt.1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (Lk.1:26-35)

9- Time of his birth: Daniel 9:25.... Luke 2:1:

- Dan.9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens" and sixty two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

- Lk 2:1-2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was the governor of Syria.) (Lk 2:3-7)

- Mat.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

10- Slaughter of the Innocent children: Jeremiah 31:15.... Matthew 2:16-18.

- Jer.31:15 This is what the Lord says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."

- Mt.2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. (Mt 2:16-18)

11- Flight to Egypt: Hosea 11:1.... Matthew 2:14-15.

- Hos.11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son

- Mt.2:14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt. (Mt 2:15)

12- He shall be called a Nazarene: Judges 13:5.... Matthew 2:23.

- Jud.13:5 for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God

- Mt.2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene

Passion:

13- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9.... John 12:13-14.

- Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)

- Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)

14- Entry through the "Golden Gate", that shall be shut for ever after his entrance: Ezekiel 44:1-2.... Mark 11:7-8.

On Palm Sunday Jesus entered Jerusalem through the Golden Gate. When you go to Jerusalem look at the Golden Gate, it is shut with stone and cement, and with a Muslim cemetery in its front, through which a Jewish Messiah will never pass.

- Ez.44:1-2 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD , the God of Israel, has entered through it.

- Mk.11:7-8 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields.

15- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9... Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.

- Ps.41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.

- Mk.14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. (Mt.26:14-16; Mk.14:43-45)

- Zec.11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. (Zec.11:13)

- Mt.26:15 And asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. (Mt 27:3-10)

16- Money to be returned for a potter's field: Zechariah 11:13.... Matthew 27:6-7.

- Zec.11:13 And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"- the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.

- Mt.27:6-7 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. (Mt.27:3-5,8-10)

17- Judas's position to be taken by another: Psalm 109:7-8.... Acts 1:18-20.

- Ps.109:7-8 When he is tried, let him be found guilty, and may his prayers condemn him. May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership

- Act.1:18-20 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) "For, " said Peter, "It is written in the book of Psalms, "'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "'May another take his place of leadership.'" (Ac 1:16-17)

18- Accused by false witnesses: Psalms .27:12, 35:11.... Mt 26:60-61, Mk.14:57.

- Ps.27:12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, breathing out violence. (Ps.35:11)

- Mt.26:60-61 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two men came forward and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.'"

19- Silent to accusations: Isaiah 53:7.... Matthew 26:62-63, Mark.15:4-5.

- Isa.53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. (Ps.38:13-14)

- Mt 26:62-63 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!" (Mt 27:12-14, Mk.15:4-5)

20 - Spat and struck: Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.

- Isa.50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

- Mk.14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him. (Mt.26:27, Mk.15:17; Jn 19:1-3; 18:22)

21- Hated without reason: Psalms 69:4, 35:19, 109:3-5.... John.15:24-25.

- Ps 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. (Ps.35:19, 109:3-5)

- Jn.15:23-25 He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: "They hated me without reason."

22- Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing: Psalm 22:18... Matt.27:35 (2 Prophecies)

- Ps 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots (Mk.15:24).

23- Crucified, "pierced through hands and feet": Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16.... Matthew 27:35, John 20:27.

- Ps.22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (Zec.12:10)

- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him.

- Jn. 20:25-26 Now Thomas (called Didymus)... he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." (Jn.19:37, 20:27)

24- Crucified with malefactors: Isaiah 53:12.... Mark 15:27-28.

- Isa.53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

- Mt 27:38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. (Mk 15:27-28; Lk 23:33)

25- Agonized in Thirst: Psalm 22:15.... John 19:28.

- Ps.22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

- Jn.19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

26- Given gall and vinegar: Psalm 69:21.... Matthew 27:34, 48, John 19:19.

- Ps.69:21 They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.

- Mat.27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink (Jn.19:29, Mat.27:48).

27- No bones broken: Psalm 34:20.... John 19:32-36.

- Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)

- Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

28- His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10.... John 19:34.

- Zec.12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

- Jn 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1.... Matthew 27:46.

- Ps.22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

- Mat.27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

30- Vicarious Sacrifice: Isaiah 53:4-5, 6, 12.... Matthew 8:16-17, Romans 4:25, 5:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:3.

- Isa.53:4-5 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. (Is. 53:6, 12)

- Mt.8:16-17 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases." (Ro 4:25, 5:6-8, 1Cor 15:3)

31- Buried with the rich: Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60.

- Isa.53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

- Mt.27:57-60 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away

32- Deserted by his followers: Zechariah 13:7.... Mark 14:27.

- Zec.13:7 smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

- Mk.14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

33- Time of his death: Daniel 9:25.... Luke 2:1, Matthew 2:1:

- Doing the proper computations, the Messiah was supposed to die on April 3, of the year 33 AC (Open Bible pag.833)

34- Resurrection of Jesus: Hosea 6:2, Psalms 16:10, 49:15..... Luke 24:6-7, Mark.16:6-7.

- Hos.6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

- Lk.24:6-7 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

35- Other dead raised with Him: Isaiah 26:19, Ezekiel 37:7-10..... Matthew 27:52-53.

- Isa.26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

- Ez.37:7-10 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

- Mat.27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

36- Ascension to Heaven: Psalms 68:18, 24:3.....Lk 24:50-51, Acts 1:11, Mk.16:19.

- Ps.68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

- Ps.24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?

- Lk 24:50-51 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven

- Act.1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

37- Christ at the Right hand of the Father: Psalm 110:1..... Hebrews 1:2,3.

- Ps.110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

- Heb.1:2,3 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Ministry:

38- The way prepared by John the Baptist: Isaiah 40:3,5.... John 1:23, Luke 3:3-6.

- Isa.40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

- Jn.1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah

39- Preceded by a forerunner: Mal.3:1, Luk.7:24-27.

40- Preceded by Elijah: Mal.4:5-6, Matt.11:13-14.

41- Declared the Son of God: Ps.2:7, Matt.3:17.

42- Galilean Ministry: Is.9:1-2, Matt.4:13-16.

43- Speaks in Parables: Ps.78:2-4, Matt.13:34-35.

44- A Prophet: Deut.18:15, Jn.6:14, Acts 3:20-22.

45- Priest after the Order of Melchizedek: Ps.110:4, Heb.5:5-6.

46- To bind up the brokenhearted: Is.61:1-2, Luk.4:18-19.

47- Rejected by his own people, the Jews: Is.53:3, John 1:11.

48- Not believed: Is.53:1, John 12:37.

49- Adored by infants: Ps.8:2, Matt.21:15--16.

50- Anointed and eternal: Ps.45:6-7, Heb.1:8-12.

The Bible is 100% accurate and literal. These are just a few of the prophecies that were predicted hundreds even thousands of years before they came to pass. No other book can claim this, not even science. The Bible can indeed be trusted.

[Guest]

Thank you Forrest!

With all the symbolic stuff, you sort of sounded like Mr. Moon's crowd.

Now I understand your Biblical roots a little better.

No small feat on your part!

I'll step away from this thread for awhile so you'll have one less voice distracting you from thoughtful discussions.

I did enjoy your family website.

And, I love your new neighborhood!

16 years ago we passed through KC on our way to a Connecticut visit with my honey's family.

God Bless!

Call when the Turkey's done.

[forrestkc]

Poor proto-Adam. Poor fella almost got to go to heaven, but since he didn't have a spirit, poor fella just died and went to dust eh? All those "almost humans" just perished. Then our ancestors finally evolved high enough that they had a spirit,and one of them must have sinned, only what did he do? If there was no literal tree of knowledge of good and evil, what did he do?

What is the mental capacity necessary for a soul? For example, does a baby born with only a brain stem have a soul? Essentially, in that case it would be an individual born without a brain, so would they have a soul?

There are mysteries in life and mysteries in faith. I don't know at what point in the development of man that we attained a soul. I don

[JIME]

Poor proto-Adam. Poor fella almost got to go to heaven, but since he didn't have a spirit, poor fella just died and went to dust eh? All those "almost humans" just perished. Then our ancestors finally evolved high enough that they had a spirit,and one of them must have sinned, only what did he do? If there was no literal tree of knowledge of good and evil, what did he do?

What is the mental capacity necessary for a soul? For example, does a baby born with only a brain stem have a soul? Essentially, in that case it would be an individual born without a brain, so would they have a soul?

There are mysteries in life and mysteries in faith. I don't know at what point in the development of man that we attained a soul. I don

[forrestkc]

Specific geographical location given for the garden of Eden is given. Specific conditions of creation are given.

Amazingly, from the alegorical perspective, much the same area as the rise of man and the rise of civilization.

. So if it was a water event you would expect a great deal of sorting, if it was a glacial event, you would expect random material of all sizes deposited with little or no sorting.

Actually, the Loess Hills were formed from wind blown silt:

Although early geologists assumed loess was either fluvial (deposited by a river) or lacustrine (formed in a lake), today we know that loess was eolian (deposited by the wind). During the Ice Age, glaciers advanced down into the mid-continent of North America, grinding underlying rock into a fine powderlike sediment called "glacial flour." As temperatures warmed, the glaciers melted and enormous amounts of water and sediment rushed down the Missouri River valley. The sediment was eventually deposited on flood plains downstream, creating huge mud flats.

During the winters the meltwaters would recede, leaving the mud flats exposed. As they dried, fine-grained mud material called silt was picked up and carried by strong winds. These large dust clouds were moved eastward by prevailing westerly winds and were redeposited over broad areas. Heavier, coarser silt, deposited closest to its Missouri River flood plain source, formed sharp, high bluffs on the western margin of the Loess Hills. Finer, lighter silt, deposited farther east, created gently sloping hills on the eastern margin. This process repeated for thousands of years, building layer upon layer until the loess reached thicknesses of 60 feet or more and became the dominant feature of the terrain.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/info/loess/

So here you have just one example of thousands of geological problems for literalists. In the case of this one, the Loess Hills formed prior to the time the Great Flood was supposed to occur. Yet, a worldwide flood, had it occured, would have undoubtably destroyed them.

And that is the problem. It is not some great scientific conspiracy against literal creationists, it is simply that the observable evidence soundly contradicts the the claims of literalists. Moreover, literal creationist offer not one piece of possitive empiracle evidence in support of their claims.