Is it possible for ANY of Jesus' sheep to go to hell?

[Ovedya]

You have given quite a bit to respond to, but I shall try to cover as much as I can. In the first place, I do believe the story of the prodigal son does represent a child of God who is saved, then lost, then saved again. I know there are some who take a differen't view of the story, but that is how I interpret it. As such, when I repond to what you said, I am doing so based on my interpretation of the meaning.

So therefore, am I to assume that because you interpret the verses a certain way, then that's the message that those verses are delivering? Frankly, it really doesn't matter how you interpret the verses, or how you choose to use them. The Lord's message had a specific point and a specific purpose with respect to the Gospel. I would think that that is far and above what you or I think or extrapolate from this passage.

It seems to me that, rather than take the message itself at face-value, you give higher value to your own interpretation of it.

Now, let's return to the verses in question from John 10:27-29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

There are 3 things Jesus says about his sheep. 1. They hear his voice. 2. Jesus knows them 3. They follow Christ

If the sheep are not hearing Jesus voice and not following him, then they are not his sheep.

Well I would think that that point's pretty clear. But be careful that you don't extrapolate something from these verses that is not really there. Don't place conditions where none exist.

28 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Those who meet the qualification of sheep have eternal life, will never perish, and no man can pluck them out of Jesus' hand. These are the sheep still in the fold.

No! That's not what it says. Where are the conditions or "qualifications" of the sheep? All those who have believed into the Lord Jesus, and have received eternal life are His sheep!

29 My father which gave them me, is greater then all: and no man is able to pluck them out of my fathers hand.

Again, as long as they remain in the fold, they are protected. No wolf can get to the sheep. They can't be plucked out of the father's hand. Remember again that those who don't meet the qualifications of sheep in verse 27 of hearing his voice and following him don't have these promises pertaining to them. Your Greek word argument doesn't hold water because it only applies to sheep in the fold. If they are in the fold, they do have eternal life, and indeed it does mean eternal. If they are in the Father's hand and don't walk out on their own, nobody has the ability to remove them by force.

You seem to be implying, "As long as they are in the fold they have eternal life." But eternal life has no such condition. It is not limited in any respect. As if man's free will has any greater power than that of God's very life! not so. No power in the universe is greater than the eternal life of God!

[Ovedya]

In terms of the idea that man can turn away from God and reject his own salvation, first of all, it's purely a Catholic teaching. That is not an attempt to demonize anyone, but be aware that this specific false teaching has been used by the Roman church for centuries to imply (if not, outright state) that whoever leaves the fellowship of the Roman Church, or does not participate in its sacraments, is doomed to hell. Nothing is more repugnant to me.

Secondly, it requires an interjection of human opinion into the Scriptures in stating "man can walk away." The verses we've been discussing say nothing of "walking away." They say nothing of doing something opposite what the verses actually say. The verses say one thing: They shall by no means perish. If walking away is a means of perishing, then the Lord was wrong!

[forrestkc]

In terms of the idea that man can turn away from God and reject his own salvation, first of all, it's purely a Catholic teaching. That is not an attempt to demonize anyone, but be aware that this specific false teaching has been used by the Roman church for centuries to imply (if not, outright state) that whoever leaves the fellowship of the Roman Church, or does not participate in its sacraments, is doomed to hell. Nothing is more repugnant to me.

Secondly, it requires an interjection of human opinion into the Scriptures in stating "man can walk away." The verses we've been discussing say nothing of "walking away." They say nothing of doing something opposite what the verses actually say. The verses say one thing: They shall by no means perish. If walking away is a means of perishing, then the Lord was wrong!

It is not just Catholic teaching. It would be Lutheran Teaching as well. In fact, the only once saved always saved group that I know of are the Baptists. It my understanding that virtually every denomination excluding the Baptists teaches that one must be continually repentant after accepting Christ.

Morever, even the Catholic Church does not teach that one must be a Catholic inorder to be saved.

[Floatingaxe]

Matthew 7:21-23...

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"

You'd better make sure that He really is your Lord!

[Ovedya]

In terms of the idea that man can turn away from God and reject his own salvation, first of all, it's purely a Catholic teaching. That is not an attempt to demonize anyone, but be aware that this specific false teaching has been used by the Roman church for centuries to imply (if not, outright state) that whoever leaves the fellowship of the Roman Church, or does not participate in its sacraments, is doomed to hell. Nothing is more repugnant to me.

Secondly, it requires an interjection of human opinion into the Scriptures in stating "man can walk away." The verses we've been discussing say nothing of "walking away." They say nothing of doing something opposite what the verses actually say. The verses say one thing: They shall by no means perish. If walking away is a means of perishing, then the Lord was wrong!

It is not just Catholic teaching. It would be Lutheran Teaching as well. In fact, the only once saved always saved group that I know of are the Baptists. It my understanding that virtually every denomination excluding the Baptists teaches that one must be continually repentant after accepting Christ.

In fact, many (if not most) Evangelical groups hold to some form of OSAS.

With regards to repentance, I don't hold that any Christian is exempt from the need to confess his sins before the Lord. In fact, I don't know of any orthodox groups that do either.

Morever, even the Catholic Church does not teach that one must be a Catholic inorder to be saved.

No. Apparently, one can also be a Muslim as well.

[Ovedya]

I believe that my interpretation is the correct one, or I wouldn't give it.

Yet the Lord never made a single one of the points that you did. So how is it possible that yours is the correct interpretation?

OVEDYA SAID:

Well I would think that that point's pretty clear. But be careful that you don't extrapolate something from these verses that is not really there. Don;t place conditions where none exist.

BUTERO's RESPONSE: I am not. They clearly are there. Jesus clearly says that his sheep hear his voice and follow him. If they don't do those things, they are not his sheep. That is pretty plain.

But you are twisting the verse. You are placing hearing and doing in conditional categories, when they clearly are not conditions. They are not qualifications for being sheep.

OVEDYA SAID:

You seem to be implying, "As long as they are in the fold they have eternal life." But eternal life has no such condition. It is not limited in any respect. As if man's free will has any greater power than that of God's very life! not so. No power in the universe is greater than the eternal life of God!

BUTERO's RESPONSE: Again, those who are Jesus' sheep hear his voice and follow him. Those that do those things have eternal life. Those that never have, or cease to do those things do not, as they are not his sheep. No, man does not have greater power than God, but God himself allows man to have a free will to choose to go astray if they wish, just as the prodigal son's father did. He didn't have to allow him to leave with his inheritance, but he did anyway. God could have created men as robots had he wanted to, but chose not to. He also didn't take away our free will, where we couldn't turn away from him after being saved initially.

Then you are implying that man's free will is greater than God's power to save completely. you are implying that eternal life is conditioned upon man's free will. Nothing in the Scriptures states this at all.

[Ovedya]

I know that those who trace their roots back to Wesley don't believe in the OSAS doctrine. That would include the Methodists, Weslyans and Pentecostals. I was a member of a Methodist Church growing up, and have since been part of the Pentecostal Holiness, Church of God and Assemblies of God, as well as some independent protestant churches, and none believe the OSAS doctrine.

Too bad for them, then.

What's this have to do with anything?

[forrestkc]

It is not purely a Catholic doctrine. A good number of protestant denominations reject the doctrine of unconditional eternal security. As a matter of fact, the idea one cannot lose their salvation under any circumstance is primarily a Baptist doctrine. It is a watered down form of Calvanism. Those who hold to this doctrine reject Calvin's absolute ascertion that man has no say in who is saved and who is lost, but hold to the idea that we have the power to accept or reject Christ initially, a work. They then claim that once we make that choice, we cannot turn away from the Lord even if we desire to. At least true followers of Calvin make some sense in that they would say that if we don't live right, it means we were never saved. They are consistent in the fact that no work done by us had any part in our salvation. Those who hold to your way of thinking are accepting man's ability to choose to be saved, but then say the Lord will make us remain a Christian against our will. We could potentially go out and commit adultery, murder, become a drunkard, anything, and remain saved, even though Paul says those that do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of heaven. This makes no sense. I believe man has a free will to choose to accept or reject Christ as long as he lives. God knowing all things knows who will be saved and who will be lost, but the choice to accept or reject him is ours.

Butero, I can't believe it. The devil has probably just passed out some ice water because I completely agree with what you just wrote.

[Ovedya]

In terms of the idea that man can turn away from God and reject his own salvation, first of all, it's purely a Catholic teaching. That is not an attempt to demonize anyone, but be aware that this specific false teaching has been used by the Roman church for centuries to imply (if not, outright state) that whoever leaves the fellowship of the Roman Church, or does not participate in its sacraments, is doomed to hell. Nothing is more repugnant to me.

Secondly, it requires an interjection of human opinion into the Scriptures in stating "man can walk away." The verses we've been discussing say nothing of "walking away." They say nothing of doing something opposite what the verses actually say. The verses say one thing: They shall by no means perish. If walking away is a means of perishing, then the Lord was wrong!

It is not purely a Catholic doctrine. A good number of protestant denominations reject the doctrine of unconditional eternal security. As a matter of fact, the idea one cannot lose their salvation under any circumstance is primarily a Baptist doctrine. It is a watered down form of Calvanism. Those who hold to this doctrine reject Calvin's absolute ascertion that man has no say in who is saved and who is lost, but hold to the idea that we have the power to accept or reject Christ initially, a work. They then claim that once we make that choice, we cannot turn away from the Lord even if we desire to. At least true followers of Calvin make some sense in that they would say that if we don't live right, it means we were never saved. They are consistent in the fact that no work done by us had any part in our salvation. Those who hold to your way of thinking are accepting man's ability to choose to be saved, but then say the Lord will make us remain a Christian against our will. We could potentially go out and commit adultery, murder, become a drunkard, anything, and remain saved, even though Paul says those that do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of heaven. This makes no sense. I believe man has a free will to choose to accept or reject Christ as long as he lives. God knowing all things knows who will be saved and who will be lost, but the choice to accept or reject him is ours.

The problem is that, in order to reject unconditional election and perseverance, one must necessarilly extrapolate things from the Scriptures which are not really there. One must read something from the Scriptures and take as doctrine the opposite of what is clearly says. This is nothing short of adding to the Scriptures.

No only so, but the process of taking something as clear and concise as "they shall by no means perish" and adding a condition to it, and then stating that, "this is what this verse really means" is exalting the interpretation over those clear words from Scripture. It's arguing from a vaccum: Placing something that is not there in the first place and using it as a jumping off point to prove an ill-conceived doctrine of men.

Addressing the issue of whether a saved person can commit a host of sins with the belief that he will be saved anyway - without some form of dispensational punishment - is simply a waste of time and effort. This issue is continually raised as an attempt to exalt faulty human logic over the clear words of Scripture. I am supposed to think to myself, "Hmm, since you put it that way, I suppose that the Bible is right. I can't logically do those things and still expect to go to heaven, so therefore I must be able to lose my salvation after all. In actuality I am not trusting the words of the Bible, but the argument that is being put forth.

[nanasimmons]

I would like to address the original question here, "Is it possible for any of Jesus' sheep to go to hell?" Absolutely not, because they are safe within his fold and protected. The bigger question is, what happens to one of Jesus' sheep that strays from the fold? Is it possible that they could wind up in hell? The answer is absolutely. Let's take a look at what Jesus says in Luke 15:4. "What man of you having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth he not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? Since the primary question here is that of the shepherd seeking the sheep that wandered off, we can overlook the fact that this sheep is LOST. When a sheep is in the fold, it is protected from harm by the shepherd, just like when a Christian is in Jesus' hand he is also protected. In the fold, no wolf will be allowed to harm the sheep, and in Jesus' hand, no man can pluck one of his children out. At the same time, there is nothing preventing a sheep from wandering off of his own accord, or a man from walking away from Jesus' hand on his own, like the prodigal son.

Let's focus on the word lost for a moment. It comes from the Greek word apollumi, and means to destroy fully, die, lose, mar, perish. This is the same Greek word that describes the condition of the prodigal while he was away from the Father in sin. While a person is living for Christ, and safe in the fold, there is no fear of hell. If he wanders away, he is just as a sheep alone in the wilderness, completely vulnerable. A sheep without a shepherd doesn't stand a chance, and will eventually be killed. A Christian who has wandered away from the good shepherd is in the same place, heading for destruction, which means eternity in hell if they don't repent and return to the Lord. If the good shepherd finds a lost sheep, and that lost sheep won't return to the fold, he no longer belongs to the shepherd, and therefore will go to hell.

Conclusion of the matter. It is not possible for any of Jesus' sheep to go to hell, but it is possible for someone who was once one of his sheep to wander away and go to hell.

In the parable of the lost sheep, I see the only saved one is the one that was LOST...by what is said in verse 7.

Do you know ANY ONE who does not need repentance?? Not me...The 99 are selfrighteous people who don't recognize their that they are lost...

He came to seek and save that which was lost....