Snowdoove Posted December 19, 2003 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 303 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 698 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/15/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/05/1946 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Blessings & Greetings~ RE: Grafted in with the Jewish Do you believe that you are grafted into Israel? Snowdoove :t: :t: :t: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 all who have accepted Christ as their personal savior have become a part of God's family, and have been grafted in with the Jewish. i have accepted Christ as my personal savior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted December 19, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Greetings Snowdove, You are referring to the Olive Tree in Romans 11. Contrary to what some believe, it represents the "Kingdom of God". In Eph 1-3 we see that Christ is building a "habitation" wherein God shall dwell through His Holy Spirit. It is composed of both Jew and Gentile. Our God is NOT the God of the Jews only, but ALSO of the Gentiles. Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God. He did not come preaching "spiritual" Israel. We are drawn nigh to our Jewish believer brethren in the Kingdom of God - NOT in the Spiritual Kingdom of Israel. The Kingdom of God DOES NOT equate to Israel in any way shape or form. Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idolsmasher Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Grafted into Israel, no! I believe that all believers are grafted into God. Jews need grafting in as much as anyone and will only be grafted into God's kingdom if they accept Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginakay Posted December 20, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 280 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/08/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 20, 2003 I think it depends on how you look at it. I am Abraham's descendant by faith and grafted in to the spiritual Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted December 20, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I think it depends on how you look at it. I am Abraham's descendant by faith and grafted in to the spiritual Israel. Greetings Ginakay, Spiritual Israel consisted of Paul and the Apostles and those other JEWISH believers who at the time of the writing of Romans 11 were only a REMNANT of Israel. The Olive Tree in Romans 11 represents the "Kingdom of God", and according to Eph. we are "drawn nigh" to them through the shed blood of Jesus Christ and are being created together for a "habitation wherein God shall dwell through His Holy Spirit". Jesus never came preaching "spiritual Israel", but preached the "Kingdom of God" among you or in you. You do a disservice to the Jews by claiming you, a gentile, are now a "spiritual Jew". Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowdoove Posted December 20, 2003 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 303 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 698 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/15/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/05/1946 Author Share Posted December 20, 2003 Blessings Dad Ernie~ Romans 11 verses 11 thru 26. KJV You may want to re-read. The House of Jacob The Bible plainly says that the descendants of Abraham, the house of Jacob, are G-D's CHOSEN PEOPLE. You will hear a lot of people saying the Jewish people are G-D's CHOSEN PEOPLE and they were, but when they rejected Jesus as the Messiah, they were cut off from being a part of the olive tree along with anyone else that doesn't accept the Lord Jesus as their Lord and Master. In Romans 11:17 it doesn't say that the Messianic Jews would be grafted in amoung the Gentiles. It says the Gentiles that serve the Lord are grafted in amoung the children of Israel and with them become partakers of the richness of the Olive tree. In regards to your wording -"You do a disservice to the Jews by claiming, a gentile are now a spiritual Jew"., Should read, in my opinion, You do a disservice to the Jews by claiming, a Gentile is now a Spiritual Messianic Jew. The Olive tree represents the Kingdom of Heaven. I believe in the Trinity, yet I know who came first.! By the way Dad Ernie, who came first, G-D or Lord Jesus? Pray for the Peace of Israel! Snowdoove :t: :t: :il: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted December 20, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Greetings Snowdoove, Romans 11 verses 11 thru 26. KJVÂ You may want to re-read. Please tell me what I am supposed to be understanding. I do not make arbitrary assumptions regarding the scriptures. You might be surprised yourself the in-depth study I've taken of Romans 11 et al. The House of Jacob The Bible plainly says that the descendants of Abraham, the house of Jacob, are G-D's CHOSEN PEOPLE. You will hear a lot of people saying the Jewish people are G-D's CHOSEN PEOPLE and they were, but when they rejected Jesus as the Messiah, they were cut off from being a part of the olive tree along with anyone else that doesn't accept the Lord Jesus as their Lord and Master. I'm not sure I am understanding you on this, but you are saying Jesus, Paul and all the Apostles are CUT OFF from the Olive Tree. Is that what you are saying In Romans 11:17 it doesn't say that the Messianic Jews would be grafted in amoung the Gentiles. It says the Gentiles that serve the Lord are grafted in amoung the children of Israel and with them become partakers of the richness of the Olive tree. Jesus never took the "spiritual kingdom of Israel" from Israel. He prophesied that the Kingdom of God would be taken from Israel. The believing Jews were the first to enter in, followed soon thereafter by believing Gentiles. Only a relatively small group - a remnant - of whom Paul called his brothers according to the flesh - remained that believed in the Lordship of Jesus Christ. In regards to your wording -"You do a disservice to the Jews by claiming, a gentile are now a spiritual Jew"., Should read, in my opinion, You do a disservice to the Jews by claiming, a Gentile is now a Spiritual Messianic Jew. First, you misquote me, here is what I said: You do a disservice to the Jews by claiming you, a gentile, are now a "spiritual Jew". Regardless of what you may THINK, if you know Christ, then you have entered into the "Kingdom of God", and NOT Spiritual Israel. The Olive tree represents the Kingdom of Heaven. If you have done a proper study, you will see that the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Christ are often used interchangeably, although I will normally use "Kingdom of Heaven" to represent that Kingdom which is now in heaven and shall one day be brought down to earth. The other two Kingdoms are synonymous with "the Kingdom of God is in you (or among you). We know that the Kingdom of God was taken from Israel and given to the gentiles, in essence they were lopped off. They had no more free access to the Kingdom of God as they did when the "Kingdom" was under their perview. Do you not see the similarity in ideas? I believe in the Trinity, yet I know who came first.! I'm not sure what you are getting at. But in the "first" age, it was the gentiles who came first. Before Jacob, ALL were gentiles. By the way Dad Ernie, who came first, G-D or Lord Jesus? They are co-existent. They are one. Christ existed before the foundations of the earth. What's your point? Pray for the Peace of Israel! With this, I will finally agree. Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Romans 11 is about how "some of the branches" (jews) were broken off so we (gentiles) could be grafted into the rich roots of the tree. This is their tree or they wouldn't be called "natural branches" The jews were entrusted with the covenants, the promises, and the oracles of God. This is Judaism in it's purest original form. The same faith which was passed down from Abraham to Isaac & Jacob to Joseph to Moses & Aaron to David to Hezekiah to Isaiah and the prophets....from God. So we are grafted into the rich root...but is that the same as being grafted into Israel? I guess that depends on your definition of Israel. This is a metaphor in Romans 11 which makes a literal analogy a bit tricky if you are applying it to modern Israel. Do I feel a kinship to the people of modern Israel? Yes, because of the prophetic realization that they are....but I am not grafted into the physical nation of Israel. Someday we will be citizens of the commonwealth of Israel in the millennial reign of Yeshua but is that "grafting"? Spiritual Israel is also a tricky definition....unless you mean it this way; Galatians 6 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. This passage might be speaking only of jewish believers as the Israel of God but I think that Paul is using a broader metaphor in this particular place only. It can't be proven either way....but that's my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted December 21, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted December 21, 2003 Greetings Yod, my Brother in the Faith, Perhaps you have already read my post in the other thread. I hope so. Galatians 6 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. This passage might be speaking only of jewish believers as the Israel of God but I think that Paul is using a broader metaphor in this particular place only. It can't be proven either way....but that's my opinion. Does not the "context" afford us an insight into the truth? Why the use of the "conjunction" (and). There is ONLY ONE "Israel of God" and it does not include gentiles. But I am glad to see that you are not dogmatic about this issue. May I ask why you think that Paul uses a "broader metaphor in this particular place ONLY"? All of the Epistles make a clear distinction between Jew and Gentile. You yourself recognize the difference. So why the alternative meaning suggested here? To fit ones paradigm? I really hope not, for only the "spiritual" can interpret the "spiritual", that is, the Word itself interprets the Word. Blessings My Brother, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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