Scarletprayers Posted March 19, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 135 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,537 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 157 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/29/1956 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I prayed to the Holy Spirit before posting. I even prayed for guidance whether or not to reply. There are several intrinsic errors in your hypothetical situation. 1. Despite the fact that neither missionary had any Biblical training, they still had different life experiences to draw upon. 2. Unless they were totally surrendered to Jesus, and leading sinless lives, they will hear the Holy Spirit thru their fallen human "ears". 3. and the biggest error.............if they were truly submitted to Christ and able to discern the Spirits voice, they wouldn't be flying solo. They would be fully engaged in, and obedient to, a Church. God bless, Fiosh WHOA!!!! 1. Are you saying the Holy Spirit does not conform us to One Accord in Christ despite our "life experiences"? 2. The Holy Spirit is only given to those "totally surrendered" but...who leads a totally "sinless lives"? Are you now perfected and without any sin anywhere in your life?? 3. The Scriptures DO NOT place "obedience" to the "church" but to Jesus Alone and Only Him. We are to give benevolence and heed to those Jesus has placed in Authority over us verifying their teachings by the Word of God and "testing the spirits" by that same Word....but, if this latter days has proven anything, few there are that are taking that lead in Christ Jesus. A Spirit filled and Spirit led leader would point to Jesus Only for our Authority for he is nothing of himself and has nothing in him Worthy to teach save the Lord Jesus and His Word. The "Church" was never meant to be in Authority and that is the root of what we see in apostacy today. It (The Church and her leaders) have taken Authority that does not belong to them but to Jesus Christ. Phil and RC, please before you get out of the book of Acts there are division, this HOLY SPIRIT only is what causes division. Nobody even the Apostles were so pure they didn't have discord between them. I posted my response to Phil and his scenario but, I am not sure what you are driving out here?? Phil's scenario says two missionary both with the Word of God and Holy Spirit. And I will say this time and again; no one is really guided by the Holy Ghost except they have been Baptised in the Holy Ghost. And that does not come except a soul is sold out and in submission to Jesus Christ recognizing Him Alone as God Manifested, God Sacrificed and, God Risen Up from Death conquering Death and The Grave taking our punishment (His Just Punishment for sin) upon Himself for us who Believe. I agree there were minor issues but, that being human nature, The Holy Ghost still "ironed" those out and the Church never missed a beat in His Authority and Leadership (Jesus). Now, do I believe The Holy Spirit of God alone can lead one into one accord with Jesus and be sufficient? You bet I do! And therein lies the mystery that so many are blinded to even within the Church of Jesus Christ. I'm not driving out anything. I am stating plain as the nose on our face, that "all sin and fall short of the glory of God!" and that is from scripture tried and true, so even under the very best circumstances the Holy Spirit is still filtered through a fallen, falliable, lost humanity. Would the two men from Phil's scenario probably come close to teaching the same thing, yes, they probably would be very close, but exactly alike, no. I don't think Saul saying as vehemently as he did that he told Peter to his face he was wrong, or the arguement between him and Barnabas about John Mark was minor. The Bereans "were of more noble character than the Thessolonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." They didn't check in with the Holy Spirit only, they also examined scripture, as we are also told to do as well as pray for guidance. And I know who Jesus is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil.2:12 Posted March 19, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 161 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/06/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/13/1934 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 (edited) Phil and RC, please before you get out of the book of Acts there are division, this HOLY SPIRIT only is what causes division. Nobody even the Apostles were so pure they didn't have discord between them. And this is my point exactly Silentprayer, there is division within the body of Christ, which would not have happened if the church leaders had allowed the Holy Spirit to guide them. This has been the problem since the Apostles died out. These men were sold out to Jesus and as such were quite spiritually mature to the point that they could easily hear the voice of God and followed the leading of the Holy Spirit just as God intended. However, spiritual maturity began to wane more and more after the first century so that, during the dark ages (500 A.D. to 1000 A.D.) the church leaders were as carnal as they could be. This allows the devil to plant many a false doctrine into church doctrine and clothe the planting with such deception that these false doctrines are readily accepted. Spiritual maturity began slowly to grow in the 1100's and actually caused the Reformation of the church with the likes of Martin Luthor, a Roman Catholic priest who just wanted to clean up the Catholic Church (especially the granting of indulgences) and never had it in mind to start a new denomination. Sure, there were disputes and disagreements in the Book of Acts. For example God showed Peter that He wanted both Jew and Gentile to receive His Good News. As a result Peter shared the Gospel with Cornelius, a Gentile, and continued on converting many Gentiles to Jesus. In order to do this, Peter had to live like a Gentile, a distinct no-no to a practicing Jew. Apparently Paul was there with Peter in the spread of the Gospel of Jesus to the Gentiles for when James, with a contingent from Jerusalem (think Denominational Headquarters) came down to see what Peter was doing, Peter immediately began to associate only with Jews. As a result, Paul confronted Peter over his hypcritical stance and took him to task over it. James and the contigent from Jerusalem agreed with Paul in his denouncing Peter, not for the Gospel he preached, but for his hypocritical conduct when the troupe from Jerusalem arrived. The hypocritical situation Peter found himself in was not sanctioned by the Holy Spirit as He used both James and Paul to point out to Peter just what kind of behavior he was engaging in. Peter straightened out his view of the Gentiles and became the Apostle to the Jews while Paul became the Apostle to the Gentiles. This whole scene, by the way, took place in Antioch. The point is that even though the apostles made blunders and sometimes they were whopper blunders, they still taught what the Holy Spirit showed them. There was never any disagreement in the theology of Peter, Paul, James, etc. On theological issues, they were in agreement even though in other areas of their lives they were at odds with one another. The whole issue revolves around the spiritual maturity of the leaders of the church. If they are spiritually mature, the Holy Spirit can tell Paul, Peter, James, Phillip, and others the same identical information so that there is no disagreement between them on theological issues. The more spiritually immature leaders there are in a denomination and/or church, the more false doctrine Satan can introduce because the leaders are not spiritually mature enough to recognize the deception as a deception and thereby embrace the false doctrine inserted by the devil as the very Truth of God. It all comes down to spiritual maturity (or lack thereof) because only the spiritually mature can hear the Holy Spirit clearly. The spiritual maturity taught in the Word of God is not taught in our churches or denominations which is why there is so much confusion with the various positions on theology within the Christian community. We need to go back to the Scriptures and teach spiritual maturity as it is outlined in the Word of God. Only then will the body of Christ begin to once again mature to the point that they really can hear the Holy Spirit once more. Edited March 19, 2007 by Phil.2:12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firehill Posted March 19, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2007 Maybe we could start a thread on precisely 'What has the Holy Spirit taught you?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarletprayers Posted March 19, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 135 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,537 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 157 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/29/1956 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Maybe we could start a thread on precisely 'What has the Holy Spirit taught you?' Wow, now that would be a mighty long thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gathernscatter Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 If they are relying on the Holy Spirit and they have no denominational ties , there messages ( as the tribes check there notes) WOULD BE EXACTLY THE SAME...That is the message of faith alone salvation and the redeeming work of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit does not divide ..Its the work of God that brings unity and that happens as we rely on Gods word and NOT church DOCTRINE....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firehill Posted March 19, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2007 If they are relying on the Holy Spirit and they have no denominational ties , there messages ( as the tribes check there notes) WOULD BE EXACTLY THE SAME...That is the message of faith alone salvation and the redeeming work of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit does not divide ..Its the work of God that brings unity and that happens as we rely on Gods word and NOT church DOCTRINE....... Nice screen name! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted March 19, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2007 I prayed to the Holy Spirit before posting. I even prayed for guidance whether or not to reply. There are several intrinsic errors in your hypothetical situation. 1. Despite the fact that neither missionary had any Biblical training, they still had different life experiences to draw upon. 2. Unless they were totally surrendered to Jesus, and leading sinless lives, they will hear the Holy Spirit thru their fallen human "ears". 3. and the biggest error.............if they were truly submitted to Christ and able to discern the Spirits voice, they wouldn't be flying solo. They would be fully engaged in, and obedient to, a Church. God bless, Fiosh WHOA!!!! 1. Are you saying the Holy Spirit does not conform us to One Accord in Christ despite our "life experiences"? 2. The Holy Spirit is only given to those "totally surrendered" but...who leads a totally "sinless lives"? Are you now perfected and without any sin anywhere in your life?? 3. The Scriptures DO NOT place "obedience" to the "church" but to Jesus Alone and Only Him. We are to give benevolence and heed to those Jesus has placed in Authority over us verifying their teachings by the Word of God and "testing the spirits" by that same Word....but, if this latter days has proven anything, few there are that are taking that lead in Christ Jesus. A Spirit filled and Spirit led leader would point to Jesus Only for our Authority for he is nothing of himself and has nothing in him Worthy to teach save the Lord Jesus and His Word. The "Church" was never meant to be in Authority and that is the root of what we see in apostacy today. It (The Church and her leaders) have taken Authority that does not belong to them but to Jesus Christ. I am saying that we are not PERFECTLY conformed to Christ; well, that is unless you claim to be perfect. Your second point actually agrees with what I am saying. As for point 3 : I Tim 3: 15 "the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. " Luke 10: 16 16 "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." " Notice Jesus doesn't say this to all His followers. He appoints 72 disciples...His "church leaders"....and gives them HIS AUTHORITY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCruise Posted March 20, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 633 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/12/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/05/1953 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I am saying that we are not PERFECTLY conformed to Christ; well, that is unless you claim to be perfect. No, not saying that! on my way but .... not quite there. Your second point actually agrees with what I am saying. Well you said "sinless" so I did question that aspect. As for point 3 : I Tim 3: 15 "the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. " Luke 10: 16 16 "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." " Notice Jesus doesn't say this to all His followers. He appoints 72 disciples...His "church leaders"....and gives them HIS AUTHORITY. Actually, Jesus didn't appoint anyone other than the twelve and one them fell into perdition. He had many disciples, sent out about seventy at one point early in His Ministry but, no one actually knows the count total at that point in Luke 10. But I am curious that if you see a specific Authority as "The Church", then which one or denomination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 A Spirit filled and Spirit led leader would point to Jesus Only for our Authority for he is nothing of himself and has nothing in him Worthy to teach save the Lord Jesus and His Word. Amen! "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (1 Corinthians 2:2) Amen! Amen! "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (John 14:26) Amen! Amen! Amen! "For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!" "For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me." "What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel." "For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more." (1 Corinthians 9:16-19) It brings tears of gratitude for Brother Paul and for all the long, lone line of suffering Saints, male and female who carried this priceless Gospel down to such a one as me! I cry Thank You to The Father I cry Thank You to The KING I cry Thank You to The Spirit Oh what a debt I owe Oh what a price He paid Oh how I yearn to be with Jesus In Jesus Love, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firehill Posted March 20, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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