RCruise

In all honesty and as simplistic as it can be put; When God said He has numbered the days of man, He is simply saying that He has set a limit to man's life in the flesh. Many speculate over this but suffice it to say that while some die very young and some (a few actually) make it over the 100 year mark, there is a limit. As to when each of our deaths come, He knew before we were born yet, did not set a specific date for yours or mine individually. As to "set time", no. When He said; "It is appointed unto man once to die and, then the judgement", He is simply saying that each person is only appointed one life to live as they so choose and then they will die. After that death, only Resurrection or Judgement awaits. God did not set the date for anyone's death except for His own, The only Begotten Son sent for just that purpose, Jesus. That death was recorded before any creation was created.

Hello e lansing, I have read your above post and considered it with interest and measure plus have read about half of the responses. There is a Biblical remedy spelled out clearly in several areas of the New Testament and, based solely by what you have posted in the first post, I do not see it fully followed. Understand that I am not judging you or your actions but, looking at the reproof via the light of Scripture. Paul clearly rebuked the Corinthians for not judging sin in their local body (1 Cor. 5 and 6). But the expose' on "how" begins in Galatians: Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. So we see the methodology prescribed with warning that we be aware of our own limitations and approach the person humbly in the Holy Spirit and meekness (without our own pride and agenda involved). Often, we as Pastors and leaders can be more offended by actions of congregants fearing an "undermining" is under way to divide the congregation but, more so, to "dethrone" ourselves. Handling these matters in the wrong way will actually further satan's agenda to do just that. But Jesus said it best on how we are commanded to handle such: Matt 18:15-17 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. In every situation, each individual must be dealt with individually and ourselves void of any "self" agendas or personal fears of outcome. Each one must be dealt with personally first between them and the offended one or the Pastorate of the Church. If they will not repent nor listen and continue, then take witnesses. You had said there is a group of Pastors over you and these would be the ones most likely to take with you. Once it is established before yourself and the witnesses that this person is not willing to repent (whether it is living in sin or, the sin of gossip and division), and they refuse to listen to the Spiritual heads over that congregation, then it must be given as a witness against them before the congregation. Keep in mind that all of these actions from the beginning to the last must be done in humility and lead of the Holy Spirit. A Pastorate and Church that practices this Biblical prescription will only grow and satan is defeated in his attempts to undermine the local body of Christ. Oh, some will leave on their own accord. And some of the congregation will not ostracize the guilty parties but, if the Full Gospel and teachings of Christ are preached continuously and the Holy Ghost is not restrained in that Church, I guarantee you the "Kitchen will become too hot" for the guilty to remain without repenting.

zackly what I say! Of course I have had the benefit of Texan speech from an East Texas Redneck from Porter who got saved in August of 2003. That durned boy can't spell or talk 'cept I have him interpret! Gotten purdy used to his language now tho! LOL! And talk about a "fireball"!! He will lead a fence post to Jesus if'n it stands still long enough! Seriously though, he is a real inspiration and hero of the faith. He has led thousands to Christ and even at a few Biker funerals and one of those he slapped the boy's coffin so hard it made the rough crowd jump! Of course when he slapped it he was telling them how they all don't want to wait until that state (dead) to find Jesus. Got a few of em on the band wagon! Funny part is you would think that would turn people off from having him do their funerals....it got him invited to do more!

LOL!!! Like yer sense of humor .... yep...you are Texan!

LOL!!! and at which verse yod?

OK, much better! I understand where you are coming from and yes, she does need to be able to "trust" Spiritual Leaders again as far as guidance goes. I just needed some clarification because I know many denominations laud that scripture to justify their express rights as much as they (pastors/leaders) sit in Moses' seat. But that was done away with at the Cross and the Veil was rent. Jesus took all the Priest Leadership of the Law of Moses upon Himself and not just their positions in the Temple but the Holy Priesthood after the order of Melchisedec which is more fully explained in Hebrews 7:1-13 The other problem is who can be trusted especially when we have the likes of Joel Osteen and others of the "feel good" but "no Jesus" preaching crowd? A close personal relationship intimately built daily in Jesus Christ is the Only Way and Guide. Then we can see the "Fruits" or lack thereof.

Many have given very good Spiritual advice as well as myself that if you will just "begin" with Jesus alone, praying and talking with Him and getting into His Word, He will set all things in order for and in you! Did you know Jesus Himself reached points of discouragement? Paul also felt betrayed by one who traveled with him as well. People will let us down. Even our parents and loved ones will let us down. It is all about our "Expectations" of one another. When a person truly relies on Jesus as He tells us to for every aspect of our lives. When we become so intimate with Jesus as He commands (remember that He says we must Love Him more than any flesh relative or loved one), suddenly another shadow or scale falls off of our Spiritual eyes and we see how unreasonable it is to expect anything more from anyone than Our own Love for them. We cannot even expect their love to continue yet, when Christ lives in us fully, our Love never fails because His Love for and inside of us never fails. This is a Supernatural thing, that cannot be understood in our minds. I find this is hard for people to realize until you just "do it" (as Nike says in their slogan ... lol). But it works! Jesus rose alive from the dead in Spirit and Flesh! He then rose directly up in the flesh being transformed into His Glorious body at the right hand of The Father. So when He promises He will be in us, He means it. There is a song by Randy Travis called "I'm gonna Raise Him Up" which is so beautifully true! At the end of the song is the refrain "You gotta Raise Him (Jesus) Up". You can only do that when you submit all to Him and get in touch with Him daily as He said. We counsel people and have found the biggest problem in marriages within the Church is not the finances or attention neglect so many fight about, it is that neither party had "Raised Him Up" in their hearts and let Jesus be the Lord over all their hearts and desires and expectations. I have had schooling and training in all forms of Christian Counseling but it wasn't until I practiced this very simple yet powerful aspect myself in my own life and "Raised Jesus Up" in my own heart for real, that it became evidence in my own life and as well as those in trouble. More married couples have gone away from our sessions healed and better than ever than they did before we brought it into the counseling. That's the Secret Key that isn't really a "Secret" except between you and Jesus personally!

OK, I still do not understand then. You quoted Jesus telling His followers to obey the Temple leaders because they sit in Moses' seat. I am just trying to see where that has anything to do with this young lady's hurt and disappointment I guess?

Mind if I ask a simple question? Are you saying that the pastors and leaders today "sit in Moses' seat"?

You are not alone for there are many who do the same thing. People tend to put people up on pedestals for leadership and guidance only to find them fail them later. I even knew a mentor of mine who was upset because Jimmy Swaggart fell into adultery (not once but twice) and a close friend of his fell from serving Christ after 30 years. My mentor's anger was directed at Swaggart. This is all wrong. Our Salvation and subsequent ongoing Spiritual growth and cleansing has nothing to do with men or women but just Jesus. Our focus and lives are to be wrapped up in Him alone and not anyone of the flesh. He said so Himself. Jesus promises us HE will move into us and abide in us and guide us through the Holy Spirit. If you have not done so, you need to just get alone with Jesus in prayer and seek Him out alone. He WILL answer, He always does. He Promised it! Then get into His Word focusing on Him and listening as you read, He will guide you.

WOW!!! 27 pages of which I could not read all but got the ideas of many. Larry 2 asked a simple question of "when the Tribulation begins" and it spawned (as usually does) a lot of response. I see John in Revelations 6 revealing much. The seals 1-4 each represent actions already occurred or still occurring since there is no ending of each mentioned. My point is that they have been opened. Now the fifth seal event as far as "when" is not given so it could already have happened or may yet need to occur since it is in Heaven. The sixth seal has not occurred for we have not seen the stars fall nor sun blackened etc.... Yet, these are the very same events Jesus describes in Matthew 24:29-30 which occurs "immediately After that Great Tribulation". So, one could say that the Great Tribulation by Jesus' own words in Matthew 24 occurs after the antichrist sets up an image to the "beast" in the Holy of Holies (Matt 24:15) creates his "mark" and ushers in the Great Tribulation. Now when are the dead in Christ raised and the living in Christ caught up? After the events of the sixth seal. In Matthew 24:31 Jesus then sends the Angels to gather His elect. This agrees with John's vision of the seals in Revelation 7:1 and in 7:9, John for the first time sees a multitude no man can number in the throne room (remember that he gives an account of the throne room before and some during the opening of the seals). He is then told these are the rest (besides those under the alter killed for Christ's sake) of those who came through the Great Tribulation. So what next? The seventh and final seal which brings silence first .... then the Wrath of God. The problem as I see it is people mix Great Tribulation up with Wrath period and neither are mentioned together nor as simultaneous events in The Word of God. The "time" period Daniel speaks of (three and half years) is cleary the events of antichrist and earth during the Wrath and not the Great Tribulation. I do not see nor read any support of a specific time allotted to the Great Tribulation where antichrist and beast rule and torment and put to death Christians (which they will). So Larry, The Great Tribulation will begin after antichrist sets up the image of the beast in the holy of holies in the New Temple which is not built as yet. But I see it coming soon as Obama and others pressure Israel into concessions so that they can then pressure the Palestianians and world of Islam to allow the building of the Temple next to the Mosque: Revelation 11:1-2 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. I find it amazing that they have unearthed original foundations and evidence that the Temple of Solomon was actually off the side. They are still trying to fit how it laid out but, I believe it is clear if they just point the Outer Court to the Mosque, they will be able to build it as it was just not that Court or courtyard area.

There are many things we take for granted that are going off the top of the "costs scale" in these last days. Gasoline is only one of them. The book of Revelation tells us that when the "horsemen ride" all prices will go out of sight ... doubling, tripling, etc.... and even indications that products, food products will be "hurt" or in short supply do to natural disasters. They (the hosemen) are told not to hurt the "oil or the wine". We have witnessed all sorts of shortages and food disasters from floods to infections like e-coli and salmanila (sp?) but, olive oil and grapes have not been really affected. And neither is the saint in as much as any sort of lack. My point is is that we are to continue in the Faith and showing Faith that God will supply our every need until Jesus returns! That may require changes in our daily lives and habits but, as David said; "In all of my years/life, I have never seen the righteous forsaken nor begging for bread..."(paraphrased). The Lord moved us (my wife and myself) out of mainline church to initiate meetings in our (and others) homes. I have forseen that as the antichrist gains more power (even before his revealing) and control over the buying and selling of anything, that "money" will not be an option much longer and that is what is required to purchase gasoline and pay rent/mortgages/heating/cooling, et al in any church building. I expect that over the next few years we (my wife and I ) will need to shed a lot of possessions and may need to move into portable housing like a tent or whatever and travel by foot as Jesus and Paul did. If so, so be it. But I know we will never lack before during or even after the antichrist and world systems have utter control for their breif and greivous moments.

If I can add anything to some already beautiful advice : I am a man who struggled with relationships/marriage at various times in my life and until I became serious about Christ, this continued. First, God has always demanded First place in any of His people's hearts. Jesus re-enforced this in Matt 10:37 and Luke 14:26. Someone (I believe heiress) posted something to the effect of God desiring to fill the place where a spouse or beloved has left a void in our hearts. True but.... God demands to have had that place first before anyone ever took or was given it. Brother FresnoJoe posted the perfect Scripture: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:33 It was only when I spent a year doing so and (unbeknown to me) a woman in Texas I had never met ( I lived in Oregon ) did the same after each of our respective spouses left us for someone else, that we encountered each other in a Christian forum similiar to this one. But, neither of us had any inclination or desire for each other. It was only while I was forwarding my Biblical work about the lies of these end times (i.e. Left Behind lies, etc...) that The Lord spoke to me and told me to tell her I loved her. I was taken aback! I resisted because as far as I knew, I DIDN'T love her and had never met her! But He very quickly while in the middle of my "protest" reminded me that I quit dating, turned all of this over to Him, and had trusted that if there was someone for me; she would have to love Him more than me and He would have to pick her out, show me her Himself and open all the doors (that no man including myself could shut) and confirm to both of us in miraculous ways we would each know. We were married 6 months later in June 2000 and have never known such bliss and love nor a combined love for Jesus that was ever so powerful. Eight years and never an argument or fight and our love has only increased! But this only came about because we followed the very verse above. God pre-arranged our marriage the old fashioned way and it is perfect! And both of us still put Jesus First before each other. There is NO Such thing as a "Soul Mate" except Jesus! No one else belongs there except Him and He will not tolerate anyone else in His Place in your heart. Is God in the "Spouse Replacement business"? No.... We know of many more marriages that have been healed and set right when at least one of the spouses were willing to submit and follow the above Scripture prescription! In most of their cases the other spouse became Christ's and was born again and their marriage was healed and every bit as blissful and full as my own! If Jesus is not in that special deepest heart place in each of us, He is not enthroned or "On The Throne" of your heart and nothing will ever work or be right in any area including relationships until He is. Blessings in Christ Jesus Brother Ron Cruise

Dear alwayswishing, first, is this a scenario or something that actually happened to you? I guess one must ask yourself whether it is more important to follow Christ or man to begin with. Of course I never recommend any woman stay in a physically abusive home. NEVER! I Always recommend getting away from such and finding a safe haven. And, I have put myself between the bully and spouse before and would do it again. Never been hit so far thanks to Jesus and His Holy Spirit. Praise God! And I am not so righteous to believe it is because of my size (6'2" 265lbs) or because I am a preacher. I have seen these violent men blast away at cops my size and bigger with no respect or regard for anything. No, it is the Holy Ghost stepping in as I pray. But, I will always counsel against Divorce except for adultery and, even then, I have seen marriages where adultery was, come back together totally healed and a new person (man) by Jesus Christ where the adultering man was before. The problem with "church" today and many preachers is they try to step into God's place ... a place Jesus reserve's only for Himself.... when counseling married couples. And they end up making it worse. At least in the Lord's eyes. Without explicitly following the Word (of which Jesus is), they subjugate His Power with their own will. I am a Holy Spirit filled led of the Holy Ghost preacher. Never will I believe any "spirit(s)" pretending to be God or that "sound good" or "solid" when it dives outside the Direct and Absolute Word of God. And few men in the ministry follow that today. As for verbal abuse, I don't believe in it. It is a tag that has come along only in the latter half of the twentieth century. Jesus as well as every True Christian since Him have endured that and worse. What is words? NOTHING. They called Jesus the "prince of the devils" ; "Beelzebub" to be exact. And Jesus said if they called Him that how much worse will they treat His servants. I believe if a person, man or woman, who is locked into Jesus Christ solidly as He so commands us to be and to walk daily, no amount of "words" or "emotional/verbal abuse" can affect us one iota. God Bless Pastor Ron Cruise Jesus Walk Ministries

Hi Jewel, Understand, I am not instructing or telling you what to do but, you asked for Scriptural reference and I hadn't seen where anyone brought the Bible directly into play. I am a 54 year old Preacher/Evangelist who came into serving Christ only the last 10 years solidly. I have studied and prayed and studied hard over marriage for I myself had three failed marriages before coming to Jesus. (Actually, the third left me because I chose to become a Christian....she was atheist). I hung in there for a year refusing to divorce for I knew how God felt about divorce in that first year of studying His Word. We started to reconcile once (not divorced as yet but separated) and that same evening I was going to spend the night at her residence. But the Spirit of God came on me heavily and said not to do it for we were not reconciled nor would she ever do so and allow me to serve Him. I had been praying for a reconciliation but understood Him well. It was a good thing to listen to Him for she had been secretly seeing two other men and had contracted AIDS. Had I slept with her, I would have it as well. This caused me to dig deep not only for my own understanding but because divorce has become too easy a thing for so many in the Body of Christ. I wanted a clear and concise understanding before I became ordained unto my Calling which He called me into. She has since slept with many men. We divorced and I waited until God spoke to me and led me 2500 miles down into Texas to pair me with a wife He had chosen for me. She is a beautiful Christian woman who supports and joins me in all Jesus leads us into within the Ministry. We have been married since June of 2000 blissfully, blessedly, abundantly without never a cross word or argument between us. So what I guess I am saying is that God may not have your former spouse in mind but, you will never know until you seek Jesus so deeply that He Will Answer and show you and lead you correctly unto His Will for you. Anything I have to say (besides instruction from His Word) or anyone else here, in the pulpit or offices of your church, or whereever, really does not add up to one little tidbit of anything compared to what Jesus will lead and tell you in. God Bless Pastor Ron Cruise Jesus Walk Ministries

Why is being married again not a possibility...I think that is where you need to be questioning... b/c he is an alcoholic Then this is sex wothout commitment, it is a lie, and very confusing to both parties involved. In fact, you are contributing to his problem and you become an enabler and co-dependent. You need to stop rationalizing this delusion. Marry him and help him solve his problem or clearly define your relationship absent of sexual or romantic involvement. I have made it clear to him that I will not have sex with him b/c we are no longer married. He states that b/c he never wanted the divorce in the first place that he still considers us to be married. I just wish I had some scripture to quote to him when the subject comes up. We have two teenagers together, so it's not like I can completely shut him out of my life at this point, nor do i really want to. You are right, I was completely co-dependant on him but have not been for a long time. I don't help him with anything, I don't depend on him for anything. It's just when this subject comes up, I haven't been able to argue effectively enough to convince him that b/c I divorced him that it would be wrong to do, whether we still love each other or not. WOW!!! Lots of stuff in here since I have been away. Jewels, if I may interject for several reasons; one being you asked for Scriptural reference and; two, I see a major problem in definitions of "Marriage". First and most important is the reference Paul gives in I Cor chpt 7; 1 Corinthians 7:1-17 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. It is important to note that your current situation (if you have sexual relations with your estranged husband) is "Defrauding" each of you. For you are not "Reconciled" therefore not in a God Ordained relationship with each other. And please make note Paul is very careful to say this is from The Lord and not of himself. It is not clear who "Left" who in your marriage nor does it matter nor should you put much of any other information out here. The point is, is that Jesus Himself gave only one allowable reason for divorce and that being fornication/adultery and none other. Not Alcoholism, not instability in finances, etc.... Divorce has entered the Believing Church at a beyond alarming rate yet few stand up and call it what it is: An abomination in God's eyes. He intricately weaves marriage and set it's foundations as synonomous with His own relationship with us. To break those vows outside of His ordained laws is doing the same to Him personally. That is why Jesus said; "whatsoever God hath joined together, let NO man put asunder.." So conclusively, Scripture abounds that condemns having unReconciled marriage relations when that Marriage itself is not Reconciled fully. It is really no difference than having an adulterous relationship in God's eyes. Now you say that you still love your husband and this is very good. Pray for him....pray for him fervently and without ceasing (as we are so commanded by Jesus). Paul says that even if your husband is an unbeliever, you should not depart for you do not know how God may utilize you in his salvation. In your case, you must do so alone and unreconciled for you are divorced. But know that Jesus Christ still reigns over All and particularly God Ordained arenas! And He can reconcile your marriage only with a "New Man" ... a "Regenerated Man" out of your husband.

My heart goes out to you, honey. My heart was so broken I thought I would die from the pain. A sizable group of prayer warriors were praying with me for my ex to give up the other woman. But when it became clear that he was going to marry her, they began to back off, even hinting that maybe it was God's will. When he did marry her, and I said I still wasn't giving up, I was met with "He's married now", as if he was married in God's eyes. It threw me for a loop. I can understand that, Kat. I just cannot handle the pain of this anymore. There was someone I was very strongly interested in on that chat site---granted it was one-sided, but it distracted me from all my other problems. I found out last night he has a girlfriend, and it just shattered everything. Once again, I felt all the pain and agony from my ongoing marriage woes, and I deleted my account on that site. When I was talking to a friend from there, he told me to "forget about him (the guy I was interested in) and come back". Hard to do when he's always there. So now here I am, feeling lonelier than ever, so much so that I make a decision not to go to church today and stay home. My ex had affairs with men. It's not like he's going to marry any of them, since gay marriage hasn't been approved in Florida and likely won't be. In the meantime, I just have to go on with life the way I've always gone, just a little bit lonelier and sadder with each experience. Anita If I can step in on this gently; The reason so many others are telling you "rules" of marriage and divorce is because it is rules of acceptable doctrine adopted throughout most denominations for one not to date or act single until such time as a "Legal Divorce" is obtained. The problem is they do not have a "Biblical Leg to stand on..." Marriage as seen by God is not the Legalistic License and Divorcement we have today. If it were A LOT of people will be in trouble with Him when we stand before Him. Plus, many want to apply "Rules of Doctrine" as though they were Law and enforce them upon others whether those others are Christian or not but, especially when they are Christian. Jesus nailed the "Enforcement of God's Laws -- Ordinances" to the cross 2000 years ago turning The Law into nothing without Salvation and Grace in Him Alone and Loving Acceptance of God's Laws into our hearts when we Accept Him - Jesus - into our hearts. That is the ONLY way the Law can be "written on the fleshy tables of our hearts". From what you have said in here, you Never had a marriage to begin with and...Paul tells us that when an unbelieving spouse leaves, we are IMMEDIATELY free from that Bond of Marriage. Period. Yet it is good to remain unmarried and portray ourselves as such seeking the Lord more deeply pouring all our focus into Him. I had to learn this the hard way and when I did wait upon the Lord and held firm not to date or rush into another marriage I was so sure was of Him, He then brought my wife Dolly into my life. Never met her, never saw her but, met through online Group Ministry. When it was time, He spoke to each of us and confirmed it BUT..... only after each one of us had spent nearly a year and half focusing only on HIM - Jesus. We have been blissfully married for eight years and never so much as an argument or trouble. That's God! But it came with sacrifice of our hearts and minds and bodies to His Word and total submission to Obey All His Word before He ever revealed anything to each of us. We know it is a lonely world out there and usually pain and heartache await many ... yes many Christians also... who believe they found their God Given Soul mate and only in short order have their heart ripped to shreds. But we serve the Master of Heart Surgery and if we will only submit fully to All He has to say in His Word and by His Spirit which never deviates from His Word, Joy unspeakable awaits! The funny thing is, I would never have chosen Dolly by sight if I had seen her and was looking for a wife on my own. She is not ugly but just not what I preferred looks wise....THANK GOD! She is the most Beautiful woman inside and outside since His Revelation to us both almost eight years ago. But see, I would never have seen her that way before Jesus did a lot of "Overhauling" on me. In my almost ten years as a minister, I have seen God Heal marriages ... even where Adultery was involved and save the souls of both spouses! And I have seen Him take hold in one while the marriage continue to deteriorate to divorce and the other left or they left right away. Many push that God will salvage a marriage and, He WILL .... IF .... Both are submitted to Him. God NEVER Forces ANYONE to serve Him nor remain with someone who does serve Him. "His Will" is that Jesus is Glorified in "as many who will..." and salvation comes to the same. All else and everyone else.....well we know their outcome as well as our own just, theirs is not pretty or peaceful.

I did not throw false accusations at you so you can relax. You opened up with in your last repsonse to about translations and whether or not we have one that is untainted by human theological leanings. That line of questioning around here is usually how the KJV only folks lead into their attack. It is simply hinted that you might be headed that way I did not accuse you of anything, but I simply headed off what I saw as a KJV translation debate, at the pass. We have only had about a million people jump on our boards and argue that the KJV is a pure translation and untainted and is the only "Word of God in English. So, your question raised a suspicion that was not at all unfounded from where I sit. As to your question again, I already said that the human element cannot be factored out of anything we do for the Lord. God's message is pure, and without flaw, but our understanding is flawed, and as such God has managed to perserve the truth put forth in the Word through imperfect vessels. We are incapable of producing an English translation that is completely flawless, but God has amazingly been able to preserve the integrity and force of the doctrines and teachings He inspired to be present in the Scriptures. Fair enough! Was that so hard? For the record, I have been a member since 2003, was absent for a little less than 2 years. And I am a KJV person but don't argue or debate over it. I believe however that what you put forth in your original post about factoring these flaws in, is not the way to All Truth in Christ. James said it best: James 1:5-8 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. I do believe the KJV is pure and true to every exact detail and meaning of the Received Text and that greater scholars and linguists than ourselves have proven that. But, that is my personal conviction and wisdom from The Lord. I used the NIV and other versions in times past but found the conflicts. It was when I saw this verse in James that I realized God WILL answer if asked in exact accordance of Faith as James has put forth. And not just about "versions/translations" which are nominal in importance but on every level and detail about Himself and our directions in His Will and Ways. But in agreement with you about debates and arguments I do agree and say they are unprofitable and lead to more damage and no good thing. Yes, so my suspicion which you tried to pretend was out in left field was not so far off after all... So was it just what I said about the translations that you had a problem with? I was addressing comments made by the person who opened up the thread with a scenario based more on the ideal, than the real world. Was there something else in my response that troubled you? OK Shilo, I will stop asking you anything, alright? Because you are totally out there in left field. I never questioned or even mentioned versions/translations issues but simply asked you to clarify your statement that we really do not have an English version that is not corrupted by man's theologies. Go back and read every post. But, this is the last one I will post to you on the subject for you are going off the deep end with paranoia again accusing me of something totally false. And I don't want to hijack the thread, was never my intention. Blessings in Jesus Ron

I did not throw false accusations at you so you can relax. You opened up with in your last repsonse to about translations and whether or not we have one that is untainted by human theological leanings. That line of questioning around here is usually how the KJV only folks lead into their attack. It is simply hinted that you might be headed that way I did not accuse you of anything, but I simply headed off what I saw as a KJV translation debate, at the pass. We have only had about a million people jump on our boards and argue that the KJV is a pure translation and untainted and is the only "Word of God in English. So, your question raised a suspicion that was not at all unfounded from where I sit. As to your question again, I already said that the human element cannot be factored out of anything we do for the Lord. God's message is pure, and without flaw, but our understanding is flawed, and as such God has managed to perserve the truth put forth in the Word through imperfect vessels. We are incapable of producing an English translation that is completely flawless, but God has amazingly been able to preserve the integrity and force of the doctrines and teachings He inspired to be present in the Scriptures. Fair enough! Was that so hard? For the record, I have been a member since 2003, was absent for a little less than 2 years. And I am a KJV person but don't argue or debate over it. I believe however that what you put forth in your original post about factoring these flaws in, is not the way to All Truth in Christ. James said it best: James 1:5-8 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. I do believe the KJV is pure and true to every exact detail and meaning of the Received Text and that greater scholars and linguists than ourselves have proven that. But, that is my personal conviction and wisdom from The Lord. I used the NIV and other versions in times past but found the conflicts. It was when I saw this verse in James that I realized God WILL answer if asked in exact accordance of Faith as James has put forth. And not just about "versions/translations" which are nominal in importance but on every level and detail about Himself and our directions in His Will and Ways. But in agreement with you about debates and arguments I do agree and say they are unprofitable and lead to more damage and no good thing. I guess shiloh had you pegged correctly as a KJV-Only-er It'll be hard for this not to turn into one of those debates in light of the comments you made above. But if you want to advocate that the KJV is inerrant, that should probably be left for another thread. LOL! No....not so kabowd. As I said, I don't debate it or debase others for what version they use. I was simply being honest that I do espouse the King James personally. Now, if honesty is a crime, I'm guilty. My original posting to shiloh was one of asking him/her for clarity on a broad statement that none of the English versions we have are untainted by man's theologies. I never once and still have not got into a version questioning issue and won't.

Hi Smalcald, First, you cannot separate Faith from Salvation. When I spoke of Faith, I spoke of the degree or "measure" of Faith. Sanctification is by the once and forever offering of Christ's Blood and sealed by The Holy Spirit. We fairly well agree on most of this. I do not speak in tongues and have been judged unfairly in times past and there are some who say you are not saved. They lie. Paul also said to seek the Gift of Prophesying more than tongues for Prophesy Edifies the Body. Some take this to mean a new and currently unknown thing and even some believe this prophesying is only done through tongues with interpretation. They are in derision and have not studied that they might have wisdom of God and not man. My Gift as The Lord has revealed in me is to teach and exhort His Word in Love as you mentioned Paul brought forth to the Corinthians. Oddly, my wife and I have found that when we pray together binding in Love, we see the Lord move yet, when we have prayed apart, they are not as effectual. We have a prayer ministry within our ministry where we have many people and other Churches and Ministries onboard praying. Yet, we together (my wife and myself), found that when we bind these Requests we receive in unity of prayer, answers come quickly for the simplist to the most urgent. It is a Gift of God by the Holy Spirit. But I also know this, that not all who believe they have the Holy Spirit do. Not all in Scripture had Received Him even upon Believing and repenting at the first. Evidence proves in the Word that He did not come until the laying on of hands in Samaria(Philip, Peter and, John Acts 8:14-17) Cornelius at Peter's preaching(Acts 10:44) and Paul in Ephesus (Acts 19:2-6). I believe much of the preaching today on the Holy Ghost is in error in both camps and do not fit to the Word of God. In many "charismatic" camps, they seek the "signs" more than the sanctification and sealing. In many non or anti charismatic camps, they deny the Glory and Witness of Christ Jesus contained in His manifestations as a witness to His Glory. I "rode the fence" for a while on this for I saw the damage and falsehoods on both sides prevailing more than the Truth. But The Lord has taken me off "my fence" and narrowed the path in His Truth by His Word and The Holy Spirit. But He had to do this by my seeking deeper into Him. It comes no other way. I believe it was simpler in those days of Paul and Peter for there was no huge amounts of derisions and confusion with permeations of doctrines on Christianity then. satan loves to deceive and stop the Power of God moving in Jesus Christ and His Body. he does this by deceptions and fears. Some see the "deceptions" on one side (not looking at the Glory that doesn't deceive in some Manifestations) and fear of going the wrong way into that deception sets in with guarded mindset thereby deceiving and covering the eyes of the cautious as well. But, this I know; Perfect Love (only found in Jesus) will prevail if we so seek and laying aside all fears and doubts allowing Him to break the strongholds within us, we will see His Glory, Receive His Holy Ghost and be far better equipped and empowered to do His Work, no matter what the Gift or Gifts He gives unto us.

I did not throw false accusations at you so you can relax. You opened up with in your last repsonse to about translations and whether or not we have one that is untainted by human theological leanings. That line of questioning around here is usually how the KJV only folks lead into their attack. It is simply hinted that you might be headed that way I did not accuse you of anything, but I simply headed off what I saw as a KJV translation debate, at the pass. We have only had about a million people jump on our boards and argue that the KJV is a pure translation and untainted and is the only "Word of God in English. So, your question raised a suspicion that was not at all unfounded from where I sit. As to your question again, I already said that the human element cannot be factored out of anything we do for the Lord. God's message is pure, and without flaw, but our understanding is flawed, and as such God has managed to perserve the truth put forth in the Word through imperfect vessels. We are incapable of producing an English translation that is completely flawless, but God has amazingly been able to preserve the integrity and force of the doctrines and teachings He inspired to be present in the Scriptures. Fair enough! Was that so hard? For the record, I have been a member since 2003, was absent for a little less than 2 years. And I am a KJV person but don't argue or debate over it. I believe however that what you put forth in your original post about factoring these flaws in, is not the way to All Truth in Christ. James said it best: James 1:5-8 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. I do believe the KJV is pure and true to every exact detail and meaning of the Received Text and that greater scholars and linguists than ourselves have proven that. But, that is my personal conviction and wisdom from The Lord. I used the NIV and other versions in times past but found the conflicts. It was when I saw this verse in James that I realized God WILL answer if asked in exact accordance of Faith as James has put forth. And not just about "versions/translations" which are nominal in importance but on every level and detail about Himself and our directions in His Will and Ways. But in agreement with you about debates and arguments I do agree and say they are unprofitable and lead to more damage and no good thing.

The human element cannot be factored out of any of the translations we are in possession of. I am not going to get into a KJV only debate if that is where you are headed. Any attempt to bait me into debate about which translation is THE Word of God will simply be ignored, as it would end up hijacking the purpose of the thread. I suggest if your agenda is to get into a debate about translations, that you look elsewhere, as I know what I believe, and you will not change my mind. Did I even attempt to lean that way??? I was asking you to clarify what you were saying. You did not seem to understand what I was asking in relation to your earlier post so I narrowed it down to that specific quote and then simply put forth what I understood you to be saying and even asked you if that was correct! So, take it easy Shilo. Not a problem. There was never even a hint of KJV only debate and I did not even bring up the KJV in my posts except for your list quoted from you. sheesh. I asked you originally if your stance was that ALL the versions or translations were tainted with man's theological stances. If you cannot defend your position without getting riled and defensive and throwing false accusations at me, I guess that pretty much sums it up and answers all my questions. Blessings in Christ Jesus, Brother Ron Cruise

Hi Smalcald; I thought I made it clear in the post that this is Not a Salvation issue? I believe it is a Faith issue but, we are saved by "Grace through Faith" both given of God. How much we Take or "partake" of both is up to us. I believe our Faith has to be and will be "tried" to purify it and build it. If we refuse or resist, I see a danger of people walking away or departing from the really hard and Tribulational times today and the worse that's coming. But, no, Salvation is exactly what The Scripture says it is. It is a perpetual abiding on our part in the Free Gift and architecting by Jesus Christ.

Hello Arthur, Do you believe in "tongues" for today or The Gifts of the Holy Spirit? You seem to allude that Angels only speak in "earthly" or languages of men and that we could never speak such language considered "tongues of Angels" which could be totally unknowledgable to human ears. You further seem to say Scripture is absent on this. I beg to differ with you: Jesus' Promise: Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Cornelius' house: Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Paul in Ephesus: Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Paul: Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Paul in Corinth on the Gifts: 1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. I will stop at this point. Paul is not saying that "unknown tongues" or language is bad but that if you speak it in the Church, it doesn't edify anyone except there be interpretation. But, if we speak in a language between us and God, it DOES edify the Spirit, just not our own understanding. He spoke to how the spirit will make intercession in groanings which cannot be uttered. The Greek for "groanings" and "cannot be uttered" (phrase) is a noise (could be unknown tongue as well) that "are not understood when spoken". In other words, not understandable as anything understandable to the flesh ears of man. And I point to where Paul refered in Cor 13:1 to two kinds of tongues; a language of men and a language of "Angels". He also clarifies in verse Cor 14:2 that an unknown (non understood or interpreted) tongue or language is not spoke unto men but unto God and does not forbid this (in a private, not in the assembly without interpretation) but admits in the spirit he speaks mysteries. All in All, Paul admits to participating in both types of languages and even more than all those in Corinth put together. He does admonish them to openly only speak that which edifies the Body gathered though. Keep the other in private between ourselves and God. PS: your homepage in your profile is not the same as your freeyellow in your sig. The one in your profile seems to be suspended or down.

Ok, Perhaps a more narrowed quote from your post that first caught my eye: you said; You seem to be asserting that none of the translations in English we have today, are without flesh theological influence of the men who did the translation. Am I correct in this?