WN: Rudy Giuliani Tells Pro-Life Advocates: Get Over Abortion Issue -

[Giaour]

Yes, he is a mormon.

But his moral standards are close to mine.

His salvation is between him and God.

[Giaour]

do you have a link?

I'd like to read more of the article.

Or was that all of it?

I'll check into Fred.

[Guest LadyC]

Shalom,

He's also a Mormon I believe.

what does that have to do with whether or not he'd make a good president? i'm just curious.

his religion doesn't have any impact on whether or not i'd vote for him. at this point, i'm pretty sure i would. he's running for the presidency of the united states, not for the pastoral position in my church.

ps, i was thinking he was pro-life... now that i think about it, i think his firm stance of opposition that i was thinking of was on partial birth abortions.

[Tubal-Cain]

I can't vote for anyone that doesnt see the value of human life, even the life that is growing within the womb.

Do you also refuse to vote for those who support the death penalty?

Death penalty can be Biblically supported.

I can vote for someone who supports it.

That means you can support someone who does not see the value of all human life. You just insist that s/he sees the value in what you deem innocent human life.

[Tubal-Cain]

Do you agree that abortion (on those who feel pain and can cry) is a form of a death penalty placed on the unborn?

Yes, which is why I oppose later term abortions. I am also against the death penalty as humans make errors.

[rtwo]

Yes, definitely thanks for posting the Thompson interview. I was for him before; even more so now.

And really, based on his reasoning for the campaign finance, I can certainly understand his vote on the subject. I think money has no place in politics.

[Tubal-Cain]

If you want to try to show an inconsistency here, you are inconsistent yourself in not opposing all abortions.

I am consistent in that I extend moral consideration to all creatures with desires. Early in pregnancy the embryo/fetus does not have desires.

Regardless, there is a difference in killing an innocent baby and putting to death a convicted killer.

I'm quite aware of the difference. I merely wanted to see if Giaour valued all life or just what she deemed innocent life.

These laws were given to Israel by God himself. No, we are not required as a nation to impose a death penalty, but the fact God set up a death penalty for those who commit murder shows it is right in his sight.

I have no problem with the death penalty in theory but in practice it kills innocent people. Hence I must oppose it. If pro-lifers are worried about innocent life being killed by abortion then they should be worried about innocent life being killed by the death penalty. The Catholic Church is consistent on this matter but, inexplicably, many Protestants are not.

In addition, he says that the taking of innocent life defiles a land, and the only way to cleanse the land is by putting to death the killer. That is a pretty good argument to me in favor of the death penalty. There were always mistakes made where someone fell through the cracks and was falsely accused and put to death, and God had to know that would happen, but he still instituted the death penalty in spite of that, so that argument doesn't work.

Ancient Israel did not have the prison system that we have. We can be nearly certain that if we want to lock someone up for life they will be locked up for life. We are capable of meting out justice and preserving innocent life if there is an erroneous conviction (and hopefully correcting that error). Ancient Israel did not have this prison system so it would have been safer to execute the guilty after a trial.

You fail to note the vast differences between the modern US and ancient Israel and so your suggestion is wrong. As a Christian you are to uphold justice and so the best way to uphold justice in the modern US (not in ancient Israel) is to abolish the death penalty and push for life in prison.

[Tubal-Cain]

So now the reason why you support abortion early on is the unborn baby doesn't have desires?

Don't act surprised. That's been my contention all along.

A person in a coma doesn't have desires either. Would you justify putting them to death as well?

If someone in a coma leaves a will that states they want to die under such a scenario I say we respect their choice.

Your excuse about innocents occassionally being executed holds no water because that has always occured in rare instances.

It does hold water because if there was no death penalty no innocents would ever be put to death. If the death penalty exists then innocents will die. There is a clear choice between being OK with some innocents dying (the choice you choose) and doing everything to we can to make sure the state does not execute an innocent person (the choice I choose).

It happened in the Old Testament.

As I noted earlier, there is a huge difference between ancient Israel and modern America.

As far as killers remaining locked up, it wasn't that long ago convicted murderers escaped from a maximum security prison in Texas and went on a crime spree. No prison is fool proof.

I never claimed prisons are fool proof so you're attacking a straw man. I said they do a very good job of keeping murderers out of society if we keep them locked up for life.

In addition, the scriptures I posted say that the only way the land can be cleansed of the blood shed by a killer is by the shedding of his or her blood, something else you neglected to re-post.

I think it's bad exegesis to equate a statement given to ancient Israel with America. You seem to prefer following the letter of the law (execute murderers) over the spirit of the law (justice and protecting the innocent) while I take the opposite approach.

[Tubal-Cain]

Your thinking appears to be flawed

[Guest newlifechristian]

I don't mean to inspire controversy here, but I am curious.

What makes abortion the be-all end-all issue for many here? Besides the obvious moral complications with it, why would abortion be the one deciding factor on supporting someone. I mean, for me someone who is strict on abortion rules would be a plus, but it is not my priority for a representative. For many here, it seems that abortion is one of the top issues for a candidate, and if they support abortion it is an immediate loss of support. Why is this? If I agreed with a candidate on all their ideas except for abortion, I would still support the candidate, while it sounds like many here would not.

I agree. I think the abortion issue is HUGE and Guiliani's remarks were WAY off, but there is so much more. Human life being lost daily in Iraq; the education of our children who will be my leaders when I am elderly; appointment to Supreme Court; intervention of government into our lives; gun regulation (whichever way);keeping us safe; keeping us free! Yes we do live in a free country where we can worship when and how we like and we can VOTE! I am anxious to see how the candidates voice their views on many other topics. The hard part is so I really believe them or not!!!!!!