Are the scriptures self-sufficient?

[EricH]

I split out the posts dealing with faith vs works to its own thread in this forum

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=60102

[Metropolitan]

Simply put, the Scriptures are the prophecy of God. It concerns His plan of love and redemption for mankind, and His provision for a Saviour to reconcile us to Him, and how we can achieve right relationship with Him, and be His hands, feet and voice to this dark place, bringing the lost to Him through the power of the Holy Spirit which is taught in those very Scriptures.

John 5:39

"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!

Greetings to you, F.A

So what are known as scriptures? Only the O.T? Cause thats what Jesus and the other jews read in the temple? If so all of the O.T or some of it?

Or is the entire set of 66 books in the bible are scriptures? But you have quoted a verse from the apostle John, which obviously refers to the Old Testament only!

God Bless

[Floatingaxe]

Simply put, the Scriptures are the prophecy of God. It concerns His plan of love and redemption for mankind, and His provision for a Saviour to reconcile us to Him, and how we can achieve right relationship with Him, and be His hands, feet and voice to this dark place, bringing the lost to Him through the power of the Holy Spirit which is taught in those very Scriptures.

John 5:39

"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!

Greetings to you, F.A

So what are known as scriptures? Only the O.T? Cause thats what Jesus and the other jews read in the temple? If so all of the O.T or some of it?

Or is the entire set of 66 books in the bible are scriptures? But you have quoted a verse from the apostle John, which obviously refers to the Old Testament only!

God Bless

The Old Testament is authoritatively Scripture, and so, in the same way, God inspired those who knew Jesus intimately and also Paul to write the basis of the New Covenant. As God was so able to delineate the Old Covenant, He is also so able to relate to mankind His New Covenant with us, through the Messiah!

It has been done, and so we have it! We are a blessed generation! We mustn't scoff at God's great work.

[Metropolitan]

So F.A..The N.T is not part of the scipture?

[Floatingaxe]

So F.A..The N.T is not part of the scipture?

What? Yes it is!

[Metropolitan]

So F.A..The N.T is not part of the scipture?

I don't see how you got that from her last post. It appears to me she is saying that just like the Old Testament is scripture, God used men like the Apostle Paul to write the New Testament, and that it is also scripture. If I am wrong Floatingaxe, feel free to correct me, but that is how I took your post.

Greetings to you, Butero!

I may have missed that from FA's post!

Ok, there has been many councils which were called by church fathers, from as early as the 3rd and the 4rth century...What was their relevance? What was the confusion all about? What was the intentions of those councils?

Did they really discuss the all sufficiency of the written word, then?

God Bless

[Metropolitan]

So F.A..The N.T is not part of the scipture?

I don't see how you got that from her last post. It appears to me she is saying that just like the Old Testament is scripture, God used men like the Apostle Paul to write the New Testament, and that it is also scripture. If I am wrong Floatingaxe, feel free to correct me, but that is how I took your post.

Greetings to you, Butero!

I may have missed that from FA's post!

Ok, there has been many councils which were called by church fathers, from as early as the 3rd and the 4rth century...What was their relevance? What was the confusion all about? What was the intentions of those councils?

Did they really discuss the all sufficiency of the written word, then?

God Bless

There are numerous writings by the apostolic Fathers as well that go back to just after the Bible was finished. They discussed many differen't issues, but they were no more significant than any other group of Bible scholars getting together to interpret scripture or make decisions regarding the direction of the church. The things they said are not the words of God. The Word of God is complete. The only significance would be in the way their councils affected those who gave credence to their conclusions.

I have been part of denominational churches in the past. Every so often, they would meet together and discuss the direction they would go over the following year. They would discuss matters relating to doctrine. At the same time, one assembly will dissagree with the conclusions of another assembly and will revise their previous positions. This just goes to show that this is not God speaking through people, but men trying to discern things to the best of their ability.

When it comes to the 66 books of the cannon, everything written is settled. It cannot be changed. Whatever conclusions were made will remain stable. We cannot get together and go through the book of John for instance and vote to strike certain verses. I know there are some that have done that in some new translations, but the actual text is the text. Whatever God said originally stands as eternal truth.

So how do we view the foll verses ?

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter". (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith...Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:7,17)

Pauls teachings were primarily recorded as letters which we call as Epistles...What then is the spoken word of God?

[Floatingaxe]

Why fret about such things? The written Word is for us to know!

The pattern of behaviour is what is laid out for us to pick up. Follow and learn from your God-appointed leaders. That is the essence of that passage.

[Metropolitan]

So how do we view the foll verses ?

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter". (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith...Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:7,17)

Pauls teachings were primarily recorded as letters which we call as Epistles...What then is the spoken word of God?

Well, let's take a look at the scriptures in question.

2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

I don't accept anything but the King James Bible, so I am going to answer according to it's wording. In the KJV Bible, the word "spoken" does not appear. It simply says, "by word." Either way, there is no way Paul is making a blanket statement that they should give credence to every tradition and every word that has been spoken. There were many false teachers around with traditions, and he wasn't encouraging them to heed to their teachings. In Galatians, he comes against those who said circumcision was necessary to be saved. That was being taught by some, but was false. The only traditions and teachings we have to hold to are those in the 66 books of the cannon. To believe otherwise would mean we would have to give equal weight to all other traditions and teachings, including gnostics and Mormons.

Romans 13:7 "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their converstation.

This is merely teaching us to respect those in authority over us in the church that speak God's Word. That would mean the things taught in scripture, not conclusions they came to outside of scripture. Many people sit under false teachers in the Mormon church. I certainly don't believe the Bible is teaching us to follow them.

Romans 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

This is teaching obedience to those in authority over us once again.

Excellent stuff Butero!

Now we are talking...Can you explain your last statement?

[Metropolitan]

So how do we view the foll verses ?

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter". (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith...Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:7,17)

Pauls teachings were primarily recorded as letters which we call as Epistles...What then is the spoken word of God?

Well, let's take a look at the scriptures in question.

2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

I don't accept anything but the King James Bible, so I am going to answer according to it's wording. In the KJV Bible, the word "spoken" does not appear. It simply says, "by word." Either way, there is no way Paul is making a blanket statement that they should give credence to every tradition and every word that has been spoken. There were many false teachers around with traditions, and he wasn't encouraging them to heed to their teachings. In Galatians, he comes against those who said circumcision was necessary to be saved. That was being taught by some, but was false. The only traditions and teachings we have to hold to are those in the 66 books of the cannon. To believe otherwise would mean we would have to give equal weight to all other traditions and teachings, including gnostics and Mormons.

Romans 13:7 "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their converstation.

This is merely teaching us to respect those in authority over us in the church that speak God's Word. That would mean the things taught in scripture, not conclusions they came to outside of scripture. Many people sit under false teachers in the Mormon church. I certainly don't believe the Bible is teaching us to follow them.

Romans 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

This is teaching obedience to those in authority over us once again.

Excellent stuff Butero!

Now we are talking...Can you explain your last statement?

Sure. Let's say I am a member of the Pentecostal Church down the street. I am the Sunday School Teacher. I want to go straight through the New Testament but the leadership wants me to use a particular Sunday School book of lessons instead. I may not agree, but I obey those in authority. Those in positions of authority have the final say. That is a small matter, but it can be applied in other areas of dissagreement as well. Basically, we are not to be rebels.

So that explains the eucemincal councils and their traditions...Then there really is no harm, for the catholics submitiing to the Pope and likewise! Their traditions too are given by leaders who have authoirty over them!

Dont get me wrong...This will not turn to a catholic apologetic thread!