Pre-Trib evidence?

[Nero's Fiddle]

(I realize that this could have been posted under the "Defense of the pre-trib rapture" topic, but I am submitting this more as a request for opinions than an actual assertion of its validity in this context. Thank you.)

(Revelation 4:4, This passage is immediately following the conclusion of the letters to the churches, and a brief description of the Throne of God in heaven.)

"Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads."

(This passage is about a paragragh after the "After these things..." which has caused so much contention.)

I don't know about any of you, but this verse strikes me as absolutely explosive. The "elders" are wearing white raiments, and believers in Christ have washed their robes in the Blood of the Lamb, making them white.

However, this could simply be some reference and description of, say, angels, right? Wrong! These elders are wearing CROWNS. In the Bible, crowns are offered to the saints.

Furthermore, these rewards will be given at the Judgement. If these elders are indeed saints who have received their crowns, they have already been judged at this point.

This is merely an interesting idea I read for the first time yesterday afternoon. If anyone has an alternate explanation, or further Scritural evidence to validate this one, I would be much obliged.

All the love I have in Christ,

Nero's Fiddle

[Guest choobaca]

"Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads."

(This passage is about a paragragh after the "After these things..." which has caused so much contention.)

I don't know about any of you, but this verse strikes me as absolutely explosive. The "elders" are wearing white raiments, and believers in Christ have washed their robes in the Blood of the Lamb, making them white.

However, this could simply be some reference and description of, say, angels, right? Wrong! These elders are wearing CROWNS. In the Bible, crowns are offered to the saints.

Furthermore, these rewards will be given at the Judgement. If these elders are indeed saints who have received their crowns, they have already been judged at this point.

Hi Nero,

This passage of scripture has as many views as there are letters in the text. Most believe that twelve may be representative of the twelve tribes, and the remaining twelve represent the Apostles of Christ. Some think they are representative of the 24 courses of priests from the OT. Some think they are angels who also where white. But the word for crowns here is Stefanas which is a victor's crown which angels never wear. Diadem is the word for crown worn by Kings.

So it does seem that they are men, but they cannot at this time be the raptured church.....

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Note: the golden vials are the prayers of the saints. Prayers come from earth to heaven, therefore the saints are still on earth at this juncture.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed "us"(some manuscripts say them) to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made "us"(them) unto our God kings and priests: and "we"(they) shall reign on the earth.

The long and short of it, is nobody really knows yet. So we are left only to our speculation and cannot build dogma from who the elders are.

JMHO,

choobaca

[Nero's Fiddle]

Thank you very much, choobaca. As I said, I was looking for alternative explanations more so than actually attempting to present this one as fact.

I was searching through several interesting Biblical prophecy web-sites when I happened upon this interpretation of the passage. I had not heard it used in this context previously, and found it interesting.

We will one day know in no uncertain terms the precise meanings of each of these precious prophecies. Until then, we must continue to pray and to search them, trusting in God's will and plan, even if it is presently unclear to us. We may not have to wait long, either. :t:

"Come, Lord Jesus!" :il:

All the love I have in Christ,

Nero's Fiddle

[gop_jeff]

Great question fiddle! This is a strong piece of evidence for the pre-trib argument. If these are humans (which many seem to think they are), how did they get there? Paul seems to indicate that all of us Christians are going to be taken to heaven at once, and he makes no exception for any elders. How, then, did these people get there, unless the whole church had been raptured?

BTW - if the 24 elders are 12 from the OT, and 12 from the new, one would think that John was one of the 12 elders from the new. If that is true, then John would have been looking at himself bowing down... pretty trippy!

[Guest sword of truth]

This is merely an interesting idea I read for the first time yesterday afternoon. If anyone has an alternate explanation, or further Scritural evidence to validate this one, I would be much obliged.

Good question fiddle. I understand Rev 4 and 5 to be the coronation of Christ as King on the day of Pentecost. The 24 elders are undoubtably human. So how did they get to heaven before pentecost?

Ephesians 4:8-10

[Guest choobaca]

Hi Sword,

I agree about leading captivity captive, but I do not believe they were in a "bodily" resurrected form based on this text....

Acts 2:29-35

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

KJV

I think they were raised spiritually. This is what Jesus will bring with Him when HE DESCENDS.

We also have the "souls" of them under the altar in REV.

What do think?

In Him,

choobaca

[rollinTHUNDER]

Very interesting! I don't believe those who were resurrected with Christ ascended with Christ to heaven in their bodies. We can only speculate, but I believe these were raised so they could receive salvation as first fruits, so their bodies will be transformed with christians who have already past onin this church age and go in the rapture. Spiritually, they are already there. Christ purchased these as part of His elect. They may have been Priests and Prophets who were the only ones filled with the Holy Spirit before Christ came? I would guess that John the Baptist was among them as well. I believe they were raised in order to receive a better resurrection. Also, I don't believe those 24 thrones will be set up until after the rapture. Very interesting stuff, but we won't know until we get there.

I believe the order will go as follows:

[1] Christ, the first fruits of the dead (those under the law).

[2] Another type of first fruits of the living (under grace/rapture).

[3] Then all the others that are His when He comes.

All believers will go in the first resurrection, but not all at once. There is an order mentioned in scripture that must be followed. You can argue that everyone will be resurrected altogether, but you can't prove it with scripture. Enoch was raptured or caught up in his own time, so was Elijah in his time. Jesus, the head of the church, was resurrected and the rest of the body of Christ will go in their order. And the two witnesses will be resurrected and caught up together in the tribulation as well, just as those who will be beheaded. These are all part of the first resurrection, but will not go up together.

We can all (pre, mid, pre-wrath & post-tribbers) claim that we will all go in the first resurrection and reduce the arguing, but it can leave you with many more questions. I believe many like to assume that the first resurrection is a one shot deal, but that's biblically impossible since there are many parts to the body of Christ. The first resurrection began 2000 years ago when the head (Christ) was resurrected

1 Corintians 15:21-23 - "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. (22)For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. (23)But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

The second resurrection has an order as well. At the end of the tribulation, the beast and false prophet are thrown into the fire. Satan will be thrown into the bottomless pit and sealed up for a thousand years. After the millennium, at the great white throne judgment, all of the other unbelievers will be resurrected, judged and thrown into the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet are.

Christ was the first fruits of the dead (old testament saints), but some will be the first fruits of the living, or those who have been born again in the age of grace.

1 Corinthians 15:20 - "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

The next to go will be the first fruits of the living. I believe the wise virgins will go with Christ' disciples, not just the 12, but all the disciplined ones throughout the entire age of grace.

James 1:18 - "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."