All Israel will be saved!

[nanasimmons]

Michelle:

I do not as you falsely accuse me, say that the Jewish seeds according to the flesh are not Abraham seeds........What I said was that Jesus said that just because those Jesus haters in John 8, were seeds, it did not mean that they were Abraham's CHILDREN.....A servant does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever....... You fail to even acknowledge the difference between 'seed'v.'children' or 'servant'v. 'son'.........Galaitians 4:1-7

I have not and will not make broad statements about all Jews not being children of Abraham and God...as you falsely accuse me of doing..repeatedly........I am not so blind that I cannot see the clear distinction in scriptures....

Shiloh:

Well, you have a problem here. "Seed," as used to refer to offspring means "Children." You cannot be the seed of Abraham and not be a "child" of Abraham. The Bible nowhere, including Galatians makes this fake "distinction" you are trying to conjure up. "seed," "children" "son" all mean the same thing. For the purposes that God has in the Word with respect to the Jewish people's relationship to Abraham, those terms are simply three ways of making the same reference.

Romans 9:6-9

'Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

( Again:I believe that what Paul saying in Romans 11:1-7 is that he is living proof that God has Not cast away any of His true children which He foreknew....because he(Paul) was a seed of Abraham an Israelite and in the Body Of Christ, as were many other remnant Jews who were then, and continued through out history, and even as we speak all of 'The Israel of God' is coming together as one, into the Body Of Christ......Where there is neither Jew or Gentile but a New creature in Christ Jesus......)

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children;

But, In Isaac shall thy seed be called (Those who are Born again/born of the Holy Spirit/of promise/ born of God, not the will of man)(Gal.4:28)("Now to Abraham and his seed was the promises made..He saith not and to 'seeds',as of many; but as of ONE,And to thy 'SEED', Which is Christ."...Gal. 3:16)

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:(As Ismael was born of the flesh/will of man..not of promise/Holy Spirit, and Esau was born from Isaac but was not a 'chosen one' by God's will.)

But the children of promise are counted for the seed.(ALL those who God makes a new creation by the Holy Spirit, You must be born again..)

For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.(God had a set time when His Son would be miraciously born(as was Isaac when Sarah was over 90 yrs old), by His Spirit, speaking of the anti-type, Jesus who was born of a virgin..After He was risen He sent the Spirit of promise to seal all of those who belonged to Him...If you do not have His Spirit, you are not His..)Only those who are BORN-AGAIN.....BORN OF GOD/AS ISAAC WAS(Are the children of promise).........

And again:........"CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON"........." FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN.." Gal.4:21-31

Those who are not BORN-AGAIN/BORN OF GOD/AS ISAAC WAS(children of promise), are Ismael,(children born of the flesh not the children of promise..).......

Shiloh:

Furthermore, I don't see the point you are making with reference to Gal. 4;1-7 When Paul says in v. 7, "wherefore, thou art no longer a servant, but a son," he is refering to the servitude of sin. We are no longer a servant of sin, but a child of God. There is no way to compare that passage to some fake distinction between "seed" and "child."

Shiloh:

If I were a Jewish ubeliever (like I was once), your attitude would only reinforce why I would continue reject Christ. Your attitude drips with pride and arrogance, and will do more to keep not only Jews, but just about any other sinner out of the Kingdom as well. No one would receive such a message delivered with haughtiness and pride you demonstrate.

So because I do not agree with you, or approach you with my ears layed back and my tail tucked between my legs,You consider my attitude haughty and I must be filled with pride and arrogance ??.....You crack me up Shiloh....

I do not understand what your problem is....The message of the gospel is that The Passover Lamb has been slaughtered once for all and has been applied to the heavenly altar for all those who believe and have faith in Jesus Christ.......

Most people who reject Christ, do not believe they are even born sinners or they trust in the Law of Moses for their salvation......Or plain ole do not believe in God.....While others are too worried they might have to let go of their allusions of what they have imagined up in their own minds, of things they have earned and are entitled to....Their hopes and dreamed might get shattered(in their own minds) if they find out the truth, that God loves more people than just themselves, and He is no respector of persons.....

The gospel is NOT...If you are of a certain bloodline and recieve Christ as your savior, you will win an 'Extra Special Grand Prize' that certain other believers do not receive....as some might wish and believe.....as a result of their _ride and _rrogance....If some people need to feel superior to others in order to except their savior, then they should ask God to examine their heart and see if there is any wickedness in it.......

I am glad to see you received Christ as your savior, as did every other person in the Body of Christ, And I give all the glory to God, no man could have done that....God's word will grow in good soil/heart..and He alone, can change one's heart.......

Anyone looking to some man/woman to get saved, are placing their trust into the wrong hands.......

Shiloh:

We are also responsible for how we present the truth. If we present the truth like a bull in a china shop, and in a manner that actually hinders evangelism, don't think for one minute that you won't give an account.

We will also give an account if we are only preaching a 'feel good' message to itchy ears to lure people into the kingdom with false promises.......

Michelle:

I never said He was speaking to the Jews a whole....That was you false witnessing against me again.....He was talking to the Jews who were hating,denying who He was, and rejecting Him....and is talking about Jews/Gentiles who who hate,deny who He is and reject Him to their last dying breath, from then to the end of the "Today is the Day of Salvation', era............

Shiloh:

Yet your post never made that disctinction. It was not false witnessing. It was based strictly on what you said. And no, he was not talking about all Jews and Gentiles who deny him. He was speaking ONLY to His detractors among the Pharisees. You are trying to broaden the meaning. He was speaking to ONLY one group of people, and those were His sworn enemies, and not every person who ever did or would reject Him. Again, you are making a broad generalization that is unwarranted by the text.

Michelle:

I think it is a far stretch to say that John 8 only applies to the pharisees of His day.......

Shiloh:

No, it is not a far stretch at all. You are the one wanting broaden the passage to include anyone who rejects Christ, but Christ NEVER called all unbelievers or even everyone who rejected him "children of the devil."

QUOTE: from Jan., 24, 07 in the Land thread...

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry752631

Michelle:

These are the same passages that everyone reads as either unsaved or new believers..They are the same passages that I applied to myself as a new believer.....They apply to everyone no matter who they are...Verily,Verily...God said it...

Most people including myself didn't even see there was a differance between Jew and Gentile in the texts....Most of us still don't...They are life giving words or condemnation..It depends on believing or NOT.....

Shiloh:

Nana there is a difference between application and interpretation. From the standpoint of application, it is correct to say that the words of Jesus in John 8:31-59 apply spiritually to all people, Jew or Gentile. That is application. None of us is making a difference between Jews and Gentiles. To say that we are is to misunderstand our position.

[Guest shiloh357]

Romans 9:6-9

'Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

( Again:I believe that what Paul saying in Romans 11:1-7 is that he is living proof that God has Not cast away any of His true children which He foreknew....because he(Paul) was a seed of Abraham an Israelite and in the Body Of Christ, as were many other remnant Jews who were then, and continued through out history, and even as we speak all of 'The Israel of God' is coming together as one, into the Body Of Christ......Where there is neither Jew or Gentile but a New creature in Christ Jesus......)

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children;

But, In Isaac shall thy seed be called (Those who are Born again/born of the Holy Spirit/of promise/ born of God, not the will of man)(Gal.4:28)("Now to Abraham and his seed was the promises made..He saith not and to 'seeds',as of many; but as of ONE,And to thy 'SEED', Which is Christ."...Gal. 3:16)

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:(As Ismael was born of the flesh/will of man..not of promise/Holy Spirit, and Esau was born from Isaac but was not a 'chosen one' by God's will.)

But the children of promise are counted for the seed.(ALL those who God makes a new creation by the Holy Spirit, You must be born again..)

For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.(God had a set time when His Son would be miraciously born(as was Isaac when Sarah was over 90 yrs old), by His Spirit, speaking of the anti-type, Jesus who was born of a virgin..After He was risen He sent the Spirit of promise to seal all of those who belonged to Him...If you do not have His Spirit, you are not His..)Only those who are BORN-AGAIN.....BORN OF GOD/AS ISAAC WAS(Are the children of promise).........

And again:........"CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON"........." FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN.." Gal.4:21-31

Those who are not BORN-AGAIN/BORN OF GOD/AS ISAAC WAS(children of promise), are Ismael,(children born of the flesh not the children of promise..).......

The above a incorrect way to handle the Word of God. Taking a passage and inserting other passages that speak to a different issue and different context but forcing both passages support your agenda (which violates even the most basic rules interpretation) only serves to illustrate why Church needs hermenuetics.

Christian pride simply cannot accept the fact that God is not up in heaven holding the Jewish people in the same contempt and hatred as is expressed in threads like this. It is sad because people like you only keep the Jews out of heaven and reinforce their unbelief.

As to the gross mishandling of the above texts. Galatians was written to combat a specific false teaching, namely the notion that the Gentiles must convert to Judaism to be saved. In Galatians 3, Paul is explaining how that Gentiles by faith are already citizens of the Kingdom and it is that same faith that is required of both Jews and Gentiles. Paul makes it clear in Galatians 3, that Abraham was justified prior to circumcision, prior even to the birth of Isaac. This is also borne out in Romans 4. Paul also demonstrates in Galatians 3 that the Law cannot offer justification. This is because the Law was not designed to justify anyone and those who seek to be justified by it will only succeed in finding themselves under a curse since the level of righteous demanded by the law is unreachable by human effort, and that only by Christ are we set free from the curse (spiritual death) contained in the law.

Romans 9, on the other hand, is dealing with a completely different subject matter. What I told you earlier was that "son," "seed," "child," are not used differently with respect to the Jewish people's relationship to Abraham. I did not say anything about their relationship with God. I did not say that every Jewish person is automatically a child of God. You, however, have ignored my words and went on to refute an argument I did not raise.

Romans 9:6-9

'Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

In verse 6, Paul is talking about a remnant. Not everyone who is a member of the Israelite nation is a member of the remnant of Israel. Even Rabbinic texts such as Sanhedrin 10:1 state that all Israel has a share in the world to come, but the same text immediately lists Israelites who have no share in the world to come. Paul is not expressing anything different than what is found in Rabbinic writings already extant. Paul is not trying redifine "Israel" as being only born again people.

When you read the verses preceding verses, his heart is sorrowful and anguished over his fellow Israelites, brothers in the flesh. He considered them Israelites and his heart is broken over them. He does not say they are not Israel, nor does he claim there to be another "Israel." No such thought is expressed; rather it is read by people like you, into the text.

( Again:I believe that what Paul saying in Romans 11:1-7 is that he is living proof that God has Not cast away any of His true children which He foreknew....because he(Paul) was a seed of Abraham an Israelite and in the Body Of Christ, as were many other remnant Jews who were then, and continued through out history, and even as we speak all of 'The Israel of God' is coming together as one, into the Body Of Christ......Where there is neither Jew or Gentile but a New creature in Christ Jesus......)

But that is not what the text says. It does not say refer to "His true children which he foreknew." It says He did not cast off His people which He foreknew. Paul was not a Calvinist.

Furthermore, the "Israel of God" is simply Israel. It is used only one time and does not refer to anyone other than physicial nation Israel. It is not an attempt to establish a different Israel or "true Israel" as you continue to incorrectly phrase, but simply refers to "Israel."

"where this neither Jew or Gentile..." Yeah, so why are Christians so bent on claiming that they are the "true Jews" in Christ??? Oh, the irrationality of it all.

So because I do not agree with you, or approach you with my ears layed back and my tail tucked between my legs,You consider my attitude haughty and I must be filled with pride and arrogance ??.....

You only WISH it was just because you disagree with me. You would like pretend that my opposition is to your words. Frankly, you are one of the most hateful, bitter people on this board, especially where the Jews are concerned. I am a Jew, and I know what it is like to be on the other side. I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of people with your exact attitude. I had hell thrown in my face all of the time by Christians. I had people preach the truth to me. They would not each lunch with me, they would not allow me to sit on a regular seat on bus to and from school until I accepted Christ. I was nicknamed "Jewdas," I had tracts shoved in my hand and stuffed in my locker. I had people allegedly "witnesssing" to me all of the time. They had the same stuck-up, arrogant attitude that drips of every post you write. It is a wonder I ever got saved.

Where the Jewish people are concerned, you and people like you are a liability to the Kingdom of God, not an asset. You may tell the truth, but you tell it in such a manner that it could not received, because you don't think it depends at all on your behavior or method of delivery.

I do not understand what your problem is....

Okay, I will spell it out: Y-O-U. Your messasge is not the problem YOU are the problem. Do the Jewish people a favor, and keep your mouth shut when you are around them and let someone who actually knows how to witness to them do the job. We actually WANT them to see Jesus and to get saved, without having to suffer through your arrogant diatribes. We don't need anymore liability.

Most people who reject Christ, do not believe they are even born sinners or they trust in the Law of Moses for their salvation......Or plain ole do not believe in God.....While others are too worried they might have to let go of their allusions of what they have imagined up in their own minds, of things they have earned and are entitled to....Their hopes and dreamed might get shattered(in their own minds) if they find out the truth, that God loves more people than just themselves, and He is no respector of persons.....

And some of them are turned off to the gospel because of some people who succeed at nothing but reinforcing their unbelief. Sometimes Christians are Christ's worst enemies.

The gospel is NOT...If you are of a certain bloodline and recieve Christ as your savior, you will win an 'Extra Special Grand Prize' that certain other believers do not receive

There you go again, trying to assign motives and address arguments that were never raised. No one ever mentions anything about special treatment except you. Whenever you can't actually address the issue, you have to pretend that I said someone is getting a special prize, which no one has ever said. If you cannot even practice the most basic level of integrity, why do you bother?

This is why you are such a problem. You cannot debate without attributing false statements and then want to pretend that any opposition is based upon disagreeing with you.

[Smalcald]

When did the historical gentile separation began?

In 4th Century under Constantine.

Thus they could not be with their Jewish brothers and sisters even if they had wanted.

Not true.

But maybe I am reading history wrong here

No, not maybe... Definitely.

The separation occured long after the diaspora. The diaspora does not offer any excuse.

Jews who became believers were forced to adopt Gentile patterns. Beginnning with Constantine, anything of a Hebraic flavor was expunged from "Christianity" and Jews could no longer observe Passover. In fact, after Constantine on down the line. Laws were passed forbidding Christians to do buisness with Jews, or even allow Jews to own property.

An entire theology was erected to impose this separation on to the New Testament, such as the Church thinking that IT has become the "true Israel" and all of that nonsense.

Interesting thanks.

But I do think this history is important. How many actual Jewish believers and congregations existed, and where and when did they die out? Did Constantine have the power to control all Christian believers at that time?

I should do this research myself and I will, I just get busy and I know you have studied this Shiloh. If you could provide a brief timeline of events it would be really helpful to me. Did any Christian Jews continue in the faith, even in the face of this persecution? That would be fascinating to look at.

I do think the Diaspora had to have had an impact, before that happened we had Jewish congregations in Jerusalem, after we did not. Without the destruction and sacking of Jerusalem the Jews there could have continued as Jewish Christians regardless of what people in Rome did or did not do.

I am not looking for an excuse, history is what it is, and God has guided His true Church and true believers from the beginning, I am at peace with that, warts and all.