WayneB Posted January 23, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 23, 2004 God loves US, but what about THEM???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted January 23, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 23, 2004 The man who wrote the above article/testimony which I only quoted in part, was a minister who had a suicidal breakdown and ended up on a psych ward because he was so tormented by the concept of eternal hell for his unsaved loved ones and also the nagging quesion of whether he was good enough to pass through the narrow gate. What do you tell someone like this, just drop it?? Just shut up and believe? Whenever I try to have an open honest debate about some very pressing questions that I cannot seem to make a peace with, I pretty much run up against a brick wall, or I get branded heretic, or told I am dangerous and might infect baby Christians, or that I am being emotional---no feelings, just scripture, please. Why shouldn't someone get emotional about eternal torment, pray tell me? It is frightening if you dwell on it. I understand and appreciate your concern. What do tell a man like this that is burdened and tormented? I don't have an answer for you except to tell you that we can stand on God's Word and His promises. That is why John 15 is so beautiful and for me sums up the entire Good News message. Why do we as a individuals not want to follow and trust in Christ? This may sound bad, but I decided to put God first and trust Him completely. Those that choose to ignore His calling and refuse to obey His commands, well... it is beyond our ability to force them. Everyone has to make their own decison, family and all. Maybe, just maybe, this minister you mentioned forgot that basic doctrine. To Trust God and put Him first in ALL things. Psalm 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. Ecclesiastes 12:13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted January 23, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 23, 2004 . Those that choose to ignore His calling and refuse to obey His commands, well... it is beyond our ability to force them. Everyone has to make their own decison, family and all. Yes, and apparently it is beyond God's abililty to save them too. This free will to choose seems to be more powerful than God's will that none should perish (1 Tim 2:3, ) or than His will that all men be saved. And the devil seems to be winning the lion's share of souls. The ratio of saved to unsaved is quite disproportionate. Christ's victory on the cross was not a complete victory if He only saved those who were predestined anyway. I Cor 15:2s ....as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. We all agree that in Adam ALL die, and yet it seems that in Christ only SOME shall be made alive. Why is it that death and the curse of Adam appear to be far more successful than the life and blessing in Christ? John "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth will draw ALL men unto me."(except the unbelievers) I Tim 4: 10,11 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, especially those who believe. (and especially not those who don't believe) Acts 3:21 ....whom heaven must recieve until the times of the restoration of ALL things (except the folks suffering in hell eternally) Col 1:20 and by Him to reconcile ALL things to himself, by Him, whether on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of the cross.(except those in hell or destined for hell) Rev 5:13 And EVERY creature which is heaven and onthe earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea and all that are in them, I heard saying "Blessing and honor and glory.... (Except those in hell) Phil 2:10,11 that at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those under the earth, and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the father. (Except those unbelievers in hell) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted January 23, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 23, 2004 It seems like you and I think alike on this. The threads you started were before I joined. I am somewhat surprised at the lack of response you got. Do you think it is because most people don't get out and actively spread the Good News? Is it possible that they do but don't want to boast? Do you have any ideas how to get them to open up? I was very surprised at the lack of response as well, I even made a comment about that but I chose to edit it after I posted those links just now, but apparently you noticed that anyway. I don't know the reason for lack of response. As for my own little babysitting ministry, it is still alive and well and thriving. Not an easy ministry as I'm sure your grandmother can attest to, but rewarding and very engaging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted January 23, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 23, 2004 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted January 23, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 23, 2004 [i would like to suggest with much love that if you truly care for the lost as I believe you do, that you don't tell them they are in solid with the Father and do not need to do anything on their part. The Word is the authority on the matter, not you or I. This is a big misconception that people have about 'universalism'. That if you believe that God will save all of His creation that this implies that no one has any responsibility to serve and obey because He will save them in the end anyway. Most Christians seem to have a kneejerk reaction to 'universalism', as it has been labelled and deemed a cult by popular authorities and have never truly gave it any serious consideration or searched out the scriptures pertaining to it in a Berean manner. The general view of universal salvation is that God's plan of redemption and restoration does not stop when a person dies, and that it may not even stop at the end of this present age but will continue unto the end of the ages until every lost sheep is restored into the fold and confesses Jesus as Lord by the Spirit of God, to the glory of God. Only then will Jesus' work be completed and He will hand over the kingdom to God the Father and God will then become all in all. 'Universalists' believe that in this present age, and indeed this very hour, God is calling out a people for His name, the firstfruits of His greater plan for the restoration of all things. They have been given the ministry of reconciliation and are being prepared for and used as an instrument to carry out the greater work through out the ages to come. They also believe that judgement is used by God for corrective purposes rather than punishment, in other words people can choose the mercy or choose the wrath, but both have their goal to restore and turn people to God, to bring them to love Him and serve Him for His good pleasure. It is taught that the early Christians believed this way, and it wasn't until the 5th century or so when the church became aligned with the political antichrist powers-that-be that the Scriptures were translated and twisted in such a way as to create a doctrine of eternal torment in order to keep the common folk in subjugation to the church. This same situation can be seen in Jesus day on earth when the religious ruling authorities were so out of touch with the spirit of the message and ministry they were supposed to be carrying. Luther's reformation brought the Bible to the people but the doctrine of eternal torment was carried over into the protestant church and has remained a rigid doctrine ever since. There have always been a significant faction of people who carried the message of universal salvation and reconcilation and restoration of all things even unto the present day, but they are generally branded as heretics and dangerous cultish believers and this stigma has made it so that most Christians refuse to look seriously into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Calamity Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 OneAccord, do you believe these things from this site: http://www.carm.org/uni/unitarianism.htm The Universal Fatherhood of God The spiritual authority and leadership of His Son Jesus Christ The trustworthiness of the Bible as containing a revelation from God The certainty of just retribution for sin The final harmony of all souls with God Additional beliefs generally held by Unitarian Universalists are: Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works in any way. Jesus became the Son of God at His baptism. The Holy Spirit is not a person, does not have a will, etc. There now is and will be rewards and punishments according to one's actions but this does not consist of the traditional doctrine of hell. Human reason and experience should be the final authority in determining spiritual truth. I guess if we knew exactly what you believe, it would help in the discussion. It would, for me, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted January 23, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I will keep my response short and simple --- If your views are the truth, I am confident that Jesus, the Master Teacher, would have made it clear to us. His Words do not support your concepts and ideas. All we have to go on is what is revealed to us in His Word as the Spirit gives us understanding. What you are promoting is contrary to His Word. That is why Christians refuse to look at it seriously...it goes against the basic doctrines of the Church. You are speculating and wishing. Who are we to understand the ways of God and who are we to speculate beyond His revealed Word? We should focus on what He did tell us and follow his command in Matthew 28. John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." If none are to be condemned, who was Jesus refering to? Blessings, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted January 23, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 23, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Calamity Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Thanks, OA, that clarifies a lot. Do you believe that Jesus is God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts