A Little Question

[apothanein kerdos]

Now my question is this. If the God of the Bible exists then why has he given me this brain that through reason and thinking leads me to dismiss the Bible. That is why would God (in the organised religion sense) give me a brain which leads me to dismiss his existence.

I think this is often a misunderstanding among people. Whenever our brain leads us away from God based on supposed evidence, I would always advocate that you are actually taking an illogical approach to evaluating the evidence, that is, being irrational. Our mind, when used properly, will always point us in the direction of God.

The mind was created for us to know God and to know our world, that is, to be rational human beings. The problem is, via the Fall of man, our minds have become corrupt, so often what appears rational is not rational when held up to reality.

Thus, your question should change from, "Why has God given me a brain to think, which only caused me to doubt my faith," to "why have I not explored Christian intellectual sources to see if there is an answer to my questions."

One good website that should have quite a few answers is Be Thinking. It is not a fluff website - there will probably be articles that go over your head, unless you have a background in philosophy and theology. That is okay though, because it will allow you to see how the Christian mind is being used.

Ultimately, I would love to talk about your premise for dismissing God's existence. If anything, even at a simple intellectual overview, we can conclude in the Deistic idea of God. That, of course, is at a minimum. If pressed further, we can discover the orthodox version of God.

If you like the website, then I can give you a whole list of books that will deal with some of the struggles you are going through.

Ollikiller, I would appreciate it if you read my post and took some time to respond to it. I think it deals with what you're saying.

[ollkiller]

Now my question is this. If the God of the Bible exists then why has he given me this brain that through reason and thinking leads me to dismiss the Bible. That is why would God (in the organised religion sense) give me a brain which leads me to dismiss his existence.

I think this is often a misunderstanding among people. Whenever our brain leads us away from God based on supposed evidence, I would always advocate that you are actually taking an illogical approach to evaluating the evidence, that is, being irrational. Our mind, when used properly, will always point us in the direction of God.

The mind was created for us to know God and to know our world, that is, to be rational human beings. The problem is, via the Fall of man, our minds have become corrupt, so often what appears rational is not rational when held up to reality.

Thus, your question should change from, "Why has God given me a brain to think, which only caused me to doubt my faith," to "why have I not explored Christian intellectual sources to see if there is an answer to my questions."

One good website that should have quite a few answers is Be Thinking. It is not a fluff website - there will probably be articles that go over your head, unless you have a background in philosophy and theology. That is okay though, because it will allow you to see how the Christian mind is being used.

Ultimately, I would love to talk about your premise for dismissing God's existence. If anything, even at a simple intellectual overview, we can conclude in the Deistic idea of God. That, of course, is at a minimum. If pressed further, we can discover the orthodox version of God.

If you like the website, then I can give you a whole list of books that will deal with some of the struggles you are going through.

Ollikiller, I would appreciate it if you read my post and took some time to respond to it. I think it deals with what you're saying.

regards, the question you pose is a very good one. It is not one i will respond to straight away as i want to think about it. I'm having a look at that website at the moment, some interesting some not so interesting to me that is. If you do have any recommended books please let me know. I am always open to a good read and if it opens up my mind than all the better. Just to clarify, i am not dismissing god's existence i just have a few questions and to be honest yours is the first argument that has got me really thinking on the issue. Later Dudes.

[apothanein kerdos]

regards, the question you pose is a very good one. It is not one i will respond to straight away as i want to think about it. I'm having a look at that website at the moment, some interesting some not so interesting to me that is. If you do have any recommended books please let me know. I am always open to a good read and if it opens up my mind than all the better. Just to clarify, i am not dismissing god's existence i just have a few questions and to be honest yours is the first argument that has got me really thinking on the issue. Later Dudes.

Ah, books, I have a few to recommend.

To overcome your first obstacle - why would God give you a mind but then create an irrational faith - I would recommend Fit Bodies Fat Minds: Why Evangelicals Don't Think and What to Do About It by Os Guinness (as a side note, best thing about Guinness is he is related to the founder of Guinness...so you know he's good )

Love Your God With All Your Mind: The Role of Reason in the Life of the Soul by J.P. Moreland

A high school version of the above book is Smart Faith: Loving Your God with All Your Mind by Mark Matlock and J.P. Moreland.

Both of those display that Christians should think...but they don't really dive into the substance of the faith. In other words, if you read this, understand they are under the impression that the person already accepts the Christian faith. Regardless, I am recommending them to show you that reason plays a vital part of the Christian life, even if many Christians don't act like it.

Before I go on to explain why you are getting a variety of answers, here are a few books that deal with the substance of our faith:

http://www.amazon.com/Francis-Schaeffer-Tr...8689&sr=1-1A Francis A. Schaeffer Trilogy: Three Essential Books in One Volume by Francis Schaeffer.

The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel (if you can get past his writing style - he's a journalist and is interviewing experts on these issues

There are MANY other books, but I don't want to overload you. I'm partial to Schaeffer's works because he works from a philosophical view of God and Christianity. Being someone that is dedicating his life to philosophy, I obviously find his arguments quite convincing. Though Schaeffer is not a "professional" philosopher, I still find him quite influential. Other Christian philosophers, that I think are quite convincing, are Plantinga, Moreland, Craig, and others.

The reason you're getting a variety of answers is that many have taken a Reformed approach to apologetics, while others take a Fideistic approach. The Reformed approach teaches that you have to be part of the Christian faith before you see the intellectual aspects of the faith, or understand Christianity. To a certain extent, this is true. The only way to truly understand all of Christianity is to be part of it. However, it goes against what we know about the world - there are many non-Christians who understand Christianity. Though their understanding is not complete and might be off in certain areas, they still can grasp the simple concept of Christianity.

The Fideistic view of Christianity teaches that there is no rational element to faith and is essentially existential in its view. It teaches that our theology is essentially personal, based on our experience, and we have to take a "leap of faith" in believing in the absolute nature of everything. It looks at science, agrees with science, and still chooses to act against science. It ignores the history of our faith and teaches that we live this history everyday. Of all the apologetic approaches, to me, this is the most dangerous and counter-intuitive one.

The two that I ascribe to mostly (technically I'm an integrative Apologist) would be the Classical and Evidential. The first emphasizes a philosophical approach to Christianity, showing that, philosophically, it is the only consistent system. The second relies on evidence and says that Christianity is the most plausible religion/belief based on the physical evidence.

Both emphasize the importance of the mind in the life of the soul. The most convincing passage for this is 1 Peter 3:15, which tells us to use logic, reasoning, and evidence in the defense of our faith.

All of that to say - there are Christians that successfully use their mind and even teach that Christians who do not use their mind are actually working against scripture.

[ollkiller]

regards, the question you pose is a very good one. It is not one i will respond to straight away as i want to think about it. I'm having a look at that website at the moment, some interesting some not so interesting to me that is. If you do have any recommended books please let me know. I am always open to a good read and if it opens up my mind than all the better. Just to clarify, i am not dismissing god's existence i just have a few questions and to be honest yours is the first argument that has got me really thinking on the issue. Later Dudes.

Ah, books, I have a few to recommend.

To overcome your first obstacle - why would God give you a mind but then create an irrational faith - I would recommend Fit Bodies Fat Minds: Why Evangelicals Don't Think and What to Do About It by Os Guinness (as a side note, best thing about Guinness is he is related to the founder of Guinness...so you know he's good )

Love Your God With All Your Mind: The Role of Reason in the Life of the Soul by J.P. Moreland

A high school version of the above book is Smart Faith: Loving Your God with All Your Mind by Mark Matlock and J.P. Moreland.

Both of those display that Christians should think...but they don't really dive into the substance of the faith. In other words, if you read this, understand they are under the impression that the person already accepts the Christian faith. Regardless, I am recommending them to show you that reason plays a vital part of the Christian life, even if many Christians don't act like it.

Before I go on to explain why you are getting a variety of answers, here are a few books that deal with the substance of our faith:

http://www.amazon.com/Francis-Schaeffer-Tr...8689&sr=1-1A Francis A. Schaeffer Trilogy: Three Essential Books in One Volume by Francis Schaeffer.

The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel (if you can get past his writing style - he's a journalist and is interviewing experts on these issues

There are MANY other books, but I don't want to overload you. I'm partial to Schaeffer's works because he works from a philosophical view of God and Christianity. Being someone that is dedicating his life to philosophy, I obviously find his arguments quite convincing. Though Schaeffer is not a "professional" philosopher, I still find him quite influential. Other Christian philosophers, that I think are quite convincing, are Plantinga, Moreland, Craig, and others.

The reason you're getting a variety of answers is that many have taken a Reformed approach to apologetics, while others take a Fideistic approach. The Reformed approach teaches that you have to be part of the Christian faith before you see the intellectual aspects of the faith, or understand Christianity. To a certain extent, this is true. The only way to truly understand all of Christianity is to be part of it. However, it goes against what we know about the world - there are many non-Christians who understand Christianity. Though their understanding is not complete and might be off in certain areas, they still can grasp the simple concept of Christianity.

The Fideistic view of Christianity teaches that there is no rational element to faith and is essentially existential in its view. It teaches that our theology is essentially personal, based on our experience, and we have to take a "leap of faith" in believing in the absolute nature of everything. It looks at science, agrees with science, and still chooses to act against science. It ignores the history of our faith and teaches that we live this history everyday. Of all the apologetic approaches, to me, this is the most dangerous and counter-intuitive one.

The two that I ascribe to mostly (technically I'm an integrative Apologist) would be the Classical and Evidential. The first emphasizes a philosophical approach to Christianity, showing that, philosophically, it is the only consistent system. The second relies on evidence and says that Christianity is the most plausible religion/belief based on the physical evidence.

Both emphasize the importance of the mind in the life of the soul. The most convincing passage for this is 1 Peter 3:15, which tells us to use logic, reasoning, and evidence in the defense of our faith.

All of that to say - there are Christians that successfully use their mind and even teach that Christians who do not use their mind are actually working against scripture.

Cheers for the recommendations. I will have a look at them with an open mind and come back later with a few discussion topics. Later Dudes.

[jewelz123]

Right. I've taught about this for a bit and i want to see what other people's views are. I'll outline where i'm coming from as well. So

I was born a Catholic. I went to mass until i was 12 and then stopped going. I do not know if there is a God or not. If there is a God i believe if you are nice you go to heaven and if your bad you go to hell( i know very simple idea but i think it fits.) I have been raised by my parents to look at both sides of an topic and then take the side that i find reasonable.

Now my question is this. If the God of the Bible exists then why has he given me this brain that through reason and thinking leads me to dismiss the Bible. That is why would God (in the organised religion sense) give me a brain which leads me to dismiss his existence.

Your views are greatly appreciated from both believers and non-believers. Slan Leat(that's goodbye in Irish).

My pastor gave the best sermon on this topic - I wish I could remember it verbatim for you. Basically, God created us so He could experience himself as God. In the Garden His fullness was known to us and we walked together but when Adam fell, we could no longer walk with God and "know" Him in that way. Yet even in the Garden we see that we were created with the ability to choose Him or the serpent even when we "knew" Him. His love for us is so great and He will never reject us -yet he made us with the ability to reject Him. Can you imagine a creator not requiring his creation to love and obey Him? Would you want a child if you knew it would reject you no matter how deeply you loved it? Wouldn't that pain be almost to much to bear? But wouldn't having that child anyway be the greatest expression of your ability to love it?

It is in this choice that we make that God experiences Himself with his creation. God's love is pure and what every person on this earth requires just as much as air and water - yet he made Himself (which is pure love) resistable to us in order that we choose Him rather than choosing what we need(or what we get from Him). It's the closest thing that we as the creation can do for God to experience his own love thru us. And for those that reject/judge/resist/hate Him and His love - he experiences that as well thru them AND gives us a glimpse of how great his ability to love is.

I am sure I didn't do the sermon justice - it took him about 40 minutes to deliver the message but I hope at least one of his thoughts appeals to you enough to roll it around in your head for a while.

[jewelz123]

QUOTE(ollkiller @ May 31 2007, 10:44 AM)

Now my question is this. If the God of the Bible exists then why has he given me this brain that through reason and thinking leads me to dismiss the Bible. That is why would God (in the organised religion sense) give me a brain which leads me to dismiss his existence

.

If G-d exists, then what he says about you is true.

You prefer darkness to light.

Your heart is desperately wicked.

There is no good in you.

Your heart/mind actually denies His existence.

You are blind

You have already been judged guilty and sentenced.

Your destiny is defeat and destruction.

Why would G-d want to help you out of this predicament? What are you to Him?

Cheers for all the replies. Sorry for not getting back sooner. I shall give them all some thought. I will reply to this post though.

1. You prefer lightness to dark. No i don't.

2. Your heart is desperately wicked. No it is not and for you to judge my heart is way out of line.

3. There is no good in you. Again you don't know me. Way out of line.

4. Your heart/ mind actually denies his existence. I'm on a journey and am undecided.

5. You are blind. Again No.

6. You have already been judged guilty and sentenced. I'm not even going to respond to this.

Lastly why would god want to help me out of this prediciment. Well if i am one of God's creations made in his likeness then i would expect a little help in seeing the light. I don't know if your post was serious or not, if it is you have not helped me in any way. I'll try to respond to a few other posts later on. Later Dudes.

What you saw as accusations above were actually paraphrased bible verses. But you didn't recognize them. The poster was declaring what the bible says about all of us in our sinful nature. They don't have to know you personally to know what God says about you. It wasn't out of line, it wasn't a personal list of your iniquities. The questions asked, if you knew Him or His Word, you should be able to easily answer.

I went to church until I was 13 - Presbyterian church. Somehow, I too came away with the belief that being nice or good was enough to go to heaven - and now it's a ridiculous thought. I never learned who God was at all. It took until my late 30's to learn the truth and accept Jesus. But just so you know, there is none of us good without Jesus - not one, and being good means nothing (besides, it's subjective). It's a terrible shame that any of us could spend every Sunday in church and come away with no knowledge of the truth at all.

And to respond to your first question - I always say that God gave me a Bible AND a Brain - and with the two of those together I have what I need to get through life. A brain without a bible is just as dangerous as a bible and half a brain.

Use your brain and ask God to reveal his Word to you - it WILL blow your mind.