No-Knock Searches Get People Killed

[Scarletprayers]

bucks thats bull............I called the cops on my son, just because their family doesn't make their law breaking okay. I wouldn't pay for a lawyer and I didn't try to help him get out. He got exactly what he deserved for breaking the law. He served time, I did go to see him every Saturday for a long time.

And how is your relationship with your son now, Silent? Does he believe that you value adherence to "the law" above any loyalty to him?

My son and I have a great relationship, he's off drugs and has been for about 3 years now. We talk almost everyday and he's coming back into town next month and will be staying with me for 2 weeks. So don't even try to come off making it sound like some how I've shattered my son by not defending him when he was in the wrong and breaking the law. And because my son knows I wont lie or cheat or steal or defend him when he wrong, he also knows I wont don't anything wrong against him its called having principles. Taught him a valuable lesson about being a grown-up and responsibility. Maybe you should try it.

And as for your comment above about not having any respect for anybody that would turn in their own child, I couldn't care less what your level of respect of me is, I would assume its probably about the same as mine for yours in this matter...........................I helped my son become a grown-up which is what a parent is supposed to do, not teach him how to remain a spoiled self centered child.

[buckthesystem]

Quote from hr.jr: "This is my problem with your stance. From your earlier posts, you are an anarchist. Even though you say you are not, everything you say attests to the fact you are. The specific incident you have given me so much grief for has absolutely nothing to do with anything you wrote above. I was serving an arrest warrant and you attempted to justify the use of deadly force against me for doing my job. You plainly said that family has the duty to help their family members illegally resist arrest; even if this force is deadly force.

Buck, I too know of instances of police improperly handling situations. They are the exception, not the norm. What do you suggest? Do we eliminate hospitals and doctors because mistakes are made and people die? Do we eliminate ambulances because the Paramedics make mistakes and people die? Do we eliminate fire departments because sometimes the trucks wreck on the way to fires and kill people? Do we eliminate plumbers because sometimes they make mistakes and homes flood? Do we eliminate electricians because sometimes they make mistakes and houses burn? Do we eliminate Peanut Butter because Peter Pan let some tainted with e-coli get into the stores and made people sick? Do we eliminate pet food because some bad food has killed pets?

I am serious. That is not meant to be sarcastic. You demand perfection from the police, but I would suggest you tolerate imperfection in other things.

Have you ever made a mistake in you life? Should we eliminate you? I would say no, but by your impossible standards you would have to say yes.

There was one perfect person who walked the face of this Earth. His name was Jesus. I am not perfect. You are not perfect. I would suggest you deal with that fact. If you are perfect, you can demand perfection from others. Since you are not, you have no right to demand perfection from others."

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hr.jr you have totally ignored or misinterpreted everything I have previously written. I was going to going to ignore this debate because it has deteriorated into "people ignoring what other people say in favour of what they might have wanted them to say, convincing themself that the people did, indeed, say something that fits their interpretation, and then replying to that interpretation - not what the person actually said.

I really don't know how you manage to come up with "you are an anarchist. Even though you say you are not, everything you say attests to the fact you are". I have never said anything even remotely like that or anything that could be interpreted to mean that.

Quite contrary to the "anarchist point of view" I do believe that government should exist, but I believe also that any government that does exist should be about a third of the size that it is, should be truly accountable to the people who put it there and who are paying for it to exist, and it should be there to benefit the people - not be there to be self serving as it is now.

What I mean by "true accountability" is that government employees (now I've already said that I use "government employees" as a term to cover politicians, buraucrats and police officers) should be personally responsible for "mistakes" or deliberate acts that end in destruction of property, invasion of a person's privacy, taking of a person's liberty or causing death to a person or people - whether they be guilty of "breaking the law" or not. This means that they don't get to hide behind "the department", or "I was only doing my job".

As for the incident that I "giving you so much grief for" (really I don't think one little post was giving you much grief at all, surely you cannot be proud of the way this incident turned out) yes, I will admit I was pretty horrified by the fact that you seemed to boast about the fact that you had retaliated against an 86 year old woman and broken her ribs and now she is in jail for "assault with a deadly weapon". All I said about this was that, rightly or wrongly her instinct was to protect her grandson. The way she went about this was certainly "over the top" but then jailing an 86 year old for "assault with a deadly weapon" is surely OTT as well, This must be the laughing stock of the jail.

My view really is that "these sort of incidents" are not the exception any more, but have become the norm.

Another reality check, your bit about: "What do you suggest? Do we eliminate hospitals and doctors because mistakes are made and people die? Do we eliminate ambulances because the Paramedics make mistakes and people die? Do we eliminate fire departments because sometimes the trucks wreck on the way to fires and kill people? Do we eliminate plumbers because sometimes they make mistakes and homes flood? Do we eliminate electricians because sometimes they make mistakes and houses burn? Do we eliminate Peanut Butter because Peter Pan let some tainted with e-coli get into the stores and made people sick? Do we eliminate pet food because some bad food has killed pets?

I am serious. That is not meant to be sarcastic. You demand perfection from the police, but I would suggest you tolerate imperfection in other things."

Well this is utterly ludicrous, and you must see that. I never, at any time, used the word "elimination" or suggested that anyone should be done away with "because they make mistakes". I did say, however, that the rest of us are accountable for our actions in life. If I went out and killed people I would end up in jail and I would deserve to. Likewise if I went into someone's house with a gun and "caused havoc" and then merely said "oh, I've got the wrong house", I would expect to pay heavily for that mistake. Why is it that government employees just get to say "well we all make mistakes"? And then if I they are successfully sued, just dip into the trough of other peoples' money and pay out and forget about it?

I am not talking about perfection, I know that that is impossible. What I am talking about is genuine, personal accountability. Not "the department will pay out" or "the taxpayer will pay out", but if a government employee does something that results in havoc, or someone's death, they don't hide behind "I was doing my job", there is no way that murdering someone can be "your job", (now this is hypothetical, I am not talking about you personally) "you personally did it", so "you personally" should be accountable".

Get real. It is no one's "job" to murder someone, it is an act committed by someone personally. I am just getting sick of the attitude "it is my job and I am a policeman, look at the good job that policemen do that nobody else is willing to tackle". How ever hard the job of a policeman might be at times and how ever dangerous it may be for him to constantly attend accidents, and tackle baddies, that does not negate the fact that incidents like the one in the OP do occur, and they occur far too regularly and they can, in no way, be justified.