Guest Calamity Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 The Greek "baptidzo" literally means to immerse in water. Where in the world did you get that other definition? Steve :-) If baptize can only be used to mean "immerse in water", then what do these verses mean? Matt.3 [11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Luke.3 [16] John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Water baptism does not cleanse anyone from their sins. Only the Blood of the Lamb does that. Rev.1 [5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, [22] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Calamity Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 shilo... do you have kids? It's useless to argue with a teenager Once again when someone can not refute the evidence placed before them they resort to name calling and ridiculing, you people ( i use this term in general) do not show much of a christian attitude, if you feel so strongly about what you believe and that I am a " pharisees" then it would seem that you would be a little more compassionate toward people who dont agree with you instead of resorting to the tactics that you have used. I am in no way avoiding any topics but bringing to light that your true " christianity " is showing even though I am most likely hundreds of miles away. Matt 7:15-24 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: KJV You have read the words of Christ yet you wish to disagree with them, I have not shown you the Word of God according to me, but just what the Bible says and more specificaly what Jesus himself said. You use the wisdom of man to show you the way and ridicule those who do not agree with you. You have shown your fruit. I will no longer take part in this discussion, continue with your hermenuetics tiggr, sounds to me like the "baptism for salvation" belief has been refuted quite well. It also sounds like you are saying those who do not believe like you do, are false prophets and unsaved. Who is resorting to what here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted March 4, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted March 4, 2004 The Greek "baptidzo" literally means to immerse in water. Where in the world did you get that other definition? Steve :-) If baptize can only be used to mean "immerse in water", then what do these verses mean? Calamity... A lot of words have a figurative meaning, apart from their literal meaning. You know that. The Greek term "baptidzo" literally means to "immerse". This meaning is confirmed in Grek literature, when it is used to describe the sinking of ships. There are several instancees in the NT where it says that people either "went down into the water" and/or "came up out of the water". That means they were physically immersed in water. One of the gospels also says that John the Baptist chose a particular location to baptize because it had "plenty of water" (NIV) or "much water" (KJV). Baptizing requires a large amount of water. In Jewish culture, a ritual resembling baptism was common. For example, Gentile converts were immersed in a pool of water, which was said to be a "new birth". Would you care to answer the question in that post that you quoted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Calamity Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Steve, I know they baptised with water. I know the eunuch was baptised in water, I know that in Acts they asked for water for baptism. Tell me your explaination of this verse: Luke.3 [16] John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: What did he mean by 'baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire'? I'd like to hear what you think that means. Also, do you think that water baptism is for remission of sins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted March 4, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Tell me your explaination of this verse: ...he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: What did he mean by 'baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire'? I'd like to hear what you think that means. Also, do you think that water baptism is for remission of sins? Calamity, I think you're making up a controversy that doesn't exist. I did not say that the word baptism always means immersion in water. I simply said that's the literal definition. Some in this room are stubbornly debating that That passage from Luke 3 is about Pentecost. And the last question? Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salt and light Posted March 4, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 302 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/04/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted March 4, 2004 Hello brothers and sisters in Christ. This is my first time on this message board,and would like to say that a person does not have to be baptized in order to be saved. I don't think a true born again christian would refuse baptism though,and if he or she does, you would have to wonder if they really do believe. I believe that is what the last part of Mark 16 :16 means. It's all about believing on Jesus,and if a person does,they will be baptized. The thief on the cross wasn't baptized,and Jesus said to Zaccheus in Luke 19:9, "This day is salvation come to this house...." I don't believe that Zaccheus was baptized yet. Jesus even said on the cross before He died, "it is finished" in John 19:30, and since "finished" means finished, I would say that baptism is not required for salvation. If a person asked the Lord to save him or her and wanted to get baptized, and they died before they had a chance, I doubt very seriously if they would go to hell. salt and light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Calamity Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Tell me your explaination of this verse: ...he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: What did he mean by 'baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire'? I'd like to hear what you think that means. Also, do you think that water baptism is for remission of sins? Calamity, I think you're making up a controversy that doesn't exist. I did not say that the word baptism always means immersion in water. I simply said that's the literal definition. Some in this room are stubbornly debating that That passage from Luke 3 is about Pentecost. And the last question? Absolutely. I understood that you or someone else has been saying it always means immersion in water. Excuse me if I misunderstood. You believe that water baptism is for remission of sins? How can water cleanse us from sin? The blood of Jesus is what cleanses us from sin, not water. Rev.1 [5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, [22] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. That's the way God designed it. Even in the Old Testament, blood was shed, only it was blood of animals, and it had to be done over and over. But when Jesus shed His blood for us, it only had to be done once - for all. Heb. 10 [1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. [2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. [3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. [4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. [5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: [6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. [7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; [13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. [14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. [19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, Again, the Blood of the Lamb is what cleanses us from sin, and provides remission for sin. We are bought and paid for with His blood - not with water. Acts.20 [28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Rom.3 [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom.5 [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Eph.1 [7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Col.1 [14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: [20] And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Heb.9 [12] Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb.13 [12] Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 1John.1 [7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. Rev.1 [5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Water baptism, in no way, is for remission of sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted March 4, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted March 4, 2004 You believe that water baptism is for remission of sins? How can water cleanse us from sin? The blood of Jesus is what cleanses us from sin, not water. Again, you're inventing arguments that don't exist. I have never believed that water is the cleansing agent. How'd I do on that other question about holy ghost and fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Calamity Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Steve, you plainly said that water baptism is for remission of sins. Now, you are saying it isn't the cleansing agent. OK. But, the Bible still says the blood is for remission of sins. Heb.9 [22] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Romans 3 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Matt.26 [28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Acts.10 [43] To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. As for this: Mark 1 [4] John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. [5] And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. [6] And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; [7] And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. [8] I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. John prepared the way for Jesus. John baptized with water for the remission of sins. He plainly says "..there cometh one mighter than I after me..", and "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." When we repent, believe and accept Jesus as our Saviour, we receive the Holy Ghost at that moment - we are in Christ. Water baptism is an outward showing of that. It has no part on salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ptr29citizen Posted March 5, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 5, 2004 Water immersion is a physical act that is symbolic of the TRUE baptism mentioned in Romans 6 Easy enough to understand. You are glorifying the ritual over the blood of Christ, and are saying that the blood of Jesus is not good enough to save That is tantamount to heresy. Those verses talk about the physical act of water immersion. Baptism occurs before one is immersed in water. As for the verses you mentioned, I have addressed them, ad nauseum. Hmmm... two baptisms... interesting *cough* Ephesians 4 *cough.* How come no one will answer that question? OBVIOUSLY people in the Bible were immersed in water in Christ, making for one baptism. If you try and seperate that, aren't you going against Ephesians 4? No one has answered that yet... John prepared the way for Jesus. John baptized with water for the remission of sins. He plainly says "..there cometh one mighter than I after me..", and "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." When we repent, believe and accept Jesus as our Saviour, we receive the Holy Ghost at that moment - we are in Christ. Water baptism is an outward showing of that. It has no part on salvation. Umm... that also is instigating two baptisms. Where is your verse that water baptism in Christ is an outward showing of your inward baptism? Where is your verse about "accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior," and where is your verse saying that WE receive the spirit as soon as we believe. Also, calamity, water is just what baptism is in. That's just how God set it up, not mater how weird anyone views it, that's just how it is. But it's not the water that saves, its the resurrection of Christ, but your saved BY the resurrection of Christ THROUGH the water (1 Peter 3:20-21). Finally, "the Holy Spirit and fire" baptisms. Very interesting indeed, I had to study up on that when I first read it because it really threw me off. Conclusion? Christ will either be our salvation or our destruction. We are either immersed in Christ's spirit (in baptism, Galatians 3:27) or we are immersed in the fires of hell because we didn't believe and obey. These fires and second death can be seen from Revelation around the 20s. Hey calamity, by the way, what is the name of the building you worship at (i.e. what denomination do you follow)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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