Guest Calamity Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Baptist, can't you tell? Hubby works with Church of Christ folks, and goes through this all the time.... :wac: It's an endless circle...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ptr29citizen Posted March 5, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 5, 2004 Hmmm... interesting. Were you aware of the history of baptism, and the fact that the baptist denomination used to be in agreement with all other protestant groups, that baptism, meaning immersion in water in Christ, was necessary for salvation? Funny how God's changing eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Hmmm... two baptisms... interesting *cough* Ephesians 4 *cough.* How come no one will answer that question? OBVIOUSLY people in the Bible were immersed in water in Christ, making for one baptism. If you try and seperate that, aren't you going against Ephesians 4? No one has answered that yet... Nope... water immersion is not TRUE baptism. The ONE baptism mentioned in Eph. 4 is baptism into Christ. Since water immersion is not true baptism, it does not qualify as a second baptism. So there is still only one baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted March 5, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Baptist, can't you tell? Hubby works with Church of Christ folks, and goes through this all the time.... :wac: It's an endless circle...... Endless is an understatement. How many pages is this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted March 5, 2004 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 532 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/03/2001 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/25/1972 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Baptist, can't you tell? Â Hubby works with Church of Christ folks, and goes through this all the time.... :wac: It's an endless circle...... Endless is an understatement. How many pages is this thread? Wayne...26 and counting. I'm surprised no one's solved this yet! :oww: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted March 6, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 115 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 8,281 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/03/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/30/1955 Share Posted March 6, 2004 Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Hmmm. A place where 1Pet29citizen and I can acually be pretty close to agreement.....Well, I'll take care of THAT by the end of this post. Again, I didn't read all the pages (and pages and pages) of posts here, so if this has already been said, then just skip over it. Muslims can read the Bible, talk to Christians, visit Christian churches, but if they are baptized, their own families will try to kill them. When a Hindu in India is baptized into Christianity, the government immediately cuts off all social benefits (a significant thing in India, which operates--pretty poorly of course--as a Socialist economy). Obviously SOMETHING happens at baptism, or satan wouldn't get so angry. Acts 2 tells us "Repent and be baptized...for the remission of sin...." and no amount of finagling will get you out of the clear statement of that passage. Baptism is important to spiritual growth. However, in our wimpy, pale, American pretense of vital Christianity we are told Baptism is 'merely an outward sign of an inward work'. That is 'wimpspeak'! I insist Jesus was not a time waster. If it was without power, Jesus Christ would not tell us to waste our time at it! We tend to receive from God NO MORE THAN WE EXPECT TO RECEIVE. It's no wonder baptism has no effect on American Christians, they are told basically it's just 'something stupid we gotta' do....' That's another, more direct, and less euphemistic way of saying "outward sign of an inward work"! If you believe God is going to do nothing for you in baptism...you're probably right. If you believe God will transform you through baptism, you're probably right. Which would YOU rather experience??? Now then, just to muddy the waters a little, and spark some conversation---and probably get 1pet29citizen's blood pumping, let me move on to a related topic. I am glad Yod brought up the fact that Christian baptism is the 'entry ritual' into the New Covenant, just as circumcision was (or is) for Judaism. The New Testament also likens baptism to circumcision. Let me ask this: Who made the decision to have the baby circumcised? Did the baby itself make a 'profession of faith'? Did the baby have to 'with knowledge and intellectual clarity make a clear declaration of faith'? NO. The PARENTS decided this baby was going to be included under the covenant. In the New Testament we are told that we have 'a better covenant' than the Old Testament covenant. If our children are excluded from the covenant, HOW IS IT 'BETTER'??? Yes, I do believe in infant baptism. "Let the little children come unto Me, and do not forbid them....." With a blessing, Leonard, a sinner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 Now then, just to muddy the waters a little, and spark some conversation---and probably get 1pet29citizen's blood pumping, let me move on to a related topic. I am glad Yod brought up the fact that Christian baptism is the 'entry ritual' into the New Covenant, just as circumcision was (or is) for Judaism. The New Testament also likens baptism to circumcision. Circumcision is NOT the entry ritual into Judaism. It is the sign of a Covenant with God and the children of Israel. Even many adult converts to Judaism are not actually circumcized, per se. Most are simply pricked with a needle in the appropriate area by the Mohel so that there is a letting of blood. As far as the NT and circumcision is concerned, Romans chapter four tells us that Abraham was justified (saved) before he was circumcized. 25 years to be exact, passed after he was justified until God had him circumcized. If you want to connect circumcision to immersion in water as being something that is required for salvation, then you are missing the mark. Circumcision will not help you. Abraham was justified by faith apart from circumcision, and the believer is justified by faith apart from water immersion. That is the point Paul makes about it Romans four. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ptr29citizen Posted March 6, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 6, 2004 Nope... water immersion is not TRUE baptism. The ONE baptism mentioned in Eph. 4 is baptism into Christ. Since water immersion is not true baptism, it does not qualify as a second baptism. So there is still only one baptism. First of all, water immersion in Christ is considered "baptism" in the Bible, and so therefore, whether you consider it "true" or not it is baptism. Point and dot, period. So seperating immersion in water from immersion in Christ is making it two baptisms, and that's just the truth. Secondly, taking Christ out of baptism (meaning immersion in water), would leave just that, just immersion in water. What's the point? Why do it? Don't give your reason as being Romans 6, because Romans 6 tells us about what happens inside WHEN WE ARE baptized, not symbolizing what has already happened. If the baptism (immersion in water) you do out of obedience isn't a baptism for salvation in Christ, what's the difference between it and taking a bath in the morning? Leonard, for the most part I agree with you. At least you can see the importance behind baptism. Muslims, Hindus, they are my brothers facing persecution, and to hear that makes me sad. But I don't care, they shall be rewarded for putting on Christ. And of course, the only thing we're in disagreement about (on this thread at least) is infant baptism. I really don't wanna get TOO into infant baptism, but: In many places throughout the gospels, Jesus tells us we must "become like a child" or "have the innocence of a child." Why is this? Because kids don't know sin, they only know "good and bad" according to mom and dad. Babies cannot comprehend Christ, neither can they comprehend spiritual death. Just like Paul said, that the Law made us conscience of sin, and that conscienous led us to Christ. Is a baby conscience of sin? I don't think so... Also, you have to look at Acts 19, where John the Baptist's followers were "re"baptized in Christ. They were baptized for the wrong reasons the first time, not understanding the Holy Spirit and the factor of Christ in baptism, so they therefore needed true baptism. Babies don't understand just like those followers, therefore they need a understanding of how they are dead, the gospel, and salvation to be truly baptized. Without the heart and soul behind baptism, a baby is just getting wet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 First of all, water immersion in Christ is considered "baptism" in the Bible, and so therefore, whether you consider it "true" or not it is baptism. Point and dot, period. So seperating immersion in water from immersion in Christ is making it two baptisms, and that's just the truth. Secondly, taking Christ out of baptism (meaning immersion in water), would leave just that, just immersion in water. What's the point? Why do it? Don't give your reason as being Romans 6, because Romans 6 tells us about what happens inside WHEN WE ARE baptized, not symbolizing what has already happened. If the baptism (immersion in water) you do out of obedience isn't a baptism for salvation in Christ, what's the difference between it and taking a bath in the morning? The TRUE baptism is spiritual. The ritual of water immersion may be called baptism, but it is only symbolic of what is described in Romans 6. No one is taking Christ out of water immersion. You are trying hinge salvation upon water immersion and you wrong and legalistic for doing so. You're preaching a different gospel and Paul preached. You are doing exactly what the Pharisess did. You are misinterpreting Scripture and perverting the pure of gospel of salvation by grace through faith into a works based salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by grace through water immersion. The method used to exegete passages by those who believe you are saved by a ritual is nothing short of laughable. Frankly, I'm glad not many on this board take your works based salvation doctrine too seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tiggr Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 Lord I know that I am a sinner and that Jesus Christ died for my sins, I accept you as my personal savior ( even though I am your creation and you are Lord of all I have to accpet you, you need my acceptance instead of the other way around. Even though no where in your word does it say that i only have to accept you) Even though I will continue to live the same way that I have always lived, drinking ( only on holidays) smoking, chewing tobbaco cursing (when I get angry) watching movies full of violence and some nudity and basicaly being the same old me. I can pick and choose what I want to obey in the Bible and to top it all off I can never loose my salvation because I said the sinners prayer(which also is not in your word) and now I am saved for all eternity seems to be the belief of the majority of todays Christians That 's laughable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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