The Perfection of the Church

[Guest yod]

And your arrogant contempt has proven my point. You are nowhere near perfect yet, brother.

Keep working at it.

I'm resting in the Sabbath. It is finished.

Like I said....we'll all have a good laugh about this at the marriage supper. I'm having a pretty good chuckle already.

[Guest Steve101]

Another Old Testament accomplishment that prefigures perfection was the kingdom of Solomon at its height. After the temple itself was finished, the dedicated things and the sacred ark of the covenant were brought in and put in

place. Then the Lord accepted it by manifesting His glory. 11 * ' * Then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord;

"So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God." (2 Chronicles 5:13, 14)

In the presence of all the people on the day of dedication, God's presence was shown in an even greater manner, and all the people bowed with their faces to the ground and worshipped the Lord. And, not only was the glory of the kingdom known to Israel, but other nations heard of it and were affected.

"And when the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon, she came to prove Solomon with hard questions at Jerusalem, with a very great company, and camels that bare spices, and gold in abundance, and precious stones: and when she was come to Solomon, she communed with him of all that was in her heart.

"And Solomon told her all her questions: and there was nothing hid from Solomon which he told her not.

"And when the queen of Sheba had seen the wisdom of Solomon, and the house that he had built,

"And the meat of his table, and the sitting of his servants, and the attendance of his ministers, and their apparel; his cupbearers also, and their apparel; and his ascent by which he went up into the house of the Lord; there was no more spirit in her.

"And she said to the king, It was a true report which I heard in mine own land of thine acts, and of thy wisdom:

"Howbeit I believed not their words, until I came, and mine eyes had seen it: and, behold, the one half of the greatness of thy wisdom was not told me: for thou exceedest the fame that I heard.

"Happy are thy men, and happy are these thy servants, which stand continually before thee, and hear thy wisdom.

"Blessed be the Lord thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, to be king for the Lord thy God:

because thy God loved Israel, to establish them for ever, therefore made he thee king over them, to do judgment and justice." (2 Chronicles 9:1-8)

The type ends there. The kingdom suffered a decline after reaching its height. It only typified a glory which was to be fulfilled at a much later date. It was not the Church age, nor the time of perfection such as would be set forth in the New Testament era.

[Guest yod]

It was not the Church age, nor the time of perfection such as would be set forth in the New Testament era.

Do you think the "New Testament era" has been perfect? You aren't making much sense now.

This all sounds super-spiritual but reality just doesn't bear it out. The Bible speaks of the Great Apostacy before His return.....doesn't mention anything about the church ever reaching perfection (in the way you define it)

Obviously you think it's possible...but it has never been done [or even close] in 2,000 years of christendom. Pray tell what will change it? This thread?

There I go with the chuckling again....

[Guest brent]

"...those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me"

john 17:20-23

"...But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?"

romans 7:20-24

here paul talks about not being able to do good. he wants to... but sin keeps winning. he also mentions it isn't him but the sin within him (b/c he truely wants to do good). "OH WHAT A WRETCHED MAN I AM!" he says. But "who will set me free from the body of this death?" well... the answer is the very next verse:

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!..."

romans 7:25

"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit...."

romans 8:1-5

" No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him..."

1 john 3:6

Jesus Christ is capable of taking away the very sinful nature within you. what does baptism represent? It is not pride b/c you do not accomplish anything. christ has accomplished all! how is that prideful?

[Guest mcm42]

His Son

It doesn't matter what we say, what matters is what God Wrote in The Scriptures

Well put.

You really do need to give up your preconceived doctrine and study The Bible in your language and leave Greek to the Greeks.

uhhh... that would be a bad idea... considering that without the greek texts you wouldn't have an english, so if you leave the greek to the greeks the greeks would still have the Bible, and you would have nothing!

Oh and which one of the Bibles in my language is the Inspired Word? NIV, ESV, KJV, NASB, NAS, NKJV, The Message, NLT etc.?

[Guest mcm42]

Oh, His Son... I'm curious, have you ever read any verses about speaking a soft answer, or having your words seasoned with salt?

Just curious...

By the way, what are we talking about in this forum. The perfection of the Body? or the Perfection of the Individual? Or the perfection of all the Individuals as described by the word Church?

[Guest Steve101]

The Apostle Paul describes Church perfection and how it is to be attained, in just a few verses of Scripture:

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers:

"For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

"From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." (Ephesians 4:8, 11-16)

We see, then, that the Church is to be perfected by the ministry, who are its God-given gifts for that purpose. They are to continue working at the task until all reach the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of Christ, the Head. The Church will be as one perfect man or body, and will reach the same measure of stature-spiritual height-as portrayed by Christ in His fulness. The Church will not be affected by

[His son]

His Son

It doesn't matter what we say, what matters is what God Wrote in The Scriptures

Well put.

You really do need to give up your preconceived doctrine and study The Bible in your language and leave Greek to the Greeks.

uhhh... that would be a bad idea... considering that without the greek texts you wouldn't have an english, so if you leave the greek to the greeks the greeks would still have the Bible, and you would have nothing!

Oh and which one of the Bibles in my language is the Inspired Word? NIV, ESV, KJV, NASB, NAS, NKJV, The Message, NLT etc.?

Prov 3:5-8

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Pet 1:20

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Sam 14:14

14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.

Job 37:24

24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

John 17:22-23

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Ps 138:2

2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

KJV

I wasted too many years in that pursuit, and have learned so much more since I quit leaning to my own understanding not only of Greek, and Hebrew, but also trying to interpret according to what I understand.

Due to the fact that God inspired all Scripture, and is no respector of persons, and that He is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, and the value He assigns to His word, and the fact that He has never expressed any need for any man to help Him create anything, and that He created all languages I use the 1611 KJV which in my search for the original in English was the first I found that contained all the books, and verses.I would suggest that all who have a bible in there language go to the first complete Bible in their own Language. And ask The Holy Spirit to guide you in finding which one it is, and then to read with you, and lead you into God's truth.

[His son]

Oh, His Son... I'm curious, have you ever read any verses about speaking a soft answer, or having your words seasoned with salt?

Just curious...

By the way, what are we talking about in this forum. The perfection of the Body? or the Perfection of the Individual? Or the perfection of all the Individuals as described by the word Church?

Prov 3:5-8

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Pet 1:20

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Sam 14:14

14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.

Job 37:24

24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

John 17:22-23

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Ps 138:2

2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

KJV

I guess I don't know how to press my keys soft enough.

The only way the church body could be perfected is by the perfection of all it's members, so I would say both.

[Adstar]

"For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Well i will ask a question did the greek texts use comas?

If they didn't them when where the comas put in?

Lets take a coma out and look at the result.

"For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Now reading this does not imply that we to be made perfect. But only perfect for the work of the ministry.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days