mikeinsarasota Posted March 25, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2008 Cite the violation of National or International law which we broke, then. http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/index.html Articles 42 and 51 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeinsarasota Posted March 25, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2008 From the blog of a soldier, "I thought that it was pretty comical that I shot at a guy a long ways out but missed and later after taking his house and using it as a patrol base he offered me Chai and rice." I don't see what's so funny about indiscriminately shooting at people. On the contrary, it appears to me like the guy "discriminate" in his shooting. Do you think we train our soldiers to just go out and shoot at anything that moves, including women and children? Oh yeah......You wouldn't be trying to disparage a man - a soldier - who gave his life for our country, would you? That quote was from SPC. Jerry Ryan King's journal: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/22/us/4000k...?pagewanted=all Thanks for telling me where I got it from. As I don't think we had/have any business in Iraq, can you explain to me how servicemen/women who die in Iraq are giving their lives for our country. And what difference does it make if the author is dead or alive? The actions still occurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinM Posted March 25, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 144 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,512 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 625 Days Won: 10 Joined: 04/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1979 Share Posted March 25, 2008 From the blog of a soldier, "I thought that it was pretty comical that I shot at a guy a long ways out but missed and later after taking his house and using it as a patrol base he offered me Chai and rice." I don't see what's so funny about indiscriminately shooting at people. You really need to start posting source material with your quotes. I guess you weren't paying close enough attention, the men in his platoon had been fighting for 5 days straight. Do you think you could take that kind of pressure and still be able to tell the difference between a civilian and an unlawful combatant? Probably not, since even the locals can't tell the difference in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 25, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Mike, you aren't going to make a convincing argument with your pot-shots. If you have a case to make, please present it as a case, OK? Thank-you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinM Posted March 25, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 144 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,512 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 625 Days Won: 10 Joined: 04/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1979 Share Posted March 25, 2008 quote mikeinsarasota: "As I don't think we had/have any business in Iraq, can you explain to me how servicemen/women who die in Iraq are giving their lives for our country." I doubt you are genuinely concerned about our welfare. As such, I, as a servicemember don't care for people like you determining if my life is worth giving up in service. That's my choice, not yours. quote mikeinsarasota: "And what difference does it make if the author is dead or alive? The actions still occurred." This tells me everything I need to know about your concern for us and our lives. You use the dead to justify your anti-war ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeinsarasota Posted March 25, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2008 quote mikeinsarasota: "As I don't think we had/have any business in Iraq, can you explain to me how servicemen/women who die in Iraq are giving their lives for our country." I doubt you are genuinely concerned about our welfare. Whose welfare? As such, I, as a servicemember don't care for people like you determining if my life is worth giving up in service. That's my choice, not yours. I didn't tell you not to join the military. My lifelong best friend is in the Navy. quote mikeinsarasota: "And what difference does it make if the author is dead or alive? The actions still occurred." This tells me everything I need to know about your concern for us and our lives. You use the dead to justify your anti-war ideology. I let the war justify my anti-war ideology. That and Jesus. What impact did Saddam have on our lives before our invasion? Why was it so important that we send our men and women into harms way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 25, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.43 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Cite the violation of National or International law which we broke, then. http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/index.html Articles 42 and 51 Neither of which the United States violated, since no such provision in either article specifically forbid an individual country from enforcing U.N. Resolutions. Read U.N. Security Resolutions 678, 1441 and 1511 respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeinsarasota Posted March 25, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2008 Cite the violation of National or International law which we broke, then. http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/index.html Articles 42 and 51 Neither of which the United States violated, since no such provision in either article specifically forbid an individual country from enforcing U.N. Resolutions. Read U.N. Security Resolutions 678, 1441 and 1511 respectively. the whole point of the UN is to stop unilateral enforcement. Surely you're aware of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinM Posted March 25, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 144 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,512 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 625 Days Won: 10 Joined: 04/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1979 Share Posted March 25, 2008 quote mikeinsarasota: "As I don't think we had/have any business in Iraq, can you explain to me how servicemen/women who die in Iraq are giving their lives for our country." I doubt you are genuinely concerned about our welfare. Whose welfare? As such, I, as a servicemember don't care for people like you determining if my life is worth giving up in service. That's my choice, not yours. I didn't tell you not to join the military. My lifelong best friend is in the Navy. quote mikeinsarasota: "And what difference does it make if the author is dead or alive? The actions still occurred." This tells me everything I need to know about your concern for us and our lives. You use the dead to justify your anti-war ideology. I let the war justify my anti-war ideology. That and Jesus. What impact did Saddam have on our lives before our invasion? Why was it so important that we send our men and women into harms way? No, you didn't tell me not to enlist, but you are saying that if I were to die in Iraq, my death is in vain, because you disagree with the war. You can't make that decision. Do you really think Jesus is a pacifist? Do you think that "The Great White Throne Judgement" will be merciful? Do you think the blood up to the horses bridal in Megiddo is a sign of peace and love? No, it's death, judgement and destruction, it will illustrate the price of sin. No, you don't let the war justify your anti-war feelings, you use the words written by (now dead) soldiers exhausted from battle. You must not be too familiar with the concept of treaties and contracts. Saddam signed a treaty, so that we would not destroy him and his country, he agreed to fulfill everything included in that treaty. But, instead of becoming an ally of ours, he decided to use the treaty as a timeout, until he was strong enough to take us on again. He used chemical weapons on his own people, he corrupted the UN and he was playing a very dangerous shell game and lost. If anyone is responsible for the state of affairs that Iraq is in, it's him and his regime. Give credit where credit is due. If I buy a car and refuse to make payments on it, my financer has the rights to revoke the contract and leave me with no vehicle. I will be angry and it will seem unfair, but the law is on the financer's side. The law is on our side with this invasion, regardless of what your opinion is. Call it unlawful all you want, but your opinion doesn't make it so. Red is blue right? Maybe in your world. But, you have to get back to reality eventually, regardless of how unpleasant it may be for you. You quoted Articles 41 and 52, what about resolutions 1-17? You left that out didn't you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinM Posted March 25, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 144 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,512 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 625 Days Won: 10 Joined: 04/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1979 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Article 41 The Security Council may decide what measures not involving the use of armed force are to be employed to give effect to its decisions, and it may call upon the Members of the United Nations to apply such measures. These may include complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication, and the severance of diplomatic relations. Article 42 Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations. Article 51 Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security. Iraq wasn't a member of the UN. It violated it's treaty with the UN. Saddam Hussein corrupted France, Germany with the oil-for-food scandal. At that time the US determined that the UN was incompetent and corrupt and formed a coalition to act on the UN's behalf. (Much like the replacement of a President by the VP if the President's Cabinet determines the current president is incompetent or impotent in making lawful, executive decisions). Using the UN to justify your claim that the Iraq war is unlawful is rediculous. The UN had no credibility in this, to use them is an act of desperation and is laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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