Break the chains

[artsylady]

Look, I have studied science. I have been instructed in the cultural history of the people of the Bible. I've been exposed somewhat to the creation stories of the surounding cultures of the people of the Bible (ie. Sumerians, Babylonians) and know that there are many similarities but with key differences in the accounts. Adjusting my interpretation of Gen. 1 is the only means I have been able to reconcile the seemingly inconsistencies. Telling me that the scientific account is all a bunch of lies does not make sense compared to what I have learned about and from science. If it science is a failure with the age of the Earth, than how can I trust science for anything - including cleanliness and medicine and technology? I might as well believe pseudo -science and their claims that a pixel distortion in the SOHO (telescope that views the sun) images are flying suacers! Or that Planet X is going to destroy us.

Nobody is saying that science is wrong or evil. That's what you don't get. It's the theory of evolution that is wrong. It's done nothing except give self-described intellectuals an excuse not to believe in God.

I do believe your faith is strong. No problem there.

Let me ask you. If scientists abandoned evolution (and many are) and decided that their interpretations were wrong and that the earth really is much younger than thought, would you still choose to interpret Genesis 1 as some sort of poem?

Again, you came into this debate thinking creationists had stupid and silly arguments. Do you still feel this way? If yes, can you name an argument that is so blatantly wrong and silly? Seems we've got some good theories too and that there are 2 sides to every story. We've been able to hold our own. The same evidence you have, we have, except the interpretation is different. I don't know why you don't see this and continually fight for the evolutionists side. It seems you don't really want to try to understand the creationist view or theories or evidences. VR Spock, who came into the discussion arguing for evolution, CHANGED his mind! You will not look objectively at the information long enough to allow yourself to do so. You fight back with a vengeance. I find that sad.

You look at Genesis one like a poem, although the writer of the first books of the Bible didn't use poetic language anywhere else in his writings. I look at Genesis one as a literal account of creation, wherein the writer went way out of his way to make sure we all knew what he meant by day, night, evening, morning, etc.

If you have to leave, fine. God be with you. I'm sure your faith is very strong but don't compromise anything based on modern science. In the end, we may all find out that man was wrong, once again.

[BobTriez]

seeing the words as poetic illustrations rather than scientific terminologies does not cause me to believe God is a liar or any other claims people have made of me.

So are you saying that God doesn't always mean what He says ? That'd be a precarious position to take if so.

God said -

Exodus 20:11

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Is there more than one way to read this ? I just don't understand why Christians have to say God didn't mean what He said....that makes no sense to me at all. And this does in fact erode one's faith in the Bible. If you begin to doubt one part, where does it end ? And even if it doesn't effect you ( and that's an if ), would this not be a stumbling block to a less mature Christian. I mean, it's telling people "the Bible doesn't always mean what it says" isn't it ? That was what the devil told Eve in the Garden! The first thing Satan did was make Eve question God

Satan -

Gen 3:1 - And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Eve -

Gen 3:2-3 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

The next thing Satan did was call God a liar

Satan -

Gen 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And what did Eve do ?

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Satan said God didn't mean what He said, Eve believed the lie, and here we are. See how dangerous that is ? I'm not trying to make you mad or drive anyone away, but I feel it's my duty as a Christian to expose the lies of Satan.

I think we get into trouble when we start to question God and hide it by saying He made a "poetic illustration". If it was poetic, it would be apparent. God's not out to trick us....but I do know someone who is out to trick us. If Satan could morph into a snake and make Eve believe what he was saying, he's got some power. Satan also witnessed the creation of the Earth so he knows how it was put together....would you be willing to entertain the idea that if Satan could trick Eve into something that was so obviously false, he perhaps could tamper with physical evidence to make us think the Earth is old so that evolution seems more credible and discredit God and Creation ? I don't put anything past Satan. He's a deceiver, was then and is still at it today....something to consider.

In His service,

Bob

[VRSpock]

For what it is worth, my confidence in the Bible is as strong as it has ever been.  seeing the words as poetic illustrations rather than scientific terminologies does not cause me to believe God is a liar or any other claims people have made of me.

I wish somebody could understand that.

Have I said that you, specifically, are calling God a liar? How about calling it God's Truth instead of "poetic illustrations"? Let's call it for what is is, as your testimonial below demonstrates.

Goodness, I'd be dead if I didn't cling to the Bible.  There were a few times that certain passages of Scripture were all that stood between me and suicide.

Been there, done that. Unfortunately, I was an atheist at the time and so I had no idea what stopped me from killing myself or what kept death from taking me when I would deliberatly put myself in death's path. In hind sight, I can see that it was God intervening despite that I had completely no regard for His Word as anything but a fairy tale at the time.

I have studied science too, perhaps not at the college level, but science is a passion of mine: astronomy, cosmology and quatnum physics especially. Stephen Hawkins was one of my idols, among einstein and many others. There is nothing wrong with understanding the current mechanisms of the universe and how those mechanisms interact. Anything beyond that though, is sheer speculation backed by assumptions held up as truth.

We have seen in cosmology and quantum physics where the laws that we have so believed to be concrete are changed by variables we had no idea ever existed.

If the flow of time itself can be changed by nature, what miracles of God can science question?

The 7 literal days of creation? The literal virgin birth of Christ? Christ's literal resurection? If one is a poetic illustration, then what of the rest?

You see, it is not a horrible picture of you or anyone else that I have when the 7 days of creation are questioned. It is the gradual errosion of our willingness to accept God's miracles for what they are that bothers me and causes me to passionately defend the very first chapter of the very first book of Gods Word. The Holy Spirit convicts me and demands it of me to defend God's Word when weighed against man's so called knowledge...an imperfect knowledge full of assumptions and half truthes.

If your goal was to run me off and shut me up - congratulations.  You all win!

I am not here to run you off nor to shut you up. I value you as a person, a sister in Christ and I would truly hate to see you leave us.

Just as I am done in the science bulletin board trying to convince everyone that Christians are a bunch of peons.  My efforts are just as fruitless and vain there as here.

"One cannot serve two masters, for one will love the one and despise the other, or hate the one and love the other."

This is not said in condemnation of you, my sister. This also applies in my own life, though in a different area. This is the wisdom of God from His own Words. It is not my opinion to be forced upon others or my view to look down upon others from. No, because I myself am just as guilty as the next person. We must each decide whether or not to live God's Word, and then be satisfied with our own decision.

I am satisfied in knowing God's Truth for what it is and applying it into my life as much as I can, for God will provide for us all of our needs if we put our entire faith in Him.

Have you found satisfication? If not, then please stay with us that we may together help to find the satisfaction that you are missing.

Your brother in Christ

[Osiris]

That there is NO WAY that the 7 days could be 1,000 or 1,000,000,000 years long since that would make that verse a lie. Unless there is something about basic arithmetic I am missing.

Have you read the verse that says, "to God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is to a day"?

Anyways, if these verses are literal, how would you know what a day was before the earth was created?

Nobody is saying that science is wrong or evil. That's what you don't get. It's the theory of evolution that is wrong. It's done nothing except give self-described intellectuals an excuse not to believe in God.

There are christians who believe in evolution. Evolution does not prove religion wrong, evolution is just a way to explain how all the species came about guided or unguided. If God exists, the science of evolution is just a way to explain how God did it.

If scientists abandoned evolution (and many are) and decided that their interpretations were wrong and that the earth really is much younger than thought, would you still choose to interpret Genesis 1 as some sort of poem?

You could compare it to this, why would I believe in Santa Clause while I have evidence that he doesn't exist? Why would I believe in a theory while I have evidence that says it is wrong?

The answer to your question is, yes, if creationism was proven to be right, yes I would believe it , I would have no reason not to. But right now, there is more evidence for evolution, which gives me no reason for me not to believe it.

Just remember,

-Evolution does not try to disprove religion.

-Evolution does not explain how life Originated.

[BobTriez]

Anyways, if these verses are literal, how would you know what a day was before the earth was created?

There was no time prior to the creation of Earth, God created time as well. And don't you think that God, in His wisdom created in 6 - 24 hour days to establish order and a time frame for us to follow which, for some reason we do to this day ? Why do we have 7 day weeks ?

Blessings,

Bob

[Osiris]

Anyways, if these verses are literal, how would you know what a day was before the earth was created?

There was no time prior to the creation of Earth, God created time as well. And don't you think that God, in His wisdom created in 6 - 24 hour days to establish order and a time frame for us to follow which, for some reason we do to this day ? Why do we have 7 day weeks ?

Blessings,

Bob

Why are Hindus still Hindus to this very day? Would this mean that all the Gods in the Hindu religion are true going by the "since it has been like this all this time and people still do it, it must be true."

Of course you would have 7-day weeks in calendars when the early people who first made the calendar were in fact religious(christianity).

You wouldn't see a 7-day week in an Aztec Calendar though, and hypothetically if the Aztecs had gone on crusades trying to conquer other lands, we might be using this calendar rather than the 7-day week calendar that we use today.

[artsylady]

Have you read the verse that says, "to God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is to a day"?

Clearly a simile used by a writer well known for his figurative language. Besides, a thousand years isn't enough for the evolutionary process. They use millions or billions of years to explain a day.

There are christians who believe in evolution. Evolution does not prove religion wrong, evolution is just a way to explain how all the species came about guided or unguided. If God exists, the science of evolution is just a way to explain how God did it.

If evolution were true, sure. The evidence, all of it, is subject to interpretation.

QUOTE 

If scientists abandoned evolution (and many are) and decided that their interpretations were wrong and that the earth really is much younger than thought, would you still choose to interpret Genesis 1 as some sort of poem?

You could compare it to this, why would I believe in Santa Clause while I have evidence that he doesn't exist? Why would I believe in a theory while I have evidence that says it is wrong?

I wrote this to Nebula because she has decided to view Genesis one as a poem, most likely because if she doesn't, it doesn't fit with her view of what modern science tells us. Your comparison to Santa is apples to oranges.

The answer to your question is, yes, if creationism was proven to be right, yes I would believe it , I would have no reason not to. But right now, there is more evidence for evolution, which gives me no reason for me not to believe it.

Again, we all use the SAME evidence. We don't pretend that fossils, layers of sediment, rocks, etc, don't exist! We just date them differently and believe they tell a much different story than evolution tells. The question is, does creation or evolution best explain the evidence we have. In my opinion, creation is the clear winner.

[BobTriez]

Anyways, if these verses are literal, how would you know what a day was before the earth was created?

There was no time prior to the creation of Earth, God created time as well. And don't you think that God, in His wisdom created in 6 - 24 hour days to establish order and a time frame for us to follow which, for some reason we do to this day ? Why do we have 7 day weeks ?

Blessings,

Bob

Why are Hindus still Hindus to this very day? Would this mean that all the Gods in the Hindu religion are true going by the "since it has been like this all this time and people still do it, it must be true."

Of course you would have 7-day weeks in calendars when the early people who first made the calendar were in fact religious(christianity).

You wouldn't see a 7-day week in an Aztec Calendar though, and hypothetically if the Aztecs had gone on crusades trying to conquer other lands, we might be using this calendar rather than the 7-day week calendar that we use today.

I guess I need to ask since you are new - are you a Christian ? My response was directed from a Christian perspective in belief I was going to be discussing this with another Christian. I'm not saying I won't respond if you are not a Christian, but it will help me mold my answers if you do not believe a certain number of "givens" that I can expect a Christian to know and believe...and welcome BTW

Blessings,

Bob

[Osiris]

Have you read the verse that says, "to God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is to a day"?

Clearly a simile used by a writer well known for his figurative language. Besides, a thousand years isn't enough for the evolutionary process. They use millions or billions of years to explain a day.

You are aware that the word "thousand" from the bible does not really mean to interpret the number 1,000. Thousand was meant to mean really large numbers, which could also mean millions or billions.

http://www.cezwright.com/books/numbers.htm

There are christians who believe in evolution. Evolution does not prove religion wrong, evolution is just a way to explain how all the species came about guided or unguided. If God exists, the science of evolution is just a way to explain how God did it.

If evolution were true, sure. The evidence, all of it, is subject to interpretation.

But if creation were true, sure as well. The evidence, if there is any, is subject to interpretation as well.

If scientists abandoned evolution (and many are) and decided that their interpretations were wrong and that the earth really is much younger than thought, would you still choose to interpret Genesis 1 as some sort of poem?

You could compare it to this, why would I believe in Santa Clause while I have evidence that he doesn't exist? Why would I believe in a theory while I have evidence that says it is wrong?

I wrote this to Nebula because she has decided to view Genesis one as a poem, most likely because if she doesn't, it doesn't fit with her view of what modern science tells us. Your comparison to Santa is apples to oranges.

The answer to your question is, yes, if creationism was proven to be right, yes I would believe it , I would have no reason not to. But right now, there is more evidence for evolution, which gives me no reason for me not to believe it.

That sentence was in context with the next sentence.

Which was supposed to mean, why would I believe in evolution if there was evidence that proved it was wrong? It would be silly, just like me believing in Santa while there is evidence that proves that he doesn't exist. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

Again, we all use the SAME evidence.  We don't pretend that fossils, layers of sediment, rocks, etc, don't exist!  We just date them differently and believe they tell a much different story than evolution tells.  The question is, does creation or evolution best explain the evidence we have.

Yes, and not only fossils and rocks, but astronomy can also show how old the universe is by measuring the farthest source of light that we've found. And in recent discoveries, the universe said to be at least 13.7 billion years old. So, in my opinion, I would take the evidence of physics that shows that the universe is much older than 6000 years old.

In my opinion, creation is the clear winner.

I think that is good, but so far I haven't seen any evidence from you other than comments like , "If evolution were true, sure. The evidence, all of it, is subject to interpretation."

[Osiris]

I guess I need to ask since you are new - are you a Christian ?  My response was directed from a Christian perspective in belief I was going to be discussing this with another Christian.  I'm not saying I won't respond if you are not a Christian, but it will help me mold my answers if you do not believe a certain number of "givens" that I can expect a Christian to know and believe...and welcome BTW

Blessings,

Bob

No, I am not a christian.

And thank you for your warm welcomming. :hug: