artsylady Posted May 31, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2004 Wow. I feel like I have a fan club here! Only one member but hey, that makes you the president John!!! Thanks for your encouragement! It means a lot! :hug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted June 4, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2004 The first fish or fishes that grew stumps where the fins were. What advantage was it to them to flop around on the sand with stumps for a thousand years when they'd be much further ahead with fins swimming around in the water? No takers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted June 4, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/19/1981 Share Posted June 4, 2004 The first fish or fishes that grew stumps where the fins were. What advantage was it to them to flop around on the sand with stumps for a thousand years when they'd be much further ahead with fins swimming around in the water? No takers? If almost all the fish predators are in the sea, I guess being able to swim faster than walking on sand would not matter if they are in someone else's belly now would it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted June 4, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/19/1981 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Variation is, as far as we know, purely a chance process. Mutation and sexual recombination produce changes in our genetic code basically at random -..... Ok, so variation , which is thru mutation...is random.. Mutation has been observed to always be negative. So what we have here is negative randomness...which works AGAINST survival. Mutation has been observed to always be negative? By who, you? If a mutation helps an organism camouflage it better than if it didn't have the mutation, that would be a positive mutation, not a bad one. natural selection The second step in the evolutionary process I have called "selection", but that is a rather deceptive term, because usually selection requires a selector, a conscious act of selecting one object over another. This does not occur in nature, as far as we know. Basicly what was said here is that the ones that dont get eaten, killed by some other reason, and make it to the food first...have the better chance. There is still one more thing to look at, so we cant say that the animal will survive, it just has the better chance. (chance) So we have luck, (that its not eaten) , we have luck, (that its not randomly killed by anything else), and we have luck (that there was food to find and it found it first) Sounds pretty random to me. Nope, it is not luck. If you have Michael Jordan and a high school student paired up for a basketball match, who do you think has the best chance of winning? I'd say Michael Jordan, do you think it'd be by luck? When they say has a better chance to survive, they mean that it is more likely to survive than the ones that are not fit. Let's put it this way, let's say you have no self defense training, and you in a situation that you have to defend yourself (from burglers) or you will die. I have self defense training and I'm under the same situation. Since I have self defense training I am more likely to survive than you are; It may involve a little bit of luck like the amount of burglers attacking and the ones attacking me , but it is not all based on luck, the most important thing is that you are fit to endure a life threatening situation. But of course, you'll see what that means immediately. Whilst variation is random - it gives animals a random selection of features and adaptions, some of which makes them fitter, and some less fit, and some no more or less fit than their parents - selection (survival of the fittest) is not random..... Fitness, survival of the fittest. Basicly what we see in this is: The animals that survived the first two quotes (above) are pronounced the most fit, and will survive. (being that the weaker ones did not survive). So this is based on the randomness of the first two. SA.. you sure went a long way to try to make random into something different. If no one or nothing is selecting by some plan, then it is not selection. No matter what term you make up for it. Do you think elves make up the patterns on snow flakes? This whole idea is blown out of the water the first time a robin rears the young of a natural competitor. The first time a lioness nurses a hyena. The first time a ...etc.... you get the idea. In your imaginary survival scenario...those things dont happen. They do happen in real life. Why is it blown out of the water? Natural Selection doesn't say what animals should do or must do. In natural selection anything can happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mscoville Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 (edited) You're right hobling around on stumps on land would keep them very safe. Except that they couldn't breath. Wouldn't that be a problem. Are we saying that a fish learned, whoa, here comes a predator and I have these cool stumps on my body. Maybe I'll ....... You know what, this is worthless. You're saved right Osiris? Just don't hate the young earth believers who trust in God's word, it's obvious that young earth believers are just as smart as anyone else. We won't be angry at you, you don't be angry at us. We'll love each other like a family. I think we're wasting our time on these fruitless arguments. Let's have them in our homes and not on the boards. ~ M Edited June 4, 2004 by mscoville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted June 4, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/19/1981 Share Posted June 4, 2004 You're right hobling around on stumps on land would keep them very safe. Except that they couldn't breath. Wouldn't that be a problem. Are we saying that a fish learned, whoa, here comes a predator and I have these cool stumps on my body. Maybe I'll ....... If fish grew stumps like you said, they wouldn't grow them for no reason. I think that is where your misconception lies. If fish went out to land is not because they grew stumps. Fish grew stumps because fish went out to land. (see the difference?) Now if a predator comes along, this would be a good time for adaptation to take place. You know what, this is worthless. You're saved right Osiris? Nope, I never claimed such thing, nor I claim I know who is going to be saved or not. Just don't hate the young earth believers who trust in God's word, it's obvious that young earth believers are just as smart as anyone else. We won't be angry at you, you don't be angry at us. We'll love each other like a family. I think we're wasting our time on these fruitless arguments. Let's have them in our homes and not on the boards. Don't worry, I don't hate you.... :hug: I would say evolutionist theist trust God's word no more or less than young earth. The way I see it though is that most young earth have misconceptions of subjects such as evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmwhalen Posted June 4, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 997 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2004 If man "evolved" from monkeys/apes, "how come" we still have monkeys/apes? Is this a stupid question? In Christ, John Whalen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted June 4, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/19/1981 Share Posted June 4, 2004 (edited) If man "evolved" from monkeys/apes, "how come" we still have monkeys/apes? Is this a stupid question? In Christ, John Whalen Monkeys evolved from an ancestral primate just like man did. Man did not evolve from the monkeys/apes that we see today. This wouldn't mean that the primate that we evolved from shouldn't exist. The reason they don't exist was because there was competition between humans and the ancestral primate. And monkeys still exist because man and monkey do not compete against each other. When was the last time that you saw monkeys eating all the food at mcdonalds, or emptying all the supermarkets that there was no food left? Or when was the last time you went up a tree in africa and ate all the bananas so the monkeys wouldn't have anything to eat? Edited June 4, 2004 by Osiris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mscoville Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 The way I see it though is that most young earth have misconceptions of subjects such as evolution. You're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted June 4, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/19/1981 Share Posted June 4, 2004 The way I see it though is that most young earth have misconceptions of subjects such as evolution. You're wrong. I wish I was, but this quote just makes me believe my point is true. You're right hobling around on stumps on land would keep them very safe. Except that they couldn't breath. Wouldn't that be a problem. Are we saying that a fish learned, whoa, here comes a predator and I have these cool stumps on my body. Maybe I'll ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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