His son Posted June 10, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 764 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/01/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2004 I have a feeling that Osiris feels the same as I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mscoville Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Mutations that control embryological growth manifest themselves no matter what our lifestyle - these fish would have been born with stumps, they wouldn't have had to acquire them through practice - rather simply find a use for them when they were alive. This is where evolution becomes absurd. There is no reason to think that the lucky mutation you're thinking of would occur. not only are they born with stumps for no reason (randomly) but then they have to realize they have stumps, and, figure out a usefull purpose for them. I'm not sure if it was on this forum or not, but I have to ask again. Has Macro Evolution ever been observed? It's likely that it's going on out there somewhere in our world right now right? ~ M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mscoville Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Vanilla, I have a feeling that Osiris feels the same as I do. If I (we) accept Gods plan I'd (we) be doing it half heartedly. From my learning experiences in college classes to many questions arise from what I was taught to simple accept Gods word without ever seeing proof or hearing it directly from him instead of his many followers. This is why we read the Bible. Read it, see if it doesn't accurately describe the world you live in. See if Jesus' words don't ring true. There are plenty of proofs. But you have to choose to take a side, there will always be detractors. Read some prochristian literature. Read surprised by Joy by C.S. Lewis. Read the Bible. God is calling you, or you wouldn't be here talking with us. Of course your college experience would raise questions about Christianity. Christianity is the only religion that it's ok to mock and hate in America and the intellectual elite of the college world take every opportunity to defame and attack it while at the same time proclaiming their own open mindedness and tolerance. Ha. The elite of this world hate Christianity because it claims to hold truth. Now most people proclaim that there is no truth. That there is no right or wrong. The actions of the Nazi's were morally neutral and not actually wrong. Hating murder and rape is no different than hating an ice cream flavor, it's all just personal preference. Christianity says There is moral right and wrong. God Bless, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted June 10, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/19/1981 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Vanilla, I have a feeling that Osiris feels the same as I do. If I (we) accept Gods plan I'd (we) be doing it half heartedly. From my learning experiences in college classes to many questions arise from what I was taught to simple accept Gods word without ever seeing proof or hearing it directly from him instead of his many followers. This is why we read the Bible. Read it, see if it doesn't accurately describe the world you live in. See if Jesus' words don't ring true. Are you a semi-God that knows who have and have not read the bible? Jesus' words do ring true, when he talks about being good to your neighbor, but that had been said by many philosophers much much earlier than he did; so his teachings are nothing new. And the reason I have my doubts is because the logic that is behind in the bible is as follows but mostly everyone fails to see it... 1. Be a good person, and Doc will reward you. 2. Doc knows best. 3. 2 + 3 = 5 4. Eat right. 5. Moon is made of cheese. 6. Doc is always right. 7. A person that does not believe in Doc is bad. 8. Be bad, not only you'll be treated bad while you are alive, and you will be tortured after you die. 9. Tomorrow it may rain or it may not rain. 10. Doc dictated this list himself. To a follower of this list, everything would seem true because "6. Doc is always right" How do we know Doc is always right? because 3, 4 and 9 are true. But how do we know that this list wasn't made up by someone else? Because 10 says "Doc dictated this list himself", and that is good enough. What about the moon being made of cheese and the earth being 5000 years old Well, we've never been to the moon ourselves so we can't say,and scientists aren't always right, and we know Doc is always right, so it must be made of cheese, and since Doc is always right, the earth must be 5000 years old. But treating people that don't believe in this list bad while they are alive and torturing them after death seems awful But it is ok because this is what Doc wants and from 2 we know that Doc knows best. So the best thing to do is follow what Doc says because he knows best. There are plenty of proofs. But you have to choose to take a side, there will always be detractors. Read some prochristian literature. Read surprised by Joy by C.S. Lewis. Read the Bible. God is calling you, or you wouldn't be here talking with us. If God is calling us, why is he hiding? Why doesn't he talk to us like he talked to the people that assumedly were inspired to write the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bread_of_Life Posted June 10, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 872 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/17/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/24/1981 Author Share Posted June 10, 2004 This is where evolution becomes absurd. There is no reason to think that the lucky mutation you're thinking of would occur. Actually, in a large enough population, there is essentially every good reason for thinking so. In the domestic cat population of london, every single point mutation possible occurs in one generation. Single point mutations on their own don't do much - but given a lot of generations, and a lot of cats, that's a massive ammount of variation for selection to act upon. Add in copying and transposition mutations (which are rarer, but nonetheless occur and can have larger effects, and open up new avenues for evolution), and sexual recombination, and you've effectively got a recipe for a lot of variation and advention in any one population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mscoville Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 All your questions are the same ones I asked when I was an atheist. Up until 2 years ago. So none of what you say is new either. I think many religions are similar to Christianity superficially, yes. The devil is tricky that way. Jesus' words do ring true, when he talks about being good to your neighbor, Based on what? You believe you should be good to your neighbor, why? SA agrees with you, but he says there is no reason logically that we should be. Sorry to speak for you old buddy. Seems illogical to say we should believe that being good to people is true, based on nothing. Are you a semi-God that knows who have and have not read the bible? Umm, no. If God is calling us, why is he hiding? He's not. But he's not going to force anyone to believe. He's given proof. There is more revelation, but only in proportion to your faith. God Bless you, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted June 10, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 86 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 624 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2004 Mscoville: Based on what? You believe you should be good to your neighbor, why? SA agrees with you, but he says there is no reason logically that we should be. Sorry to speak for you old buddy. Seems illogical to say we should believe that being good to people is true, based on nothing. So by saying this you're claiming the only reason to be moral is for a fear of punishment or retribution from God? To me that seems incredibly foolish as religion & morality are seperate issues. I don't argue that they are sometimes intertwined but they don't necessarily have to be. A good example is slavery, the bible finds slavery acceptable, but almost all societies today abhor it. Because the Bible doesn't condemn slavery does that automatically make it okay? Most people would say "of course not". I'll have to pull out a few of my philosophy books for some better arguments here and maybe starting a new thread. The basic premise is this: Certain things are universally immoral, and others are universally moral and none of them require a fear of God to understand. I recently finished two books one by Lee Strobel and one by CS Lewis about the case for christianity. Yet I still after reading both do not see a clear case why Genesis had to be 6 days, the bible is the 100% infallible word of god, and why evolution couldn't have happened. I agree the bible is an amazing text that allows one to know God, but I still find it is lacking in many areas, particularly science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted June 10, 2004 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/19/1981 Share Posted June 10, 2004 All your questions are the same ones I asked when I was an atheist. Up until 2 years ago. So none of what you say is new either. I think many religions are similar to Christianity superficially, yes. The devil is tricky that way. All your answers are the same ones I answered with when I was a christian. Up until 4 years ago. The mind is tricky that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Strservant Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Vanilla, I have a feeling that Osiris feels the same as I do. If I (we) accept Gods plan I'd (we) be doing it half heartedly. From my learning experiences in college classes to many questions arise from what I was taught to simple accept Gods word without ever seeing proof or hearing it directly from him instead of his many followers. This is why we read the Bible. Read it, see if it doesn't accurately describe the world you live in. See if Jesus' words don't ring true. Are you a semi-God that knows who have and have not read the bible? Jesus' words do ring true, when he talks about being good to your neighbor, but that had been said by many philosophers much much earlier than he did; so his teachings are nothing new. And the reason I have my doubts is because the logic that is behind in the bible is as follows but mostly everyone fails to see it... 1. Be a good person, and Doc will reward you. 2. Doc knows best. 3. 2 + 3 = 5 4. Eat right. 5. Moon is made of cheese. 6. Doc is always right. 7. A person that does not believe in Doc is bad. 8. Be bad, not only you'll be treated bad while you are alive, and you will be tortured after you die. 9. Tomorrow it may rain or it may not rain. 10. Doc dictated this list himself. To a follower of this list, everything would seem true because "6. Doc is always right" How do we know Doc is always right? because 3, 4 and 9 are true. But how do we know that this list wasn't made up by someone else? Because 10 says "Doc dictated this list himself", and that is good enough. What about the moon being made of cheese and the earth being 5000 years old Well, we've never been to the moon ourselves so we can't say,and scientists aren't always right, and we know Doc is always right, so it must be made of cheese, and since Doc is always right, the earth must be 5000 years old. But treating people that don't believe in this list bad while they are alive and torturing them after death seems awful But it is ok because this is what Doc wants and from 2 we know that Doc knows best. So the best thing to do is follow what Doc says because he knows best. There are plenty of proofs. But you have to choose to take a side, there will always be detractors. Read some prochristian literature. Read surprised by Joy by C.S. Lewis. Read the Bible. God is calling you, or you wouldn't be here talking with us. If God is calling us, why is he hiding? Why doesn't he talk to us like he talked to the people that assumedly were inspired to write the bible. Osiris, Let's say that you won 10 billion dollars and everyone knew it. All of a sudden people who didn't want anything to do with you before start coming around treating you like you are the greatest thing to ever happen to them and giving reasons why they weren't around before you won the money. All these people tell you they are going to do this for you and do that for you and how they can make you what you want to be. Are you going to share your 10 billion dollars with them or those who were your friends when you didn't have all that money. About now you are probably asking yourself "what could this possibly have to do with the quote above?" My answer to that question is this. If we could prove everything beyond any measure of doubt that everything contained in the Bible was true and factual and everyone on the face of the earth could be shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that if they did not accept Christ they were going to die and go to hell and them prove to them without any doubt by showing them that horrible place and then also prove beyond any doubt by showing them Heaven was real then everyone would do it but not for the right reason. Well given the choice and having seen the two places I sure don't want to live in hell. God wants us to accept Him believing that all this is true, just like you want people to be your friend for who you are not because you have 10 billion dollars. The Bible says that the Word of God is but foolishness to those who would call themselves wise. It would be a "no brainer" for anyone if we could prove everything beyond any doubt. He wants us to accept Him at His Word (The Bible). Sorry so long. Respectfully, Strservant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mscoville Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Howdy Yall, So by saying this you're claiming the only reason to be moral is for a fear of punishment or retribution from God? That's certainly part of it. We all should fear God because of his ultimate holiness and our falleness. But the flip side of all this is that we do what God has commanded us to do because we are more like him when we do and he is the ultimate example of "Good". We also do it because we love him and want to please him. I'll have to pull out a few of my philosophy books for some better arguments here and maybe starting a new thread. The basic premise is this: Certain things are universally immoral, and others are universally moral and none of them require a fear of God to understand. You'll have to tell that to your other Atheist friends here. They disagree with you. All your answers are the same ones I answered with when I was a christian. Up until 4 years ago. The mind is tricky that way. Then I'm afraid you were never actually a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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