The End Times According to Isaiah Part 1

[givennewname]

A very good fortuneteller may have a 50% accuracy that his predictions may come to pass by really squeezing the events to fit what he predicted. I read in the newspaper that one financial analyst in New York predicted the stock market crash one year prior to it happening and so did a fortune teller in hong kong. what the newspaper also pointed out was also half of everything he said was also inaccurate and did not come to pass...therefore he failed to predict accurately in 50% of the cases. Bible prophecy should have a 100% accuracy unlike those two charlatans... or else just throw the Bible away and go listen to those other two New York analyst or the fortune teller.

[givennewname]

What are the textual controls which allow you to definitively claim that current events are the fulfillment or that the passage in question even has a double fulfillment?

Because in the entire history of mankind and esp in fulfillment of scripture at the first advent of Jesus- we see fulfilment of prophecy to the exact predicted events in all of what the prophets predicted, down to the crucifiction and no bones of our saviour being broken and birth to a virgin. Not partial fulfillment-he was not born to a partial virgin, or an allegorical virgin, but a literal 100% virgin. the Babylonian captivity does not explain what the prophets foresaw. Certainly in the case of Gaza, events predicted by Zephaniah had never been fully fulfilled-if it has please provide the documented evidence of a forsaken Gaza and desolated Ashkelon.. the last i looked, Askelon is still on the map and a thriving city.

I didn't ask about the virgin birth; I asked you what the textual controls were that allowed a present-day fulfillment. How about you answer the question in a coherent manner rather than giving a fluffy non-answer?

It is easy in that

1) All prophecies will be fulfilled to the last iota if the prophecy is given by a true prophet of God. Jesus himself says that the scriptures are eternal and will be fulfilled.

Source, please.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

2) If the prophecy has not been fulfilled to date, it will be at God's Appointed time.

Hab 2:3 For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it hasteth toward the end, and shall not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not delay

3) All prophecies be fulfilled literally and exactly. No partial fulfillment allowed. Take the example the destruction of Babylon for instance prophesied by Isaiah:

Isa 13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is taken shall fall by the sword.

Isa 13:16 Their infants also shall be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be rifled, and their wives ravished.

Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not regard silver, and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

Isa 13:18 And their bows shall dash the young men in pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldeans' pride, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

Isa 13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall shepherds make their flocks to lie down there.

Isa 13:21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and ostriches shall dwell there, and wild goats shall dance there.

Isa 13:22 And wolves shall cry in their castles, and jackals in the pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

the prophecies given here is very specific in nature:

1) Babylon will fall and be completely desolate and will fall very violently. It will be the Medes who overthrow them. God says Babylon shall be like Sodom and Gomorrah.. It will never rise again and be completely desolate in 13:20.

The overthrow of Babylon is only a partial fulfillment at best for this given prophecy. So many features of the overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus the Persian king does not fit the prophecy.

What features?

Cyrus is a Persian, not a Mede. Not until Darius the Mede did not come into power until later.

Cyrus's invasion of Babylon was through deception and non violent. Certainly not as violent as to leave the city uninhabited. In fact when Alexander the great came to Babylon 5 centuries later, he found a thriving city there. He died in Babylon., so we know at least up till the time of the Greeks, Babylon was not fallen to the stage envisioned by the prophet.

Saddam Hussein built many palaces on the ruins of Babylon. He did enough building to make the later part of this prophecy invalid. at least some one did stay there in those palaces. the prophecy says it shall never be inhabited... never means never.

Many of these features do not fit with prophecies given to Judah by Isaiah and cannot be explained by the Babylonian captivity alone. Jesus himself says not even one iots will be left unfilled. I just take God's word for what it says, the prophecy will be fulfilled in its time.

If there is no partial fulfillment allowed, how could Saddam Hussein invalidate the later part and leave the rest intact? That doesn't make sense. By the way, it is on the basis of this passage that we can conclude that the Babylon of Revelation 17 is not a literal Babylon.

Saddam Hussien did not invalidate the prophecy because we know the word of God cannot be frustrated by the efforts of men.

I beg to differ. That is exactly what you said. See above.

I am just saying that the Babylonian capture by Cyrus the Persian King is not the fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 13. Some parts of Isaiah is fulfilled by Cyrus but not Isaiah 13. Many people have suggested that the Babylon will be rebuilt to be destroyed again. I am not sure at this stage of development.

There are yet so many portions of scripture that is not yet fulfilled, Damacaus being totally destroyed being one of them, Gaza and Ashkelon is being fulfilled right before our eyes. My own felling in Gaza is that there will not be a ceasefire this time and Gaza will be totally destroyed by the Israeli troops this time round.

I expect prophecies in the Bible to be very exact in being fulfilled right to the last details. It is not the Writing of Men like Nostradamus where any old event can be fit into the prophecy due to vagaries by the man himself. The word of God is different. It holds the guarantee that God himself will validate all his prophecies that he has given or else we should throw away the book if even one prophecy did not come to pass as was prophesied.

Take for ex my fave passage from Isaiah. It was given to me by a friend and i used it to be read to my dad when he was dying. He accepted Jesus based on the promises given in Isaiah 35.

Isa 35:1 The wilderness and the dry land shall be glad; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.

Isa 35:2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing; the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon: they shall see the glory of Jehovah, the excellency of our God.

Isa 35:3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.

Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God; he will come and save you.

Isa 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

Isa 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb shall sing; for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

Isa 35:7 And the glowing sand shall become a pool, and the thirsty ground springs of water: in the habitation of jackals, where they lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

Isa 35:8 And a highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but is shall be for the redeemed: the wayfaring men, yea fools, shall not err therein.

Isa 35:9 No lion shall be there, nor shall any ravenous beast go up thereon; they shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

Isa 35:10 and the ransomed of Jehovah shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their heads: they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

We see the prophecy of Isaiah 35 concerning Zion when the Land is restored and when all the Jews come back to the land of Zion.

Parts of it has been fulfilled but not all. We see some Jews have returned to the land but all, certainly not the redeemed Jews who come to know Jesus.

The dessert has blossom but not all of the dessert. The Blind has been cured, some of them when Jesus came the first time but not all.. and there are still ravenous beast there to make the prophecy unfulfilled. Therefore this prophecy must still await fulfillment, at a time when conditions are near perfect, a place where there is no blind persons, no mutes the whole country is a blooming fertile land. It can only be fulfilled at the second coming of the Lord.

In other words, prophecy isn't truly fulfilled by God unless it meets your expectations exactly? That sounds so familiar.....something about a Messiah.......

not true.. it does not have to meet my standard... it meets god's standard of it will be fullfilled to the last iota. Jesus said it..

[givennewname]

A very good fortuneteller may have a 50% accuracy that his predictions may come to pass by really squeezing the events to fit what he predicted. I read in the newspaper that one financial analyst in New York predicted the stock market crash one year prior to it happening and so did a fortune teller in hong kong. what the newspaper also pointed out was also half of everything he said was also inaccurate and did not come to pass...therefore he failed to predict accurately in 50% of the cases. Bible prophecy should have a 100% accuracy unlike those two charlatans... or else just throw the Bible away and go listen to those other two New York analyst or the fortune teller.

The problem is that we are so far removed in time from the prophetic writings and their fulfillment that it takes more and more effort to twist scripture to fit current events and still call it prophecy. The prophets weren't predicting our present- they were forecasting their future and warning Israel against unilaterally breaking the covenant with God. Stop and think- does it make sense that a bunch of men who lived 2500-2800 years ago would have a word from God directly to us today? Their word from God was to their contemporaries. Any correct interpretation must be absolutely grounded in that fact and that means knowing the circumstances and the history against which the prophets were speaking. Any prophetic interpretation divorced from its original context is nothing more than magical/wish fulfillment thinking. That's the way children think.

not true. What you are saying is that what the prophets wrote is only good and applicable for their time. Jesus says his words will never pass away until it is come to pass, thereofre it is eternal. Good for anytime, past, present or future.

[Guest]

in favor of the simpler explanation that the book of Isaiah is an anthology/compilation of one man's life's work........How could Isaiah predict 'endtime events that came to pass 500 years after Isaiah died' and yet here we sit 2000 years further on with no end in sight?

Oh My!

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The End

How Could Isaiah Perdict............ Well......... You See..... He Didn't... God Did!

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 1:21

And Though Most Men Will Not See The End In Sight

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2 Peter 3:3-4

Until It Is Too Late

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2 Peter 3:5-6

To Repent

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:7

Believers Will Trust

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:8-9

The Truth Of God's Holy Word

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Isaiah 13:9-11

And Call Their Neighbor To See God's Grace

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isaiah 1:18

Before The KING OF KINGS Puts An End To The Evil On Earth And The Defilement Of Zion

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Isaiah 11:1-5

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Funny How Those Who Claim Their Authority From Dear Poor Peter

Will Often Fail To Read And Believe The Words

God Gave To Us Through Peter's Voice

Then Again

I'm Still Learning Too

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Your Brother Joe

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid;

and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain:

for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD,

as the waters cover the sea. Isaiah 11:6-9

[givennewname]

your expectations exactly? That sounds so familiar.....something about a Messiah.......

not true.. it does not have to meet my standard... it meets god's standard of it will be fullfilled to the last iota. Jesus said it..

Just keep in mind that your expectations of how God will fulfill His will and God's actual execution of His will are two different things. You don't get to take a line here, a word there, come up with something God never intended, demand that people agree with you and then cop an attitude when they don't. One of the hardest things for a Bible scholar to do is to get out of his own way and maintain objectivity.

Just keep in mind that your expectations of how God will fulfill His will and God's actual execution of His will are two different things.

I don't think i did imposed my interpretation since God himself inspired the words, nor did i write the words in. I have quoted the Bible as it written nor have I changed the words and I maintain that when God uses words in a prophecy, he will bring it to pass exactly like he said it. God's hands are not too short that he cannot achieve what he has said through his prophets. Men cannot frustrate his what he has written.

Isa 50:2 Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? Behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stink, because there is no water, and die for thirst.

Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you

Jesus say not even a dot or a comma of any scripture will be changed but God will do it exactly like he said.

For instance in the prophecy regarding the fall of Babylon,

Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not regard silver, and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

Medes means medes, not Persians. King Cyrus was a Persian. You might be saying i am dwelling on semantics here but it is like saying that since the Japanese and Chinese look alike and are Orientals, therefore they are the same and the terms could be used interchangably. God's prophecy does not work that way.

again words have exact meaning. When God says never, he means never.... no exceptions and no exclusions:

Isa 13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall shepherds make their flocks to lie down there

Again for emphasis, Isaiah says from generations to generation... it means never...

How can Isaiah write words that are only applicable only to the current events during his lifetime when Matthew Quotes exensively from Isaiah to show that Jesus is the fulfillement of the promise of a Messiah. Matthew lived at least a few millenia after time of Isaiah....

[bestill]

I drop into Worthy once in awhile just to see if there is anything of interest being said. I am usually disappointed. This conversation is too typical of what I find here and the reason why I visit less and less. I think you should be ashamed of yourselves. What is wrong with the church? We're supposed to be lilke Jesus or at least we're supposed to want to be like Jesus. Take a good long look at your attitude and words and tell me if Jesus is there. Why do you take such offense with each other and why do you engage in such meaningless retoric? Who in there right mind wants to read this stuff. Good night!

[givennewname]

your expectations exactly? That sounds so familiar.....something about a Messiah.......

not true.. it does not have to meet my standard... it meets god's standard of it will be fullfilled to the last iota. Jesus said it..

Just keep in mind that your expectations of how God will fulfill His will and God's actual execution of His will are two different things. You don't get to take a line here, a word there, come up with something God never intended, demand that people agree with you and then cop an attitude when they don't. One of the hardest things for a Bible scholar to do is to get out of his own way and maintain objectivity.

Just keep in mind that your expectations of how God will fulfill His will and God's actual execution of His will are two different things.

I don't think i did imposed my interpretation since God himself inspired the words, nor did i write the words in. I have quoted the Bible as it written nor have I changed the words and I maintain that when God uses words in a prophecy, he will bring it to pass exactly like he said it. God's hands are not too short that he cannot achieve what he has said through his prophets. Men cannot frustrate his what he has written.

Isa 50:2 Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? Behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stink, because there is no water, and die for thirst.

Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you

Jesus say not even a dot or a comma of any scripture will be changed but God will do it exactly like he said.

For instance in the prophecy regarding the fall of Babylon,

Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not regard silver, and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

Medes means medes, not Persians. King Cyrus was a Persian. You might be saying i am dwelling on semantics here but it is like saying that since the Japanese and Chinese look alike and are Orientals, therefore they are the same and the terms could be used interchangably. God's prophecy does not work that way.

again words have exact meaning. When God says never, he means never.... no exceptions and no exclusions:

Isa 13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall shepherds make their flocks to lie down there

Again for emphasis, Isaiah says from generations to generation... it means never...

How can Isaiah write words that are only applicable only to the current events during his lifetime when Matthew Quotes exensively from Isaiah to show that Jesus is the fulfillement of the promise of a Messiah. Matthew lived at least a few millenia after time of Isaiah....

How many thousands of years was that again?

Sorry centuries... 800 BC is when Isaiah had his ministry. See the power of words brother Rufus? Millenia and centuries are very different aint it?

[givennewname]

your expectations exactly? That sounds so familiar.....something about a Messiah.......

not true.. it does not have to meet my standard... it meets god's standard of it will be fullfilled to the last iota. Jesus said it..

Just keep in mind that your expectations of how God will fulfill His will and God's actual execution of His will are two different things. You don't get to take a line here, a word there, come up with something God never intended, demand that people agree with you and then cop an attitude when they don't. One of the hardest things for a Bible scholar to do is to get out of his own way and maintain objectivity.

Just keep in mind that your expectations of how God will fulfill His will and God's actual execution of His will are two different things.

I don't think i did imposed my interpretation since God himself inspired the words, nor did i write the words in. I have quoted the Bible as it written nor have I changed the words and I maintain that when God uses words in a prophecy, he will bring it to pass exactly like he said it. God's hands are not too short that he cannot achieve what he has said through his prophets. Men cannot frustrate his what he has written.

Isa 50:2 Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? Behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stink, because there is no water, and die for thirst.

Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you

Jesus say not even a dot or a comma of any scripture will be changed but God will do it exactly like he said.

For instance in the prophecy regarding the fall of Babylon,

Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not regard silver, and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

Medes means medes, not Persians. King Cyrus was a Persian. You might be saying i am dwelling on semantics here but it is like saying that since the Japanese and Chinese look alike and are Orientals, therefore they are the same and the terms could be used interchangably. God's prophecy does not work that way.

again words have exact meaning. When God says never, he means never.... no exceptions and no exclusions:

Isa 13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall shepherds make their flocks to lie down there

Again for emphasis, Isaiah says from generations to generation... it means never...

How can Isaiah write words that are only applicable only to the current events during his lifetime when Matthew Quotes exensively from Isaiah to show that Jesus is the fulfillement of the promise of a Messiah. Matthew lived at least a few millenia after time of Isaiah....

How many thousands of years was that again?

Sorry centuries... 800 BC is when Isaiah had his ministry. See the power of words brother Rufus? Millenia and centuries are very different aint it?

Helps to think about what you're saying before you say it, doesn't it? Otherwise your credibility suffers.

It doesn't matter whether i am credible or not dear brother. I just let the Bible say what it does and i use a very literal understanding and reading of it. Not my job to convince anyone. Its the Holy Spirit's job. Who am I? I'm just a man with spelling mistakes and occasional mistakes.

[givennewname]

It doesn't matter whether i am credible or not dear brother. I just let the Bible say what it does and i use a very literal understanding and reading of it. Not my job to convince anyone. Its the Holy Spirit's job. Who am I? I'm just a man with spelling mistakes and occasional mistakes.

....known in debating circles as the 'appeal to pity' or 'argumentum ad misericordium'.

It does matter how you are perceived by those outside the body of Christ. It starts with knowing what you're talking about;you can polish the presentation later. "Do your best" and "God understands" doesn't cut it, especially when one is perceived as a charismatic crackpot who cannot give a simple, coherent answer for the hope that is within him. That means knowing your facts, your dates and your history cold. If you are going to present from the prophetic writings, you need to know what they are and what they are not. The Holy Spirit's job is tough enough without God's representatives putting up obstacles.

Think about it - even someone as poorly educated as the apostle Peter had an intimate knowledge of the prophetic writings, as exhibited by his sermon at Pentecost.

Think i stop here Rufus. Look at your own arguments and please note that you have not even given a single historical or scriptural evidence or qoute for yr understanding apart from some statements regarding putting scriptural context. Even in that you have twisted the scriptural context.