socrates4jesus

This argument fails on the simple premise that the Proverb is in fact talking about wisdom: "I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions." (Prov. 8:12). This verse establishes that it is wisdom that is speaking in the succeeding verses. Interesting that you cite the verse as "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of His way..." and not "Jehovah produced me in the beginning of His way..." The Hebrew word actually means "to be brought forth, to be produced." Therefore there is no assumption, nor can it be read to indicate that wisdom preceded God. Nevertheless the narrative in this passage is written in a metaphorical sense, not that wisdom is really a person, that it is a creation of God. God is the source of wisdom and the producer of wisdom. Wisdom originates in God and it is brought forth from God. Your citation is directly from the New World Translation which tells me that you are likely a Jehovah's Witness. I know of no other discerning Christian who relies on the NWT as a serious translation. ~~~ The phrase "Firstborn" refers to Jesus' inheritance, not to His having been created. Are you at all familiar with the Biblical principal of the Firstborn and how the term is understood in its proper context? If so, please share. I think that Jesus is not Wisdom is evident from the fact that Wisdom is called a woman in Proverbs. That being said, i believe Jesus had perfect Wisdom. It's interesting that Wisdom is a virtue of God, like Justice and Love. By Jehovah God calling Wisdom the first of His works, He cannot mean that He created Wisdom in Himself. So, if Wisdom is not Jesus, and Wisdom is a virtue of God that always was and was never created, then how can she be a work (or creation) of God? Hmmm.

Thank you, Ovedya! Let me see how that fits. In John 6 Jesus said: If we substitute the words, "believe in" for "eat" we get this: But what about drinking His blood? What is the meaning of this metaphor?

Someone has probably already pointed this out, but the Bible is pretty clear that the first of God's works was Wisdom: This is one reason why i try to be a philosopher, which means, "lover of wisdom."

He was talking about the bread and wine they eat and drink at church. The bread and wine is Him! Please help me figure out the truth. I'm not sure what to believe any more. Yes, that is the way the Roman Catholics interprete this scripture. What is your view, Shilo?

I think i might if you will explain it to me, Nebula. Please let me know if you are around to answer a few questions for me.

.... When i trust Him, doesn't that mean that i trust what He says? or can i trust Him and still not believe what He says? Well! Jesus Is Clear On The Value Of Bread "And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread." "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:3-4 And On The Value Of His Holy Word "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." Mark 8:38 And We Know From The Word That It Is Jesus That Sanctifies Us "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming." 1 John 2:28 And Even In 400 Year Old Elizabethan English The Record Is Crystal Clear "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:11-13 It Is God Given Faith In Jesus That Saves "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" "Not of works, lest any man should boast." "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10 (Even The Ancients Heard) "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:4 And Wicked Unbelief "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Hebrews 3:12 That Kills "I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not." Jude 1:5 >>>>>()<<<<< Beloved Don't Trade Your Birthright "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3 For Twisted Doctrines "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Mark 7:7 And A Piece Of Crust "And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom." "And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright." "And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob." "Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright." Genesis 25:30-34 Love, Joe Yes, but you did not answer the question: When i trust Him, doesn't that mean that i trust what He says? or can i trust Him and still not believe what He says?

I happen to enjoy reading Plato's dialogs of Socrates. If you find something untrue in the words of his that i quoted, please let me know. Do you think a person should live an unexamined life?

Hi, OneLight! It appears i gave up on you too soon the other night! My apologies. I'm certainly grateful for your efforts. My hope was (and still is) that someone will look at John, chapter 6 with me and explain why Jesus' words should be taken figuratively, but not literally. I assumed that you and Dave were unwilling to Perhaps i was mistaken, and you are prepared to tell me the real meaning of Jesus' words in the 6th chapter of John's gospel. It this so?

Socrates was like the John the Baptist to the Greeks. He reasoned, quite eloquently, that there was only one God who was the source of all Wisdom. True, He did not know Jesus was the One True God, but neither did John the Baptist until he saw the Holy Spirit descend on Him like a dove. No, my mind is not made up, but are you willing to give me good reason to make up my mind by, "not going there"? I'm not finding any fault with you, i just hoped i'd be shown the truth about Christ's words in John's gospel. May God give you Wisdom in abundance, Dave!

My fear is that the silence of everyone is confirmation that the Catholics are correct. I really don't want to return to Catholicism, but as Socrates said

If anyone is interested in investigating Jesus' words in the 6th chapter of John's gospel, please let me know.

If you will, for just a moment, take Socrates' advice and consider the possibility that the truth might be different than you think, i'd be glad to follow you where Wisdom's still small voice guides you, Dave. If this sounds reasonable to you, please tell me what the quoted words of James, chapter 2 mean to you.

Actually, Mass, He does appear to say just that in John, chapter 6. That's why i'm asking if anyone will take a look at that passage with me and explain what it really means.

Thanks Dave. Catholics, however, point this out to me It's a stalemate. I think that the only way end it and bring peace to the conflict is to consider Jesus' words in John 6. Will you go there with me?