WolfBitn

Apparently being left handed is a warfare advantage because the shields and defense are designed against a right handed attack...

youre right... and most people are trained to defend a right hand attack, and how to attack a right hander. Thats why south paw boxers are considered formidable if they have any talent at all

.

Well, this thread really isn't about being left handed, or donkeys. But it is about those little extra details that are given to us in scripture. Things that we would usually read and gloss over.

I read this today...

Judges 12:13-15 (NASB)

Now Abdon the son of Hillel the Pirathonite judged Israel after him. He had forty sons and thirty grandsons who rode on seventy donkeys; and he judged Israel eight years. Then Abdon the son of Hillel the Pirathonite died and was buried at Pirathon in the land of Ephraim, in the hill country of the Amalekites.

...and thought, why did God put these details in His Word? Do you think that everything in the Word has some meaning? I know it is dangerous to read something significant into everything, we should not seek to find symbolism that isn't there for example.

Other examples of seemingly spurious detail is left-handedness...

Judges 3:15 (NASB)

But when the sons of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer for them, Ehud the son of Gera, the Benjamite, a left-handed man. And the sons of Israel sent tribute by him to Eglon the king of Moab.

... although I have since discovered that this is an advantage in warfare.

So, do you think it is all there for a reason? Or are there parts in the bible that exist merely as fillers?

Hiya Aussie

I think that scripture is true when it says ALL scripture is given by God and is profitable. I believe every word is significant, not neccessarily in translation, but at least in the original... Youre right too that we shouldnt try to read into it, this can be dangerous and its sometimes how cults are sprung up. On the other hand these details may not be meant to sinping in everyone, but maybe it is meant to inspire just one or 2 people throughout all of history ina single decision ini their lives.

If you really want to take Daniel literally, then you have to understand who the prophecies given to Daniel are for. We are told so specifically in Daniel 9:24:

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

These prophecies apply to Israel and the Jews, no one else. They do not apply to the church. The church was a mystery not known until Paul revealed it, which the Bible plainly states. That's why so many people have problems with escatology, because they automatically assume that all prophecy is meant for the church. It isn't. The church and Israel are dealt with seperately.

The "last trump" is not the 7th trumpet. They are not the same thing, and no where does the Bible say they are the same trumpet. You and Massorite seem to believe that the church going through the tribulation is somehow ok. It's God's judgement on an unbelieving world, and as such, the church is promised that they will not suffer God's wrath.

2 things

1) in case you didnt know it Daniel was written for the entire world just as the rest of scripture is, and the prophecies concern the entire world.

2) "Last" doesnt mean "next to last", it means "Last".

And let me ask why you tie Gods hands and say the only way He can spare us from His wrath is by rapturing us? This has never ever been the case... Look at Israel just before the Exodus... in egypt with His wrath falling all around them, yet not touching them, but on the flip side, pharoah increased their burden

I would recommend finding a single passage saying you are raptured pre trib, stating it outright, or simply believing the ones that do state outright we are raised up at the last day, at the last trump.

Wonderful point Wolf. If you were to do the research on the hidden manna in Rev. 2:17. You will find that it is not talking about some kind of spiritual bread from heaven. It is talking about the same kind of manna that was feed to the Israelites while thet were in the desert. The word "hidden" is speaking of that which is "hidden from our sight" or that which is "unnoticed". What will happen to us when we refuse the mark of the beast? We will not be able to buy any more food from men just to mention one essential. Now look up what happened to the old testament manna and you will find that the bible simply stops speaking of it as being in the ark of the covenant and does not say where it is. It just disappears from the ark.

I know it sounds nutty but I believe that this manna is 'hidden from our sight" right now but we as the people of God will again see and be fed once again the same life sustaining bread from heaven that the Israelites were fed when they too were not able to depend on the things of man while we are enduring/overcoming to the end.

Actually Massorite i dont think that sounds nutty at all. Why wouldnt God protect and feed His children in the same way? I love the studies from the old to the new. So many people try to seperate them as if one WAS Gods word and its passed, and now we have a NEW God's word and this robs them of so much more deeper knowledge. I submit its ALL Gods word and not one jot has ever passed from it.

We surely wont be able to depend on anything but death from mankind, thats an excellent point.

In that day we need faith.

As for the hidden manna, why should God reveal that which isnt needed yet? Hes not a showoff at all lol.. I agree with you its hidden until that day and i dont doubt one bit many will eat of it because we are His.

Agreed again Wolf. You have pointed out that the word "tribulation" means among other things "affliction" and this proves that the words tribulation and wrath are not one in the same words because the word wrath means "punishment" and we are not appointed to suffer the punishment of God. But we can at the will of God suffer great tribulation just as the early church did or the more then 250,000 of our brothers and sisters suffered and died in last year and are suffering as we speak.

Folks that believe that God wouldn't allow us to suffer things like having acid thrown into our faces or being tortured and having our heads cut off or being thrown in jail and beaten on a daily bases in the name of Jesus are decieving themselves because it is happening every single day around the world.

All one needs to do is go to the Voice of the Martyrs web site and see for them selves.

Amen Massorite, Not only do these abuses occur daily, if we remember it is also how our church was began... under great persecution first from the Jews and then the Romans.

Gods children have always been subject to Gods discipline, but never His wrath. Many times through history of the Hebrews we see where they apostacized and God disciplined them with persecution. Persecution has many times been the remedy for apostacy. It drives out the hypocrites and humbles the true child of God.

Not only this, but put another way, His children have never been the subject of GOD's wrath, but we have always been subject to the wrath of man... and even then a remnant is always miraculously protected and endures.

Actually i thought i had showed how these all worked together... but im willing to go a step and a scripture at a time... so to begin this, id just like to have rufas or whoever tell me what they see in this passage, especially the bolded parts

Rufus

Lets start all over between ourselves. I have nothing agianst you and im sure you feel the same

I am posting a portion of Daniel. Tell me how you read the bolded... what do YOU see in this?

We can toss it back and forth and take them 1 and 2 and 3 at a time so we dont confuse this any more than it has to be.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Agreed. These verses do speak of the resurrection and it is interesting that some who will awaken and rise out of the grave during the ressurection will be going to "shame and everlasting contempt". So much for "once saved always saved".

Amen Massorite.

Now lets put Daniel 12 with Matthew 24

21For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now--no, and never will be [again].

22And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive, but for the sake of the elect (God's chosen ones) those days will be shortened.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other.

So we see that in both cases this is the time of trouble like the world has never seen.. and we are gathered at the signal of the trumpet... which neccessarily HAS to be the LAST trumpet.

1 Cor 15

51Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed)

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).

and this is AT HIS COMING

22For just as [because of their [c]union of nature] in Adam all people die, so also [by virtue of their [d]union of nature] shall all in Christ be made alive.

23But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected] at His coming.

So so far this ties in Dan 12, Mt 24, and 1 Cor 15:19-21 and 50-52

4 passages

Perhaps this deserves on left v's right a seperate thread?

Mag - have you actually read his books on parenting? I think it is unpopular these days because discipline is unpopular. Children don't like it (although they thrive when they have clear boundaries that they can see) and parents find it is more work initially. I don't think it is about breaking the will of the child, but it is about firmly positioning the parents as the authority early on, and this is so important for the teenage years where children start to rebel.

Dr Dobson, and indeed any christian, has the personal right to fight for morals and standards to remain in our community. Not all agenda's are bad!!!! I have one, and that is to plant seeds, the great commission. To know God and make Him known. That is a good agenda.

This "lefty" happens to be strong believer in the proper discipline of children. I even discipline other people's kids when they won't.

What gives you the right to discipline someone elses kids?

The abdication of their parent's responsibility.

It's not like I pick them up and spank them or anything. But I will let them know in no uncertain terms their behavior is inappropriate.

I don't think that's illegal. yet.

you're WHINING at the kids then, thats not discipline, and as soon as they turn the corner they are laughing at you...

Actually i thought i had showed how these all worked together... but im willing to go a step and a scripture at a time... so to begin this, id just like to have rufas or whoever tell me what they see in this passage, especially the bolded parts

Rufus

Lets start all over between ourselves. I have nothing agianst you and im sure you feel the same

I am posting a portion of Daniel. Tell me how you read the bolded... what do YOU see in this?

We can toss it back and forth and take them 1 and 2 and 3 at a time so we dont confuse this any more than it has to be.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Rufus

Lets start all over between ourselves. I have nothing agianst you and im sure you feel the same

I am posting a portion of Daniel. Tell me how you read the bolded... what do YOU see in this?

We can toss it back and forth and take them 1 and 2 and 3 at a time so we dont confuse this any more than it has to be.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responses yet lol

Are those the only verses you have?

How many verses do you need? "AFTER the tribulation of those days" is as clear as it gets. But the pre-tribbers don't want to go there so they dance all around it with all kinds of other scriptures that are no where near as clear as that one. But there are several more verses that say the same things about how the tribulation will start before the return of Christ.

Problem is, it doesn't follow that all these verses are talking about the same event. The assumption is that just because these passages use the word tribulation, trouble. etc, they are speaking about one particular event to the exclusion of all other events. That's a non-sequiter.

Then youre only reading half the verse. Dan 12 for instance states that its at THIS TIME (armageddon, the worst time this world will ever see) that everyone written in the book is delivered.

It still doesn't follow that all of these verses are connected and point to a single event to the exclusion of all others. Show me the connection. Otherwise, you're engaging in eisogesis.

No no... IT follows, you arent, and its so simple. Thats what stinks about seminary. All too often all one comes away from them learning not to believe what the bible literally says. Far too many, have lost their innocense in many cases and no longer remember how to simply read and then believe like a child

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responses yet lol

Are those the only verses you have?

How many verses do you need? "AFTER the tribulation of those days" is as clear as it gets. But the pre-tribbers don't want to go there so they dance all around it with all kinds of other scriptures that are no where near as clear as that one. But there are several more verses that say the same things about how the tribulation will start before the return of Christ.

Then why not put them out there for people to see?

What can it hurt? If anything, it will strengthen your stance.

How many passages have been listed already? theres far too many to put even in 10 posts. The case needs no more strengthening because we already have FAR more than 2-3 witnesses in scripture itself listed, EXPLICITLY showing that we are raptured at the end. Therefore this and this alone is sound rapture doctrine because God Himself is plainly speaking here and testifying these things will happen as written

but heres some more just for you

Revelation 16:

[12] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

[13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

[14] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

[15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

[16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

[17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

The above passage occurs very near the end of the tribulation. The events occurring here take place between the 6th and 7th vial. At the 6th vial the Euphrates river is dried to make way for 200,000,000 oriental troops. Not just the Chinese are involves, these are the KINGS, plural, of the east.

In verse 13 Satan

Excellent passages Colleen. Kudos

Concerning the 1Cor 15:50-53 passage, concerning the last trump, I like putting Rev 11 side by side with this

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Rev 11 shows us the very last time a trumpet sounding in the entire book of revelation... the last trump, and we see this is the time the saints are rewarded

Revelation 11:15-19

[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

[17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This is the 7th trump as it is sounded. Here we see as 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 verified, that at the 7th trump the dead are judged and the saints are rewarded.

Now consider closely verse 15. We are told outright again, that this is the time that Christ takes the kingdoms of the world.

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responses yet lol

Are those the only verses you have?

How many verses do you need? "AFTER the tribulation of those days" is as clear as it gets. But the pre-tribbers don't want to go there so they dance all around it with all kinds of other scriptures that are no where near as clear as that one. But there are several more verses that say the same things about how the tribulation will start before the return of Christ.

Problem is, it doesn't follow that all these verses are talking about the same event. The assumption is that just because these passages use the word tribulation, trouble. etc, they are speaking about one particular event to the exclusion of all other events. That's a non-sequiter.

Then youre only reading half the verse. Dan 12 for instance states that its at THIS TIME (armageddon, the worst time this world will ever see) that everyone written in the book is delivered.

Nice ones. LOL take it you like my signature.

i LOVE your signature

Theres lots more, but i dont want to make the post too long

Yeah, some people don't read long posts. I know I rarely do.

The verses you gave were good.

Other than rapture references, do you have any verses that would indicate that the believer will be here until the very end?

I think Daniel 11:40-12:2 does that to a pinpoint... but i have several more tha all say the same thing. We go through the trib and we arent delivered until the end

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responces yet lol

Are those the only verses you have?

Not at all

2Thes.2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(Or i ask you concerning the Coming of Christ AND OUR GATHERING together to be with him... these are the 2 subjects at hand)

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

(Don't worry even if an angel tells you different or if you receive some letter supposedly from me saying the Day of Christ is at hand... meaning His coming and our gathering together to be with him)

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

( Don't let anyone fool you because Christ CANNOT come and neither can we be gathered to be with Him until these 2 things happen

1) the church must fall from the truth

2) the church must see Antichrist )

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

(Antichrist will sit in the temple of God claiming that he IS God)

[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

(Don't you remember when we went over these things?)

[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

(Now that I've told you again remember this time... NOW YOU KNOW what is witholding the coming of Christ and our gathering to be with Him)

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

(the mystery that brings us to a fullness of sin is already trying to rise up, and ONLY he who is charged to restrain its rise can restrain him from rising, until he who restrains is taken out of the way)

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

(then the Son of Perdition can rise or be revealed... this is the Antichrist who will be dealt with at the coming of Christ)

[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

(that's right i'm talking about Antichrist)

[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

(He will be full of deception and lead those who do not love the truth into even deeper unrighteousness... so that they CANNOT BE SAVED... THIS IS PROBABLY HINTING AT THE MARK OF THE BEAST ITSELF)

[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

(God shall let them go their own way... He will even reinforce their delusion since that's the way they want to go)

[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

(And since they wont believe God... truth... but take such pleasure in all the pains of unrighteousness that delusion will seal their damnation)

1 Cor. 15:

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality

We see here another timing passage concerning the rapture. We are told that the coming resurrection takes place "at the last trump". Now Revelation shows us the 7 trumpets which sound during the tribulation. If the resurrection takes place before the 7th trumpet is sounded then this passage is lying to us.

Joshuah put forth a challenge to "chose this day whom ye will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord." I put forth the same challenge to chose this day whom we will believe, man or God. As for me and my house, we will serve God.

Revelation 11:15-19

[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

[17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This is the 7th trump as it is sounded. Here we see as 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 verified, that at the 7th trump the dead are judged and the saints are rewarded.

Now consider closely verse 15. We are told outright again, that this is the time that Christ takes the kingdoms of the world.

Theres lots more, but i dont want to make the post too long

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responces yet lol

Daniel 11

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I believe that this ^^^ is the most telling passage of scripture, detailing the time of the rapture, pinpointing it in relation to the return of Christ at the time of the end... it looks like bombs may very well be in the air... but i reserve going that far, suffice it to say this pinpoints it very near the end of what we commonly call the great tribulation.

! cor 15 pinpoints it at this same time...

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Matthew 24 pinpoints it at the same time

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

But i believe ALL rapture timing passages are better understood by using Daniel 11:40-12:2 as a base or foundation for the rest

i love these passages... to me though the most revealing rapture passage is form Daniel 11:40-12:2

Can you show me how you came up with the belief that this word meet includes "escorting them back to where you left from"? From my studies, I have been able to find that the world only indicates the following:

The expression eis (unto) apantēsis (meeting) indicates that the Lord will be coming from one direction and we shall be coming from another to meet in the air.

Thanks,

Alan

Hi Alan, happy to

Acts 28:14-16 (King James Version)

14 Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we went toward Rome.

15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.

16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.

Here, knowing paul was on the way to rome, people came to meet him on his way to escort him there. In the same way we are gathered to meet the Lord in the air and we escort Him back to watch Him take His kingdom

God bless

I think the rapture, and really most-to-all of Eschatology, is the least important of all teachings... sorry to everyone who really gets off on it. I personally don't believe in the "Rapture", and as far as I understand, neither did the original Church. They were much more effectinve than the 21st Century Church. Maye we should learn a lesson.

1/3 of the Scriptures is Bible prophecy particularly as it relates to the end-times. If God invested that much of his Word on the subject, it would seem fairly important biblical subject matter. I don't think we should rip each other to shreds over the rapture issue, but eschatology is a very important part of the Word of God.

Shiloh,

In this we agree. Let me offer a thought. I may be wrong, but i dont believe this poster is saying there is no resurrection, just no pre trib rapture, and in this id have to say hes right if this is what he meant. Traditionally since the very early church it has been said that antichrist will wage war on the saints and that this is the final sign of His coming. A secret pre trib rapture was never even considered before the early 19th century.

Lets consider this too... we determine sound doctrine from unsound doctrine based on foundational scripture. There isnt a single passage in all of scripture declaring a rapture BEFORE the trib... they base it all on scripture out of context when it comes down to it, and inferances that can be take n in many ways... its also neccessary to not take scripture literally when one defends the pre trib rapture... we cant believe the words of Christ for instance, that the resurrection occurs at the last day

Yes we will be caught up to meet the Lord... but this word translated 'meet' has a particular connotation... meaning to leave a place to meet someone coming to you, and escorting them back to where you left from.

Oooooh fantastic question! I have been asking this question ALOT lately.

I think that passages should be interpreted literally unless there is indication in the text that it is figurative. But this is the hard bit!!! I think we should interpret the bible as the author intended us to interpret it.

Agreed. Obvious metaphor should be taken as obvious metaphor, and the rest should be taken literally

Andy youre right about not really having to worry about the giggle factor... i just feel that our position gives us more credability, and i do feel this is important. I dont think we hang our hat on anyhtinig but Christ and Him crucified, yet we are admonished to know how to answer people.

concerning scriptural evidence for yec folk though, I find the first 6 days of creation to be of great importance.

This is kinda long but i put this in another thread, explaining a possible alternate but correct reading of Genesis 1... sorry for the length

Genesis 1

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

hayah is the Hebrew word translated 'was' in this instance

The primary and secondary meanings are...

1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out

a) (Qal)

1) -----

a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass

b) to come about, come to pass

2) to come into being, become

a) to arise, appear, come

b) to become

1) to become

2) to become like

3) to be instituted, be established

And the word translated 'void' is

bohuw, meaning void or empty

and 'without form' comes from the Hebrew tohuw, meaning ...

1) formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness

a) formlessness (of primeval earth)

1) nothingness, empty space

b) that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)

c) wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)

d) place of chaos

e) vanity

So what we have in genesis 1 is a declaration that God created the heavens and the earth and the EARTH BECAME a desolate wilderness... Is this an accurate estimation of what science finds in geology?

Yes indeed many tmies we see that since the earths existance, we have seen MANY cycles of life on this earth. Life and destruction, more life and more destruiction as we move from the Proterozoic to the precambrian and cambrian, to jurassic to now.

We find that life sprang form nowhere basicly in the cambrian IN HUGE numbers, and then later died out... we find another cycle going into the jurasic with the dinosaur, that was apparently killed off because of a meteor or astroid impact... and then we work our way eventually to man.

Now do i neccessarily agree with the dating systems? they are entirely inconsistant but lets entertain the possibility that it extends to the billions of years old. This cycle of life is still shown in genesis 1 and hinted at in Ecclesiastes where we see...

Ecclesiastes 1:4

One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

Now here in the hebrew the word for generation ALSO means ages or periods... one age comes, and it passes and another age comes ...

and the earth abides forever is properly translated...

1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

a) ancient time, long time (of past)

...and not neccessarily 'forever'

So thus far we see nothing in this creation story that goes against science at all.. but this is just the beginning of a LONG line of evidence, so be as patient as you would be for the EVEN LONGER nonevidence of string theory.

Thus far we are consistant with science, whereas nothing else on the table is because theres nothing else on the table as you agree

so lets check for further prediction and accuracy

Science notes these massive kill offs, periods of life and periods of death... thus far the bible does too, but lets go on with more geology, and more biblical account

Science also notes that there was a massive die off at the end of the jurassic. SOME people say this happened approximately 65 million years ago... but what was the CAUSE of this die off?

Concensus is that a MASSIVE meteor or a small asteroid impacted the earth in the central american region of the earth. Now... WHAT would have then happened and WHY this massive kill?

To put it simply the asteroid would have put MASSIVE amounts of debris into the atmosphere that theoreticly could have lasted hundreds of years... perhaps thousands. At any rate the sun was hidden from view, there was darkess on the earth, volcanoes also adding to the debris and darkness. massive die outs of plants and animal life. The suns rays unable to penetrate the thick gloom covering the earth

Well this is exactly what the bible tells us of the atmosphere in genesis 1

We see DARKNESS... no light... until God says 'LET THERE BE LIGHT'...

Now after a destruction such as we see ending the jurassic. we had MASSIVE debris, thick blackness, and EVENTUALLY the atmosphere began to clear... ONLY allowing some of the suns rays to shine through, and yet the sun and moon and stars would have remained invisable... diffused light, but enough to begin the process AGAIN...

THEN on day 2

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

WHAT is this saying? lolol

Very simply put... in the Hebrew there are 3 'heavens'. "Heaven is used interchangable to refer to our atmosphere, ourter space, and the home of God beyond what we know as the universe.

We will see on later days that this firmament called 'heaven' is our atmosphere

Note that the elements are still somewhat confused and we have water in the atmosphere that divides itself, some around the atmosphere (above it) and some below the atmosphere... oceans rivers lakes... Now this isnt to say ALL the water was in the atmosphere and divided but certainly it says SOME...

this means that OUTSIDE the atmosphere, a water vapor surrounded the earth... this would CERTAINLY be consistant with a huge impact in the central american gulf, sending debris, steam and PLENTY of water into the atmosphere.

Now, do we have any planetary models that fit this description??? We certainly do... venus has a outer layer of water surrounding its atmosphere as well... But do we have any evidence that this may have been the case here on earth?

We certianly do... we have fossile evidence indicating that at one time this entire planet surged into a semitropical paradise from pole to pole, with tropical vegetation growing thickly EVERYWHERE at the same time... This greenhouse effect grew with the clearing of the atmosphere, allowing more heat to hit the earth, and the warmth of the earth couldnt escape as it reached the water vapor, encapsulating it, spreading the warmth of the earth from pole to pole.

but wait... theres so much more

11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13And the evening and the morning were the third day.

So here we see the atmosphere being cleared, and the beginning of the greenhouse effect because of the water vapor also surrounding the atmosphere, beginning to take effect in bringing forth life... the grasses and herbs and shrubs and trees... just as we find in the fossile record

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

NOW... dont say 'well God created the sun on the 4th day? Because thats just the translation... THIS ISNT what the hebrew says. The word 'CREATED' here is not the same as 'created' an genesis 1:1... Gen 1:1 does indeed mean a new creation, but here "God made" REALLY should be interpreted as 'God made TO APPEAR"... SO WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS THE COMPLETE CLEARING of the atmosphere... further enhansing life and the greenhouse effect

20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

and low and behold... LIFE springs from the seas... just as the fossile record indicates happened FIRST... AND SHOWS that BIRDS TOO were brought forth eventually form the sea... just as the fossile record indicates...

Note too that the birds fly in THE HEAVENS... this is an instance where heaven refers to our atmosphere

DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. My opinions are my own. You do not have to accept them if you dislike them.

Dear WolfBitn,

Thank you for your response to my comments to kross.

UF,

Interesting thought

What if GOD Himself put this truth and evidence in stone? What if He Himself leaves written record AND material evidence to prove His claims? Would you be willing to hear that?

If you can show me that the stone was a product of your god, and not some human stone carver, you may have something there.

If you can show me that this written record was indeed written by your god, and not some humans spinning some stories together they have heard rehashed from their ancestors or others, you may have something there.

If you can show me that this alleged material evidence (to prove his claims) can be interpreted in no other way, you may have something there. However, if they are just vague prophecies, or prophecies written down after the fact (I can always tell you the winning lottery numbers after they have been drawn), they are meaningless.

Regards,

UF

well even a human boss has other humans transcribe for him... you give me this and ill give you everything else you ask for

DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. My opinions are my own. You do not have to accept them if you dislike them.

Dear kross,

Thank you for your response to my comments.

Since I can not give you the experience of being indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT, I can not give you the evidence that GOD's word is true and accurate. Since a person without this added intervention by GOD cannot come to a knowledge of the truth, the best you will ever do is seek to find reasons not to believe. Should GOD choose to touch you with HIS love and HIS spirit, then you will understand.

Yes, I know that experiential evidence is no evidence at all and that many will say it is just emotionalism. Until one experiences, one can only cast doubt on what another knows to be real.

Good luck with your research and your search. I pray that your effort is infact an ernest attempt to find GOD and that GOD will bless your effort.

HIS peace

If you cannot give me the experience of being indwelt by the holy spirit, and you cannot provide evidence that such holy spirit exists, what do you expect me to do? You are quite correct that such subjective experiential evidence is no evidence at all, and many will say it is just emotionalism (or something of the equivalent). Afterall, many god-believers of other religions claim the same thing. Who is to say that you are right and they are wrong?

Thank you for your good wishes. I will continue my search for the truth (as it is supported by the evidence).

Regards,

UF

UF,

Interesting thought

What if GOD Himself put this truth and evidence in stone? What if He Himself leaves written record AND material evidence to prove His claims? Would you be willing to hear that?