OneAccord

God's creation WAS perfect, until it brought sin into the world too. Man CHOSE to disobey God and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Because of that choice death, sin and imperfection entered our world. Each individual person DOES need to change. We have been born of the flesh, and we need to be born again in the Spirit. We must change the way we think (Romans 12:1-2). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Your theory is flawed because nothing exists without the Will of God. Nothing was created without God. Sin was not created by any other means than by the Will of God or else it couldn't exist! You deny that God is the creator of all things; every thought, every particle of matter, everything that ever was or ever will be? Do you believe God didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree of knowledge? You deny that God created the Serpent and even before that creation, already knew it would tempt Adam and Eve? Still waiting -SS <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi SS: There's a conversation in progress on this exact topic about whether God created sin and is therefore responsible for it in the Controversial Topics Forum titled "OneAccord's question".

Bingo, SS!

Wow, Shiloh! Interesting post! It seems whenever someone questions the Bush regime, this scripture is automatically pulled out to refute the idea that we have a right to question our government's doings. You can just imagine how many times I've had Romans 13 pulled on me. Now you are saying that not all governments have a stamp of approval, so who's authority is it to decide which ones are worthy and which ones aren't? You're on some slippery ground here.

Hi Colossians: Interesting thread!!!!!!!!! I understand what you are trying to say, sort of, but I don't get what is your point? Are you trying to make a case against 'legalism'? Also, when a person is nop longer under the law, but above it as they walk in the Spirit of Jesus, how should they be living? What should a Christians walking above the law look like in their manner of living?

On the contrary, I think it's a huge issue, as the entire Christian faith is built on the fact that we are all filthy sinners before God. Where did it come from? Man did not create sin, therefore whoever did is responsible for it. If sin is an accidental 'by-product' of creation, then God is responsible to do something about it, rather than punish everyone who is infected by it. If it is not an accident, which since God is perfect, He could not make an imperfect creation, then it must have some purpose or function. And therefore God is still responsible to us for creating sin. If Satan created sin, then he is pretty powerful indeed, and God's creation has run amuck ever since. We know that God is more powerful than Satan, and will ultimately prevail, but meanwhile He could have just healed Eve and Adam instead of banishing them because He is an all powerful healer. Or He could have banished the serpent in the first place, since the serpent was sinning against God, or was he? But apparently God had a different plan, far more wonderful than anything we can ever imagine, the mystery of the ages. This matter of sin is far, far from a non-issue, but is a key issue in the faith.

I got to thinking about this list of pre-requisite beliefs for having a balanced worldview. I think our Christian Worldview should be based on the supreme commandments that Christ laid down for us: Love thy God with all thy heart and Love thy neighbor as thyself. Upon these hang all the theologies and doctrines, oops, I mean, the law and the prophets. The Sermon on the Mount should be the Magna Charta of the Christian Faith and our worldview should be based on it. There is way too much focus on theology, much of which is hotly debated within the church and the cause of much division and hostility among brethren, and not enough of the focus is on the outworkings of being a Christian and the work at hand. Where in this so-called Christian Worldview is any mention of helping the poor, the widow, the stranger? Where is any mention of LOVING God rather than analyzing Him to death? Where is any mention of loving our enemies, going the extra mile for our fellow man, conducting ourselves in such a way as to be lights unto men?

Excellent once again. Unfortunately it's a pipedream, but a it's a good pipedream. I'd love to see it happen.

Excellent article. I think most of the Christians prefer choice #1 because it brings on the Apocolypse faster so that Jesus can come sooner. Ushering in the end of the age.

Excellent Excellent Excellent article so far. I hope folks can read this article for what it says and not sidetrack to other libertartian issues to discredit it. I notice people like to put a label on the source of articles and then discredit the whole thing. This article so far puts a pretty concise face on the argument against this bloody war on terrorism, and has some very valid and reasonable points made. For the sake of concision, let's narrow this article down to it's key points: Foreign Policy Is the Issue Rule #2: It is American foreign policy that has provoked the attacks, not anything inherent in Muslim fundamentalism. Bombing Doesn't Work Rule #3: Bombing foreign countries doesn't end terrorism, it provokes it. This Is a Crime, Not War Rule #4: The terrorist attacks are a criminal matter, not a war. Reverse Positions Rule #5: If you think you or America is entitled to something, reverse the positions and see how you'd react. What Is the Object? Rule #7: There's no way to eliminate all terrorism in the world.

God has revealed Himself in three ways: In creation, in the Bible, and in Jesus. I LOVE the concept of God revealing Himslef in His creation. I don't hear enough about this being preached. I think the entire creation tells the gospel story and reveals many, many truths about God and His plan. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. This is one of my big stumbling stones. I cannot grasp where sin came from, did God create it to test man, did Satan create it, did man create it. Huge theological conundrum. I also have trouble with the idea that every human being since Adam is automatically infected with sin by proxy. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. What is the creative purpose of God? The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love. Aahhh! This statement deserves to be front and center in the Christian faith, just after our declared LOVE for our Creator. The Bible reflects the true and moral character of God; therefore, truth and morals are knowable and absolute, not relative (Exodus 20:1-17). I like this statement, but fear that truth and moral character as revealed in the Bible have become relative to man's interpretation of the Bible.

I think the motivation behind these contracts and such is that a lot of these churches are a branch of a larger organization and the leadership is required to submit statistics and such about the church growth, financial health, etc. If you are not documented on paper and signing the appropriate forms it's diffiuclt to keep track of these stats. Reminds me of Satan's ploy of getting David to number Israel...........

I would say that letter is a pretty good picture of what visiting churches is like for a non-Christian. I found Jesus completely outside of the churches, in fact an unbeliever led me to the Lord, definitely a Holy Spirit thing so no Christians can boast in my salvation. Then I tried to go to church and it's been a pretty sour experience for the most part. My best fellowships and encounters with other Christians have been outside the churches. Not to say that there aren't good people inside some of the churches, but for the most part they are a turn-off. I don't think most folks who are caught up in them realize what a terrible witness they are to unbelievers. I have experienced just about every scenario presented in the letter posted here after I found Christ. Ha! I doubt anyone would tell a new Christian that! I have heard several sermons this year about so-called Lone Ranger Christians. They also teach that you need to get under a shepherd so you don't get led astray. Also reading the Book for yourself, taking your questions to the Father, and trusting the Holy Spirit to teach you causes you to become a heretic if what you discover in the Bible doesn't line up with the pet doctrines being preached.

We ran into this at the church we've been "visiting" for over a year and a half. There are Members and there are Visitors. Members have to sign a contract and then get member privileges like voting in elders and such. Non-members are not allowed to lead Bible studies or sing on the worship team and other stuff. We thought we were members of the Church already so are having trouble with the idea of signing allegiance to a local assembly. Maybe we're just rebellious, that's what they tell us.

I had a lot more luck finding the love of Jesus when I quit looking in the 'churches' for Him. There's a growing number of folks who love Jesus dropping out of the institutionalized religious centers for all the above reasons.

What do you call a Jew who is anti-Zionist?

Since when did we acquire a "righteous Christian government? Blessings, Dad Ernie <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The Christian Right is heavily influencing politics and concern for the poor does not seem to be very high on their agenda.

Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals." -1 Corinthians 15:33 He who walks with wise men will be wise, But the companion of fools will suffer harm. -Proverbs 13:20 1 Cor 15:33 Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals. As a child growing up in an atheist home, I was never befriended by a Christian, nor as an adult navigating through a confusing world was I ever befriended by a Christian. I understand now that it is because they are taught to be separated out from the world. I wonder if I was also considered to be a fool, bad company and an evil companion becuase I did not know Christ. Since becoming a Christian, I was taught in the first church I attended not to keep company with unbelievers. Therefore I forsook my very dearest and closest friends of many years in order to follow Jesus and not be corrupted and defiled and polluted by their ungodly ways. I have since been pretty much a loner, and my husband also, because I have not found new close friends within my church community, mainly they are more like Sunday aquaintances and 'brothers and sisters in the Lord' but nowhere the intimacy and fellowship I used to have. I feel like I was perhaps a bad witness to my old friends of the love of God, He who so loved the world, in shunning them as I was taught. I have also become confused about what Christian love is, if it cannot be expressed in friendships with the unsaved.

I got an even better idea, let's nuke France, then they'll know what a God-fearing nation we really are!!!! They will finally see the light!!!!!!!!!! Let's take this world for Christ, one evil country at a time!!!!!!! Onward, Christian Soldiers!!!!!

Actually you would need to back up to Samuel's oration BEFORE the selection of Saul. God never wanted to give them a king at all, and He warned them sternly through the mouth of His prophet Samuel what would happen: 1 Samuel 8:10 So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to the people who had asked of him a king. 11 He said, "This will be the procedure of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and place {them} for himself in his chariots and among his horsemen and they will run before his chariots. 12 "He will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and of fifties, and {some} to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 "He will also take your daughters for perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 "He will take the best of your fields and your vineyards and your olive groves and give {them} to his servants. 15 "He will take a tenth of your seed and of your vineyards and give to his officers and to his servants. 16 "He will also take your male servants and your female servants and your best young men and your donkeys and use {them} for his work. 17 "He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants. 18 "Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day." Also, I think the tone in which many of you are addressing a newcomer to this board is quite telling.

Here's an article for you Kuada, that speaks very eloquently to your original post: Recovering a hijacked faith By Jim Wallis | July 13, 2004 MANY OF US feel that our faith has been stolen, and it's time to take it back. A misrepresentation of Christianity has taken place. Many people around the world now think Christian faith stands for political commitments that are almost the opposite of its true meaning. How did the faith of Jesus come to be known as pro-rich, pro-war, and pro-American? What has happened? How do we get back to a historic, biblical, and genuinely evangelical faith rescued from its contemporary distortions? That rescue operation is crucial today in the face of a social crisis that cries out for prophetic religion. The problem is clear in the political arena, where strident voices claim to represent Christians when they clearly don't speak for most of us. We hear politicians who love to say how religious they are but fail to apply the values of faith to their leadership and policies. When we take back our faith, we will discover that faith challenges the powers that be to do justice for the poor instead of preaching a "prosperity gospel" and supporting politicians who further enrich the wealthy. We will remember that faith hates violence and tries to reduce it and exerts a fundamental presumption against war instead of justifying it in God's name. We will see that faith creates community from racial, class, and gender divisions, prefers international community over nationalist religion and that "God bless America" is found nowhere in the Bible. And we will be reminded that faith regards matters such as the sacredness of life and family bonds as so important that they should never be used as ideological symbols or mere political pawns in partisan warfare. The media like to say, "Oh, then you must be the religious left." No, and the very question is the problem. Just because a religious right has fashioned itself for political power in one predictable ideological guise does not mean those who question this political seduction must be their opposite political counterpart. The best public contribution of religion is precisely not to be ideologically predictable or a loyal partisan. To always raise the moral issues of human rights, for example, will challenge both left- and right-wing governments who put power above principles. Religious action is rooted in a much deeper place than "rights"-- that being the image of God in every human being. Similarly, when the poor are defended on moral or religious grounds, it is not "class warfare," as the rich will always charge, but rather a direct response to the overwhelming focus in the Scriptures, which claims they are regularly neglected, exploited, and oppressed by wealthy elites, political rulers, and indifferent affluent populations. Those Scriptures don't simply endorse the social programs of liberals or conservatives but make clear that poverty is indeed a religious issue, and the failure of political leaders to help uplift those in poverty will be judged a moral failing. It is because religion takes the problem of evil so seriously that it must always be suspicious of too much concentrated power -- politically and economically -- either in totalitarian regimes or in huge multinational corporations that now have more wealth and power than many governments. It is indeed our theology of evil that makes us strong proponents of both political and economic democracy -- not because people are so good but because they often are not and need clear safeguards and strong systems of checks and balances to avoid the dangerous accumulations of power and wealth. It's why we doubt the goodness of all superpowers and the righteousness of empires in any era, especially when their claims of inspiration and success invoke theology and the name of God. Given human tendencies for self-delusion and deception, is it any wonder that hardly a religious body in the world regards the ethics of unilateral and preemptive war as "just"? Religious wisdom suggests that the more overwhelming the military might, the more dangerous its capacity for self and public deception. Powerful nations dangerously claim to "rid the world of evil" but often do enormous harm in their self-appointed vocation to do so. The loss of religion's prophetic vocation is dangerous for any society. Who will uphold the dignity of economic and political outcasts? Who will question the self-righteousness of nations and their leaders? Who will question the recourse to violence and rush to wars, long before any last resort has been unequivocally proven? Who will not allow God's name to be used to simply justify ourselves, instead of calling us to accountability? In an election year, the particular religiosity of a candidate, or even how devout he might be, is less important than how his religious and/or moral commitments and values shape political vision and policy commitments. Understanding the moral compass a candidate brings to his public life and how his convictions shape his political priorities is the true litmus test. Jim Wallis is convener of Call to Renewal and executive director of Sojourners.

He also gave us mercy and forgiveness.

Shiloh 357 My facts are better than your facts....