~Magdalena~

What do you say to a person who rejects the truth? Even after the truth is pointed out from the Word itself, what do you say, and how are we to act toward that individual? Depends on which truth they happen to be rejecting. A great number of those obsessed with the fallacious notion that God has left it in their hands to invasively play Holy Spirit and conscience to others seem to constantly reject this truth: Matthew 7:1-5 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye , but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. The "trick" here of course being that once the beam is gone, so also will be gone the obsession with others' "motes" as well as the delusion that God has appointed us the task of removing them. As the Lord Himself would put it: "Thou art not far from the kingdom of God." We aren't saved by our beliefs or which dogmas we subscribe to, not even our beliefs and/or dogmas ABOUT Christ. We are saved by Christ, by Him and only Him, not our ideas about Him and not the religions we build around Him.

Such a shame you appear to completely misunderstand those verses. For starters, a little casual knowledge of Greek available from any concordance or a site such as greekbiblestudy.org goes a long way. And then we have the matter of context (most notably with regard to quoting things like the book of Job) ... context is our friend. When the word of truth gets rightly divided instead of chopped into splintered shards of facile "proof texting" expedience ... a much clearer picture emerges. Lest we forget, the devil also enjoyed quoting scripture out of context to attempt to prove his point. This is not intended to imply you have allegiance with the devil of course; but by using similar methods any one of us can and will err.

Geez. Anyone who believes the proper way to raise a healthy child begins by breaking its will and subjecting it to abusive misinterpretation of all its actions and needs should never be regarded as authoritative in any way, shape or form. Sorry Dobson, you had most thinking people of faith at "hello" when you published massive tomes advocating the attitudes and practices of abuse as the "godly" way to rear children. You get no quarter here for dissing the president and playing your tiresome little party politics. Wake up, nobody's buying the "Christianity=Right-Wing-Agenda" brand of koolaid anymore. It has long since expired its sell-by date.

Not just the worldly. The religious, too. In fact, more the religious than anything else. Satan would be the first, foremost, most hardcore prosecuting attorney of perfectionism and legalism. Accuser of the brethren and NOBODY gets "off the hook" with him... he DESPISES the gospel because it declares absolute incontrovertible mercy to the most corrupt and vile sinner and nothing Satan with all his accusations of how horrible your attitude, behavior, lifestyle, etc. has been can touch that. he CANT TOUCH THIS!!

Think you're onto something serious there. Most people believe the greatest deceptions to be in the "obvious" things. Sorry, but if you can see something as "wrong" then guess what: IT'S NOT A "DECEPTION", PEOPLE!!! Deception would be those things that are very very wrong but appear very very RIGHT to us -- to US, BELIEVERS, the "elect" if you will. What appears more right and good and correct than that very subtle but hideously corrosive, destructive legalism that masquerades as "holiness" and "obedience" and "getting right with God"? Not to mention all the many variations of poisonous disgusting lies that portray divine love as something either overtly abusive or permitting of abuse to be included, and disses real divine love -- you know, the kind that's tender, patient, full of mercy and compassion, always putting the needs -- AND YES, FEELINGS -- of others first? -- as some great "evil" to be eschewed -- why that would be nothing short of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost itself!! so yes you are onto something. now sit back and see how it will make the dragon froth at the mouth in rage -- and note whom he will speak through to express that rage!!

These do not pose the true dangers. They only catalyze them. The true dangers, the real deceptions -- the things that can and would (and sadly, in some cases, HAVE) deceived the "very elect" -- would be the things forged in reaction to those things. If we wish to "not remain ignorant of the enemy's devices" then we must not look to what gets thrown in front of our eyes and appears as if obvious, but what results from that, to find where the enemy hides and lurks and what he conceals there. Love does not originate in the world; least of all, "love to all". It originates with Christ, and we throw it away at our own peril and the peril of all souls whom He died to save. We must never forget that the real offense of the Cross does not lie in some religious repackaging of the same old garbage we've been fed all our lives, "Be good OR ELSE," but in the glorious truth of the GOSPEL, the GOOD news for SINNERS. What would this good news be, and why does it offend so much, and in particular, offend THE RELIGIOUS rather than the "worldlings"? Plain and simply, because the Gospel takes the power right out of our hands. It announces what GOD has done, the glory of which lays us in the dust. We don't have any "power" there; we simply act as one load of losers and beggars telling another load of losers and beggars where to get treated like winners and fed, anyway. The gospel consists, quite simply, of the announcement that God is faithful to the faithless, has mercy on the merciless, and acts righteously toward the unrighteous, returning good for our evil. It consists of proclaiming bread for thieves, pardon for the unquestionably guilty, and love for rebels. Everyone gets "paid" the same. Banquet seats for people who have no right to a ticket because they are dirty and sinful. Sinners, come, for the Lamb of God has paid the bill and it’s not going to appear on our charge anywhere, ever. And as a free gift, we literally have no obligation whatsoever either TO receive it or FOR receiving it. We get urged to receive it for the joy it will bring, but remaining in need of it after receiving it does not result in the gift being snatched away and a voice from heaven suddenly proclaiming it All Just A Trick, "sorry, that's only for those who demonstrate, in response to receiving it, that they really never needed it in the first place." That would be "Dumbo's magick feather" religion, Cain's fruit basket, not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. But human beings, especially "religious" ones, don't want that. The Pharisees had the same issue, why do you think they rejected Christ? We don't want a God who loves our enemies, who pours out gracious kindness and mercy on them and bids us to do likewise in order to demonstrate ourselves HIS children. No no no ... we want one who will come in flaming fire and take vengeance and put them in their place because how DARE they mock US and how DARE they contend against US and how DARE they bring that lawless Gospel stuff around confusing everyone with the idea that God ALREADY loves them before the foundation of the world in Christ -- no, durnit!, you gotta crawl first and be sorry and EARN that love like ... like ... well, like WE DID!! Only we didn't, people. We didn't. We NEVER did. We only crawled and felt remorse for our sins and moaned our wretchedness because we got LOVED by God FIRST ... not the other way around. We only learn love because He first loves US -- while we remained yet sinners; while we remained rebels and enemies of His throne, then and there He laid down His life for US. Of course we should never return like dogs to our own vomit or like pigs to our own muck, but that does not mean we should forget precisely from what cesspit we got taken, or by Whose method. (And indeed, if we did not get lifted by Love, His Love, and only His Love, but worked our way out of ruin through "conviction", then we have not entered through the True Door, and instead have climbed in some other way, as all thieves and robbers before us, and we have not the faith of righteous Abel, but only the prideful fruit basket of Cain who slew him.) Legalism, not antinomianism, remains the true blight destroying the churches today, and those who ignore this blight and conflate legalism with "holiness" and "obedience" do so at their own peril, as well as the taint and peril of every soul they influence thereafter. For in this alone does the Gospel get discarded and replaced by a return to lawkeeping for reference rather than relationship. And in this resides the true essence of apostasy as defined by the New Testament, where a very angel of light himself, as it were, comes down from heaven bearing "another gospel" and instead of turning our backs like Paul admonishes, we embrace it, because we don't really understand God's love for us and we still think we must make ourselves good somehow, make ourselves obey, make ourselves holy, to be His. Cain's fruit basket all over again. To clarify, let's revisit the simple classic Lutheran-style division of Law vs. Gospel here: ALL of scripture is EITHER what God commands/demands under penalty OR what He promises/provides freely by grace. Here is Law and Gospel contrasted: "Do" or "Done." Moses or Jesus. God the accountant older brother OR God the Father of the Prodigal. Advice OR announcement. Sinai OR the cross. Threat OR comfort. Blessing OR curse. You do it or else -- OR -- God did and praise. Martin Luther himself stated that if we "get" this, we demonstrate ourselves true theologians (those who rightly handle and divide the Word of Truth) even without the degree. So if you don't know this, learn it; and if you learn it, use it. ~Magz, usin' it RIGHT HERE. p.s. some of the wording used herein to express these ideas has been shamelessly pilfered and paraphrased from an excellent article on the subject of law and grace, and what the Gospel is and isn't, by the "Internet Monk", which you can read here for yourselves: http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-lawgospel-rant Enjoy!

GOOD for you, Fez!! It's very encouraging to see a man step up to the plate here with the truth on this matter. Going to step out of this thread now, to do a little self-management of my own regarding my own issues -- namely, not to get embroiled in endless controversy arguing the point. Truth has been spoken, and God, not Magdalena, bears the responsibility of turning the lights on in other people's hearts and minds. So ... *wave* ....

Amen. The solution that CAN work, and that won't damage someone else in the process, lies here.

Please don't take offense at this but your lust happens to be your responsibility to micromanage -- not hers, not other women's and not the church's. You need to stop regarding this as her issue; it clearly hasn't been her issue at all, but yours, and only yours, from the start. If you make it an issue with her, you will wound her heart, and brother, no matter how much you struggle, it's not worth it to do that. Please seriously consider taking responsibility for yourself instead of making this her problem. PLEASE. Attraction and lust are two different things. Also, as children of God we do not want to cause any to stumble. So I must say that not only is this his and her issue, but ours also. We bear one anothers burdens...this is biblical. It most certainly would NOT be Biblical to COMPEL another to bear your burden, however. Again, his lust, or attraction, whatever you want to call it, resides in his mind only. It remains his responsibility to manage, not hers. The problem with not recognizing it as such would be where will it end? Where will the line be drawn? Because those inclined to palm off their issue onto someone else will never be satisfied. Having been in churches where young ladies dressed completely "modestly" (no cleavage showing, full skirts below the knee neither clinging nor tight, etc.) this did nothing to deter men from being "attracted" to them or complaining that the young lady and not himself should somehow bear responsibility for this. Again, suggesting that anyone else should micromanage another person's mind, heart, and above all, choices, would be nothing short of utter foolishness. Folks may rail against this all they please but it will not change reality one bit: YOU, not someone else, bear responsibility for guarding and directing your thoughts. Why? Simple: no one else CAN. No one can reach inside you and make you think one way rather than the other, or steer your thoughts in some direction not another. Case in point: despite speaking logic and truth here some still insist on pretending the situation to be anything other than precisely what it so obviously reveals itself to be: a case of one person trying to make another responsible for things only he could possibly affect, rather than taking responsibility himself. That in itself should tell you how impossible it remains to try to alter someone else's thoughts, when even speaking the truth cannot shake people out of such a predisposition nor others from supporting the delusions and fantasies that feed that predisposition and then pretending to extract a Biblical case for retaining them no less! God have mercy on us all.

Please don't take offense at this but your lust happens to be your responsibility to micromanage -- not hers, not other women's and not the church's. You need to stop regarding this as her issue; it clearly hasn't been her issue at all, but yours, and only yours, from the start. If you make it an issue with her, you will wound her heart, and brother, no matter how much you struggle, it's not worth it to do that. Please seriously consider taking responsibility for yourself instead of making this her problem. PLEASE.

Agree totally on these things being false teachings. Let's add to that pile the constant effort to link faith with specific political agendas. Jesus stated, "My kingdom is NOT of this world," and He meant it. End of story.