PhoenixJLD

My belief would be yes. Jesus died for all our sins. If killing one's self is a sin, that is included: there is only one unforgiveable sin, and that's not suicide. As far as denomination, I'm a mainstream evangelical, neither Calvinist nor Arminian but somewhere in between.

I don't believe that's the case. We are called to spread the Gospel. Sure, we can stand on the street corner and preach... but what good does that do? People will not listen unless they know we care. To truly care for someone you need to just be their friend. Of course, if your non-Christian friends are influencing you to sin, the friendship is not good for either of you.

Yes and yes.

Good points. Your impression is right, LadyC, so maybe thinking of myself as homosexual is part of the problem - I just assumed that with feeling attraction toward the same sex, and nothing toward the opposite sex, the label had to come along although I hate the thought of it. I have no desire ever to act on my attractions. Your last paragraph is what I've been trying to argue for here.

The Bible teaches that sin begins in the heart. The desire to sin is just as sinful as committing the act. Lusting after a married woman is just as sinful as if you had carried the act out in the flesh. The Bible makes no distinction between the two, really. Homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God and therefore, it is sin to desire the opposite sex as it is to carry out the desire. According to the Bible, not only should we not carry out sin, but there should not be anything in our heart to prompt it in the first place. So yes, having the feelings and the orientation is as sinful as acting on them. There is no distinction between desire or lust and sin itself... but there is a distinction between attraction and desire. Attraction is a temptation, a thought that you really can't control. When you dwell on that thought and allow it to take root, it becomes a desire. That is sin. If all "feelings" or thoughts that lead to sin are sinful themselves, then it can't be true that God provides a way of escape.

Evidently. Which makes all desire sin, and 1 Corinthians 10:13 a lie.

I figured someone would say that. If there is a problem with me that prevents God from answering my prayers in that one particular area, I would very much like to know what it is... Maybe you dont really want deliverance. It could other things as well, or a combination of issues. But God is faithful to His Word, so there is no problem on his end. Whatever the issue is, God is not to blame, you are. Perhaps you don't realise how distressing it is to hear someone say this, after years of begging and pleading for the removal of these desires. Sanctification does not come instantly. Can man lead a perfect life? Can you provide scripture? The fact remains that God is faithful to His Word. No emotional appeal against me will change that fact. I don't know all of the factors in Phoenix's life and am not pretending to. But God is not holding anyone back, or keeping them sin. Often, we burn the candle at both ends. We want God's help, but are not willing to completely surrender. God is neither responsible for someone for someone's entrance into this kind of orientation, nor is He the reason someone remains in it. What Phoenix needs is true deliverance and for that he/she needs pastoral counseling. It is not about leading a perfect life, but it is about obedience. See what you're doing here? You don't want to think that maybe homosexual attraction is not sin but temptation, and that God might not deliver it from you if you ask. So it's much easier to say that there's something wrong in my life, even though you don't have a clue who I am. Maybe I don't have enough faith... but the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. Maybe I don't really want to change, or I haven't asked. What about all the nights I have spent crying and begging God to deliver me? Yes, God is faithful to His word. He has promised that although we will be tempted, with the temptation He will also provide a way of escape, so that we'll be able to bear it. And always, He has done that. I'm not perfect, but in this area I've chosen obedience... not instead of temptation, but in spite of it.

I figured someone would say that. If there is a problem with me that prevents God from answering my prayers in that one particular area, I would very much like to know what it is... Maybe you dont really want deliverance. It could other things as well, or a combination of issues. But God is faithful to His Word, so there is no problem on his end. Whatever the issue is, God is not to blame, you are. I was going to post very similar words to Shiloh. You have to call it what it is - that is loving your brother/sister in Christ. Why would God allow you to continue in what He calls sin? I was once living in sin AS A CHRISTIAN - and the Lord pulled me up on it - I obeyed. You may not be a practising gay person but if you are still going through the motions in your mind, it means you still have the desires for it. You have to release these desires to the Lord. Don't get offended when folks are trying to point out the truth. I had it pointed out to me from God - be obedient and release the hold. I'm not offended. If I was, I wouldn't have brought this up. The thing is, I believe it's temptation I am living with... but not sin. I am not and never have been a "practising gay person." I feel physical and emotional attraction to people of the same sex, but have never allowed it to go past that to desire or lust - which is wrong. You could compare it with the temptation any unmarried Christian might go through. 2 Corinthians 10:5 talks about "bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ." That is what I am learning to do. Then I can release those thoughts and attractions to Him, who gives me strength to withstand the temptation. Maybe someday He'll see fit to take it away altogether - but that will be in His time, not mine.

I figured someone would say that. If there is a problem with me that prevents God from answering my prayers in that one particular area, I would very much like to know what it is...

We don't even agree on whether it is a sin or not. I won't hold that against you. Seriously, you have to follow what your own conscience tells you. I would never try to change that. To not act in faith IS sin. We have to follow what the WORD teaches us. Our own conscience is falliable. Where there is disagreement between the two, the Word wins! Doesn't the bible talk about the seared conscious? People given over to a debased mind? Yes. But what I'm saying is that if a person feels in their heart something is wrong and they do it anyway then for them it is sin. Rom 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. 1 Corinthians 8:8-11 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol

We don't even agree on whether it is a sin or not. I won't hold that against you. Seriously, you have to follow what your own conscience tells you. I would never try to change that. To not act in faith IS sin. Exactly.

Yes... that's all I'm trying to say here. Each of us has our own weaknesses, and we need to rely on God to keep from falling to them. Homosexuality is just one of many, and I can't understand why people would say this one weakness should keep people from serving God more than any other. I can tell you one thing, since fighting this battle my faith has grown more than it has the entire rest of my life.

Being set free is different the still having the desires but not fulfilling them, living asexually. That is what I am disagreeing with you on. The first is from God, the second from man. God never fails, but man does. What if God chooses not to set them free? I am going to be very open here. I've been a Christian pretty much my whole life, and always believed homosexuality is wrong. When I discovered that was my orientation... and it wasn't something I wanted or chose... I prayed daily begging God to free me from it. He chose not to, at least not so far. Does that mean that I haven't been relying on Him, or that I've been trying to "fix" it on my own? At least to me, that answer is a very clear no. What if there is a purpose in it all? If someday He does allow me to fall in love with someone of the opposite sex, then I'll be so grateful... but one thing that has been clear in my mind through all of it is that this "orientation" is only a temptation. I feel attraction to people of the same sex, but as long as I rely on God to help me not to entertain those thoughts and allow them to become lust, I am in His will. I am prepared to live a completely asexual life if that is what is required of me. And my situation isn't unique. Do you think someone like me should be kept from serving God in the ministry if that is what He calls us to?

I am thinking a lot of the confusion is coming from how our culture has determined to label "sexual orientation." God made mankind "male and female" and designed the man to be joined (physically and spiritually) with his wife (a woman). This is not "strait" nor "heterosexual." This is God's design - our design - how we are created to be. Man-to-man or woman-to-woman sexual attraction is outside of God's design for us. Men are not designed to be joined to men and women are not designed to be joined to women. Just as sex outside of marriage is a corruption of God's design, so is man-to-man "joining" and woman-to-woman "joining" (I say that because sex is more than physical stimulation). What also needs to be considered is that the Lord actually calls this deed "an abomination." Now if the Lord speaks harshly thus against this "behavior", is it wise for us to dance around the issue? Make sense? Paul says it's good for a man not to marry. Therefore, we could say an asexual lifestyle is also God's design - for those who choose it, and it isn't easy. So if someone has a homosexual orientation but decides to live asexually, why should they have to "become straight" in order to serve?

If the homosexual minister promotes the sin and preaches that it's not wrong to be gay, that is not okay. Agreed.